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Thread: The PD Battle Has Begun

  1. #76
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    Who says $15 is low? It takes me what 5 mins to measure and check them out. We are nice. We don't let people walk on us at all, however, get the guy out of my store who is not my customer and make $15. It's a win win. They are at most mildly perturbed they had to pay for it. And I made enough to pay for my time. Our lens pricing is competitive to Clarkson and LC at least in the ballpark. We are a super busy shop and I don't want to waste energy arguing with people. We don't currently charge for adjustments. My only point is to analyze what your time and energy is worth. We come from the stance to be positive about everything we do.

    We have only had to do this a handful of times. In fact WP sent one guy to us. Now that is funny ! !

  2. #77
    Master OptiBoarder CCGREEN's Avatar
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    Good WP..........have to wonder if their dream is large enough to give Wally-World a good old fashion spanking in the optical business. This I have to watch popcorn soda anyone?

  3. #78
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Warby Parker could be gone in a year, meanwhile we're lowering our professional standards. Kind of sad.

  4. #79
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Warby Parker could be gone in a year, meanwhile we're lowering our professional standards. Kind of sad.
    There are principally two kinds of people in the present day ophthalmic community- the James Sheedy type, and the Jimmy Swaggart type. I'm putting my money on the former, and will expose, not compete with the latter.
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    Interesting you should bring up statutes, drk. Giving the patient the wrong or incorrect information causing the patient to have glasses remade because of the wrong or incorrect information falls under the statutes for fraud. Might also be cause to lose your license.
    I'm just wondering if this also applies to the many "Doctors" that constantly have to re-write RXs. As a conservative estimate I would say 90% of my remakes are because of this.

    Thanks to Mike Aurelius I think I will start a lawsuit against pretty much every Optometrist/Ophthalmologist in the country for "Giving the patient the wrong or incorrect information causing the patient to have glasses remade because of the wrong or incorrect information".

    Great idea!!!

  6. #81
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    Many of the replies about supplying PD's refer to opticians being professionals. How can you consider an optician as a professional when many states doesn't require the individual to have a state license or it's ok to take the path of apprenticeship. Formal education and state licensing is the only future for opticianry. That's what you should be fighting for. Not debating about PD's.
    WAKE UP.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Warby Parker could be gone in a year, meanwhile we're lowering our professional standards. Kind of sad.
    Forget about Warby Parker. Frames Direct and Eyebuy Direct aren't going anywhere. They are part of a corporation with a market cap of over $17,000,000,000 and growing.

  8. #83
    OptiBoard Professional Lee H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Tabor View Post
    Forget about Warby Parker. Frames Direct and Eyebuy Direct aren't going anywhere. They are part of a corporation with a market cap of over $17,000,000,000 and growing.
    +1

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Tabor View Post
    The "independent doctor" is an endangered species. Sure you see an occasional doctor who owns his own practice. But Plastic surgeons and ODs are about the only doctors left whose practices haven't largely been gobbled up by hospital chains or insurance companies. The cost of technology and infrastructure, malpractice insurance, the need for continuous training and many other factors made consolidation inevitable
    While you are correct that FAR fewer doctor's now own their practices, the ones who truly are smart have already seen the writing on the wall and are "going direct". They are reaching potential customers/patients and saying "for $$$ per year I will see you as many times as I need to and I will solve your problems". They are doing this in spite of many people already having insurance plans and in spite of all the corporate nonsense that goes on. They are truly "on call" as doctors used to be. It is amazing to me to see things comes full cycle. I love it.

  10. #85
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper I call BS on your post, drk

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post

    I call BS on your post, Chris.

    It's not manufacturing costs. It's the fact:
    1. That anyone can start up a website with minimal cost
    2. That has a huge marketplace
    3. We are in the early phases so there are a lot of non-profitable websites
    4. Essilor has put the hurt on so many private labs that they'll contract out
    5. International labor and exchange differences

    Yes, frame wholesale costs have gone up, but vision plan penetration is HUGE and no patients pays retail, anyway, so at the retail level they've been pretty steady.




    and I am sending the BS right back at you...............

    Manufacturing prices always defined an end to the consumer pricing. Manufacturers of optical frames are selling frames today at the level they cost in the early 1960's. Having been a major brand name distributor for 20 years I do know that business. I am following OptiBoard rules and will not mention them.

    However there is no more just a couple of hands full of them, there are in East Asia (128637) of them competing against each other. You can verify that on a public site at http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?...optical+frames ...........................and check them out. I can get you the link for lenses too if you still feel like it.

    Once you have done that please explain to us were the difference between the manufacturers selling price and your selling price has disapeared to and if the on-liners are going to disapear soon.
    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 07-17-2013 at 04:05 AM.

  11. #86
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    Why do we keep arguing about this? I swear it's split down the middle. It's clearly impolite to talk about religion, politics, and pd's on optiboard. Until there is some kind of ruling from the FDA, everyone's opinion on this thread is just that, an opinion.

    I've worked for places that don't give it out, and I've worked for places that do. Guess what? We've lost the patient at both places whether we give it out or not. Do what seems best for you and your practice. Now let's stop debating something that will go on for 9 more pages then get shut down because some hot head will call someone a poopy head.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    Why do we keep arguing about this? I swear it's split down the middle. It's clearly impolite to talk about religion, politics, and pd's on optiboard. Until there is some kind of ruling from the FDA, everyone's opinion on this thread is just that, an opinion.

    I've worked for places that don't give it out, and I've worked for places that do. Guess what? We've lost the patient at both places whether we give it out or not. Do what seems best for you and your practice. Now let's stop debating something that will go on for 9 more pages then get shut down because some hot head will call someone a poopy head.
    Yyyyup.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    Now let's stop debating something that will go on for 9 more pages then get shut down because some hot head will call someone a poopy head.
    ur a poopy head.

    There, I said it. Can we be done now?

  14. #89
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    I wouldn't mind giving out the pd so much if I knew that the glasses rx's were being verified with the prescribing Dr. and they are not using expired rx's.

  15. #90
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    Im not going to "happily" give out PD's for free unless my licensing body requires me to do so.

    We charge $30 for a pd measurement and that dosent include any adjustments/ verification of internet glasses.

    If anyone questions the fee, they're told that... industry standard is that PD's and any other measurements (excluding the rx), related to eyeglass fabrication is the responsibility of the seller of the glasses. Any qualified dispenser should be able to do this.

    Most people pay, those who dont are free to go elsewhere or try to do it themselves.

    Im not opening up the can of worms of verifying internet glasses for free or as part of the pd fee , or accepting any responsibility for anything to do with the internet eyeglass fabrication.

    People who want to save money by sidestepping the dispensing fee have to accept the consequences if things dont work out.

    Im not sure why a lot of posters seem to agonize over the pd issue in terms of releasing or charging for it, because they're afraid to offend someone who isnt a customer (anymore ) anyway.


    Im not in business to give away my services to help the online competition.

    IF the optical across the road didnt have competent personal to do the measurements, I sure as heck wouldnt be doing it for them....especially for free....

    So why would I do it for the online competition who doesnt have the same overhead costs and responsibility as I do?

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    Im not going to "happily" give out PD's for free unless my licensing body requires me to do so.

    We charge $30 for a pd measurement and that dosent include any adjustments/ verification of internet glasses.

    If anyone questions the fee, they're told that... industry standard is that PD's and any other measurements (excluding the rx), related to eyeglass fabrication is the responsibility of the seller of the glasses. Any qualified dispenser should be able to do this.

    Most people pay, those who dont are free to go elsewhere or try to do it themselves.

    Im not opening up the can of worms of verifying internet glasses for free or as part of the pd fee , or accepting any responsibility for anything to do with the internet eyeglass fabrication.

    People who want to save money by sidestepping the dispensing fee have to accept the consequences if things dont work out.

    Im not sure why a lot of posters seem to agonize over the pd issue in terms of releasing or charging for it, because they're afraid to offend someone who isnt a customer (anymore ) anyway.


    Im not in business to give away my services to help the online competition.

    IF the optical across the road didnt have competent personal to do the measurements, I sure as heck wouldnt be doing it for them....especially for free....

    So why would I do it for the online competition who doesnt have the same overhead costs and responsibility as I do?
    Yeah...but...the real problem is... when a client of yours, who has bought glasses from you within the last year or two, asks you for a copy of the PD that you have in his or her record. If you are in NYS, or most states, you will be required to give it without charging an additional fee except perhaps for a photocopy.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Yeah...but...the real problem is... when a client of yours, who has bought glasses from you within the last year or two, asks you for a copy of the PD that you have in his or her record. If you are in NYS, or most states, you will be required to give it without charging an additional fee except perhaps for a photocopy.
    Not a requirement here.

  18. #93
    Doh! braheem24's Avatar
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    You should be happy to give it to an existing patient so they SEE the difference in quality and never question your prices again.

    No need for a board to get involved or upset them by charging them for information they;ve already paid for.
    Last edited by braheem24; 07-17-2013 at 04:09 PM.

  19. #94
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Yeah...but...the real problem is... when a client of yours, who has bought glasses from you within the last year or two, asks you for a copy of the PD that you have in his or her record. If you are in NYS, or most states, you will be required to give it without charging an additional fee except perhaps for a photocopy.
    I've been charged $20-$40 for records in the past...even for a single page to be copied and mailed or just scanned and emailed. That seems to be fairly standard practice in numerous medical offices. Don't see any reason the same wouldn't apply here.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by braheem24 View Post
    You should be happy to give it to an existing patient so they SEE the difference in quality and never question your prices again.

    No need for a board to get involved.
    I tend to agree.

    Just an interesting side story... My family is having two weddings this summer and I had to get measured for two tuxedos. As it would have been difficult for me to go to the second shop due to time and distance, I asked the "measuring guy" at the first shop if he would give me the measurements (they measure neck, sleeve, waist, inseam, outseam,...whatever else) so I could order from the second shop. He said, "Sure, no problem". They had special cards pre-printed and he just filled the measurements and handed it over. He never flinched. He didn't make me sign a disclaimer form. He didn't charge me a fee. There is probably no law that requires him to do that. He just did something gracious for a customer.

    I don't advocate working for nothing, but taking care of your customers is important. If they paid for it...it's theirs. Just give it to them.

  21. #96
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    NYS law says you can only charge a patient up to 75 cents per page for records. Anybody who charges a patient/customer 75 cents for a copy of the record which contains the PD is nuts.

    And remember Eyeglasses 1??? Among other things it said you couldn't charge a patient extra for releasing a prescription... If we keep denying release of PDs, or overcharging for it when it is already in the record, regardless of state law, some Senators spouse is going to get pi$$ed, and get her husband to call the FTC...as has been done in the past with the Fairness to Contact Lens Consumers Act.

  22. #97
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    I tend to agree.

    Just an interesting side story... My family is having two weddings this summer and I had to get measured for two tuxedos. As it would have been difficult for me to go to the second shop due to time and distance, I asked the "measuring guy" at the first shop if he would give me the measurements (they measure neck, sleeve, waist, inseam, outseam,...whatever else) so I could order from the second shop. He said, "Sure, no problem". They had special cards pre-printed and he just filled the measurements and handed it over. He never flinched. He didn't make me sign a disclaimer form. He didn't charge me a fee. There is probably no law that requires him to do that. He just did something gracious for a customer.

    I don't advocate working for nothing, but taking care of your customers is important. If they paid for it...it's theirs. Just give it to them.
    And yet - while the ill-fitted tux may only produce tittering and muffled giggles from the other wedding guests, an improperly measured, crafted and fitting pair of glasses may well do worse than this. Certainly you can appreciate that. And in all honesty, what is the likelyhood that you would return to your first fitter, and threaten with a lawsuit if his measurements were off and guy number 2 made you look like a clown? There is far more of that mentality when it comes to healthcare today. Have you SEEN your malpractice premiums lately?

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    And yet - while the ill-fitted tux may only produce tittering and muffled giggles from the other wedding guests, an improperly measured, crafted and fitting pair of glasses may well do worse than this. Certainly you can appreciate that. And in all honesty, what is the likelyhood that you would return to your first fitter, and threaten with a lawsuit if his measurements were off and guy number 2 made you look like a clown? There is far more of that mentality when it comes to healthcare today. Have you SEEN your malpractice premiums lately?
    My malpractice premiums are very low. No one is going to go blind or get into a car accident from a slightly off or old PD.

    Secondly, I did shorten the story a bit. The two tuxedos were really for my 5 year old grandson. I own my own tux. I ALWAYS look sharp. I still think the first store did me a service.

  24. #99
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    "You guys" keep talking about the bad things that can happen if the "measurements are off".

    And yet, for all that, there are tolerances in ANSI for up to 3(?) mm variance in the PD, plus any power measurements. As someone noted above, there are countless redos because of inaccurate or incorrect refracting.

    Are you really trying to tell people that being off 3 mm in a PD measurement is going to cause them to go blind? Really?

    I call major B.S.

  25. #100
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    My malpractice premiums are very low. No one is going to go blind or get into a car accident from a slightly off or old PD.

    Secondly, I did shorten the story a bit. The two tuxedos were really for my 5 year old grandson. I own my own tux. I ALWAYS look sharp. I still think the first store did me a service.
    Think of it this way: Would your 5 yo grandson have been doing quite so well if he were a +9 that was 10mm off? (Assuming a typical 52 PD for a little guy...vs the "standard" 62 that online often uses.)

    Not likely.

    Congrats on getting him in two tuxes though. Most kiddos that age I see at the wedding I play for can barely keep a shirt tucked in, let alone wear a clip on tie or wear a tux jacket more than 2 minutes before it magically 'disappears'! Though, to be fair, many, possibly most 5 y olds don't give a toss if their tux is fitted or not either.

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