I must really be a simpleton...

[braheem24]

Ethanol is driving up the cost of beef, chicken, ect and causing under developed nations people to starve

Ethanol is derived from Corn, If under developed countries are starving it's because of education not corn shortage.

If you can grow corn, you can grow beans which do not require being fed corn to grow.

Beans do not cause heart attacks.
Beans do not cause strokes.
Beans do not cause cancer.
Beans do not cause hormone imbalances.

Beans have more protein then corn.
Beans are lower in simple sugars then corn.
Beans contain more fiber then corn.

No one is dying from lack of meat they're dying from it, look around you.

Don't take my work for it, Do some research, look what happened to the life expectancy in this country during the great depression.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0928172530.htm

[fjpod]

Because there is such hostility towards "big oil" coming from the left in this country....they try and block everything to do with gasoline. If we used our oil here, we wouldnt have to import...we could actually export alot too.

Then in 10, 20 years or so when we can actually have a viable alternative we could stop using it. Because of this resistance we see huge inflation of food and just about everything else.

Ethanol is driving up the cost of beef, chicken, ect and causing under developed nations people to starve

C'mon, you don't really believe that. We import or oil from the middle east because originally it wasa lot cheaper and easier to extract from the ground. IOW, it was easier for big oil to make a buck. Now, however, we have to sacrifice American soldiers to keep the oil flowing. That price is too high. So back in the states we try to promote conservation, alternative f fuels, etc , and you think it is some communist plot?

[Johns]

Ethanol is driving up the cost of beef, chicken, ect and causing under developed nations people to starve

I really hope that was an attempt at humor (which would be a good sign).

It is usually the fault of local governments and warlords that cause people in under-developed nations to starve. Billions upon billions of dollars are poured into Haiti and Africa with little or nothing to show for it.

Ethanol? Really?
(Incidentally, I try to avoid Ethanol, as it heats up the engine faster, breaks down the viscosity of the oil, and reduces you MPG)

[MikeAurelius]

So back in the states we try to promote conservation, alternative f fuels, etc , and you think it is some communist plot?

According to MC, it is not a communist plot, it is a left-wing socialist plot. Get it straight!!

[Wes]

Re: the price of gas.
I was in Korea ten years ago, and it was 2,800 Won or roughly $2.50 per liter at the exchange rate at the time. That's almost $10 a gallon. Gas prices are lower in the US than almost anywhere else in the world, other than major oil exporters. Venezuela come to mind as being cheaper.
Has it occurred to anyone that it's intelligent policy to buy all "their" oil while conserving "ours" for when "they" run out?

Again, Braheem offers good insight into the middle east issues.

Johns is correct in his position that food shortages in Africa and Haiti have more to do with warlords than ethanol driving up meat prices (although it does drive them up here). The US has gone into Haiti to build and rebuild their infrastructure four times in that nation's 200+ year history as a self governing entity, but they don't maintain it. That's all I'll say on that subject because I'm not looking to get Watsoned.

[Wes]

According to MC, it is not a communist plot, it is a left-wing socialist plot. Get it straight!!

Same thing.

[Uncle Fester]

According to MC, it is not a communist plot, it is a left-wing socialist plot. Get it straight!!

Same thing.

Tea Party, Mitt Romney--- same thing...

(sorry Steve! and Johns)

[Wes]

Tea Party, Mitt Romney--- same thing...

(sorry Steve!)

Not originally, but by 2012, close enough.

[MasterCrafter]

Yes, bickering.

Attachment 10238

The point is are you able to have a respectful conversation with someone you disagree with or not? All I'm doing is reminding people to be respectful. I have no desire or need to apologize for that.

If you want to insult and rant and rage at people you disagree with, then there are certainly many places where that can be done. OptiBoard, however, is not one of them.

I can have a respectful conversation

But look at all the posts after your comment, do these guys show respect?

This board is dying and becoming very boring because of heavy handed Admins.... if leftists argue and belittle people on here it's always ok... if an argument comes from the "right" you get all upset Steve. We know that you slant left, but why stop debate?

If you only want 1 point of view , once again , what is the point? if everybody agrees where is the debate?

This in a nutshell shows what is wrong with America today, The left always wants to shut down debate and declare they are right no disagreements.

Point out where I disrespected somebody


Braheem....do some research yourself.....if you did you would have known that even AL Bore has said first generation of bio-fuels was a mistake....first gen bio-fuels = ethanol... Bore himself said it was causing people to starve... so please in the future do research from multiple sources and stop reading left wing blogs

[Wes]

Biofuels are a fools game, but what does that have to do with Braheems point about the food issue?

[MikeAurelius]

I can have a respectful conversation

But look at all the posts after your comment, do these guys show respect?

This board is dying and becoming very boring because of heavy handed Admins.... if leftists argue and belittle people on here it's always ok... if an argument comes from the "right" you get all upset Steve. We know that you slant left, but why stop debate?

If you only want 1 point of view , once again , what is the point? if everybody agrees where is the debate?

This in a nutshell shows what is wrong with America today, The left always wants to shut down debate and declare they are right no disagreements.

Point out where I disrespected somebody


Braheem....do some research yourself.....if you did you would have known that even AL Bore has said first generation of bio-fuels was a mistake....first gen bio-fuels = ethanol... Bore himself said it was causing people to starve... so please in the future do research from multiple sources and stop reading left wing blogs

With respect sir, any time a discussion starts, you weigh in with the viewpoint of the "right", and declare yourself to be absolutely correct, to the point of being close to verbal abuse. I've been on the receiving end of your rants several times, and quite honestly, sir, you are part of the "problem".

Politics aside, can you have a discussion without inserting politics and especially right-wing politics?

[Wes]

What we need to do is harness as much energy as we can from as many sources as we can and conserve fossil fuels as much as possible, for future uses where they cannot be replicated easily. Wave and wind power are there for the taking. Solar needs development. Geothermal is easily harnessed and there's enough for thousands of years. Electric cars/battery technology needs development. Fusion seriously needs to be researched. That's the power of the future, the power that will take us to the stars.
The left pushes disastrous social policy. Both push disastrous foreign policy. The right tends to reject science. The left manipulates science. Traditional Religion infects the rights thinking process, while cultural Marxism infects the left. Both sides drive me bonkers.

[Wes]

With respect sir, any time a discussion starts, you weigh in with the viewpoint of the "right", and declare yourself to be absolutely correct, to the point of being close to verbal abuse. I've been on the receiving end of your rants several times, and quite honestly, sir, you are part of the "problem".

Politics aside, can you have a discussion without inserting politics and especially right-wing politics?

The right wing is not always wrong about everything, and neither is the left. Both wings are wrong far more often than they are correct, mostly because they're both woefully uninformed (or lying) about what's really going on in the world. Americans are some of the most ignorant people in the world; almost completely controlled by political propaganda.

[braheem24]

Braheem....do some research yourself.....if you did you would have known that even AL Bore has said first generation of bio-fuels was a mistake....first gen bio-fuels = ethanol... Bore himself said it was causing people to starve... so please in the future do research from multiple sources and stop reading left wing blogs

I have my own opinion opinion, Al gore's opinion is as credible to me as yours.

Please try to respond to MY opinion not Al's and please try to respond with your opinion not Boehener's.

Al can have his own conversation with you.

[MikeAurelius]

The right wing is not always wrong about everything, and neither is the left. Both wings are wrong far more often than they are correct, mostly because they're both woefully uninformed (or lying) about what's really going on in the world. Americans are some of the most ignorant people in the world; almost completely controlled by political propaganda.

I agree, Wes.

[Uncle Fester]

The right wing is not always wrong about everything, and neither is the left. Both wings are wrong far more often than they are correct, mostly because they're both woefully uninformed (or lying) about what's really going on in the world. Americans are some of the most ignorant people in the world; almost completely controlled by political propaganda.

Like Mike I agree and would however venture 10% of voters are influenced by propaganda.

That's why pollsters can often tell you what district/precint will determine an election in a toss-up state. And control of Statehouses drawing congressional lines after a census is so important to both parties.

[Uncle Fester]

So Wes does the recently released UN report sway your opinion that this attack could have been done by others than the Assad government?

Braheem- Where do you see the weapons going now? I was thinking Iran or most likely to Hezbollah in the Bakkah Valley but that may be a problem if he is overthrown and retreats to the Alawite controlled coast. So maybe, just maybe, it may be in his best interest to give them up after all. We can hope...

[Steve Machol]

I can have a respectful conversation

But look at all the posts after your comment, do these guys show respect?

Exactly my point.

This board is dying and becoming very boring because of heavy handed Admins....

Really? What 'heavy-handed' actions have I or anyone taken? Please be specific. I would really like to know what you are talking about.

...if leftists argue and belittle people on here it's always ok... if an argument comes from the "right" you get all upset Steve. We know that you slant left, but why stop debate?

Again what is your proof of this? Generally over that past few years I have kept my personal opinions out of OptiBoard. Please provide evidence of your accusations. And to be honest, I usually avoid even reading political threads because of people liek you who believe they are always right and that the there is a massive left-wing conspiracy directed against them.

If you only want 1 point of view , once again , what is the point? if everybody agrees where is the debate?

When did I say that exactly? How did you end up interpreting a relatively polite request to behave in a respectful manner into a desire to only see '1 point of view'? Again please provide evidence of your accusations.

Point out where I disrespected somebody

I never said you did. YOU were the one that decided to attack me and OptiBoard just because I asked EVERYONE to try and be respectful of each other. That post was not directed at you but nonetheless YOU were the only one that decided to turn such an innocuous request into an attempt on my part to 'slant left' as you put it.

Honestly I am a lot more in agreement with the so-called 'right-wingers' in this debate than you think. However I do not use this board to advance my own political agenda. Can you say the same?

[fjpod]

I can have a respectful conversation

But look at all the posts after your comment, do these guys show respect?

This board is dying and becoming very boring because of heavy handed Admins.... if leftists argue and belittle people on here it's always ok... if an argument comes from the "right" you get all upset Steve. We know that you slant left, but why stop debate?

If you only want 1 point of view , once again , what is the point? if everybody agrees where is the debate?

This in a nutshell shows what is wrong with America today, The left always wants to shut down debate and declare they are right no disagreements.

Point out where I disrespected somebody


Braheem....do some research yourself.....if you did you would have known that even AL Bore has said first generation of bio-fuels was a mistake....first gen bio-fuels = ethanol... Bore himself said it was causing people to starve... so please in the future do research from multiple sources and stop reading left wing blogs

C'mon, we're having a discussion. There is usually more than one side to a discussion. But automatically blaming everything on the left or the right...Bush vs Obama is just axe grinding.

[Johns]

As the original poster, I couldn't agree with Steve any more. I almost didn't post this thread because of all the "wingers" that might pile on.

The subject was about bombing people in another country, to punish them for something they may, or may not have done. Like Steve, I find myself more in agreement with those I once opposed, because it's not a "right/left" thing...it's an American people thing. My identity is not with the political party that I do or don't vote for, and I've never gotten the impression that it was with Steve either.

I have often thought about how cool it would be to own a forum like Optiboard. The main reason I would never want to is because of all the crap I see Steve putting up with. He practices restraint like I would never be able to do. If I owned this forum, you would see the word "Banned" next to a lot more names than you see now.

[Steve Machol]

C'mon, we're having a discussion. There is usually more than one side to a discussion. But automatically blaming everything on the left or the right...Bush vs Obama is just axe grinding.

As the original poster, I couldn't agree with Steve any more. I almost didn't post this thread because of all the "wingers" that might pile on.

The subject was about bombing people in another country, to punish them for something they may, or may not have done. Like Steve, I find myself more in agreement with those I once opposed, because it's not a "right/left" thing...it's an American people thing. My identity is not with the political party that I do or don't vote for, and I've never gotten the impression that it was with Steve either.

I have often thought about how cool it would be to own a forum like Optiboard. The main reason I would never want to is because of all the crap I see Steve putting up with. He practices restraint like I would never be able to do. If I owned this forum, you would see the word "Banned" next to a lot more names than you see now.

Thanks guys. The sad thing is that I really would like to see some intelligent and thoughtful discussion of the issues. However some people simply cannot engage in such discussions without turning them into political rants and those people are the ones that ruin it for everyone else. I think this is part of the anonymity afforded by the Internet and the lack of face-to-face contact with people.

[Fezz]

This board is dying and becoming very boring because of heavy handed Admins.... if leftists argue and belittle people on here it's always ok... if an argument comes from the "right" you get all upset Steve. We know that you slant left, but why stop debate?

Can you provide examples of "heavy handed admins"?

If this place is so boring, why do you continue to come here and post your political viewpoints, slants, rants, and rhetoric? There are many other sites out there devoted to such nonsense! I seriously doubt that you are going to change any minds on here.

Steve has done a very fair job at allowing members to express their viewpoints. I would not be as generous. If you don't like it...........find another sandbox! Simple!

[fjpod]

I agree with Fezz (and Steve) that there is not a heavy handed censorship on this forum. It is primarily for the edification of optical professionals, and a chance to discuss the ways of the world from time to time.

I, particularly don't like when individuals begin to spout rhetoric, whether religious, sexist, political or whatever, and have been known to call out people for it. Mastercrafter, I don't mean to direct this at you in particular, but if you are going to throw irons into the fire, you have to expect some pushback.

[MikeAurelius]

*snipped for clarity* I think this is part of the anonymity afforded by the Internet and the lack of face-to-face contact with people.

There is a solution to that.

Require every member to use their real name and use a verification system to ensure that the people signing up are actually who they say they are. I know of a couple of forums that do this, and the amount of baloney dropped significantly when people had to use their real names on posts. This isn't a porn forum where you want to hide your identity, it is a professional forum where you should be proud of the content you post.

Those that will not use their real names can be removed from posting activities. I know some will claim that their business doesn't allow them to post on-line with their real names, but that is a baloney argument. Perhaps if your signature line gave your employers name and your position that might be true, but for discussions involving the general practice and art of optometry, it is nothing but baloney. (Oscar Meyer, if you must know.)

[Wes]

So Wes does the recently released UN report sway your opinion that this attack could have been done by others than the Assad government?

Braheem- Where do you see the weapons going now? I was thinking Iran or most likely to Hezbollah in the Bakkah Valley but that may be a problem if he is overthrown and retreats to the Alawite controlled coast. So maybe, just maybe, it may be in his best interest to give them up after all. We can hope...

I haven't seen it yet. Do you have a link to the report you're talking about? I want to make sure we're talking apples to apples here.