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Thread: The PD Battle Has Begun

  1. #51
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    The real pinch will continue to come when deregulation takes fuller effect.

    "So your state dispensing laws are flouted? Tsk tsk. Well, no one ever died from a poor fitting frame."

    "So refractor kiosks are in the mall? Well, if they don't work, people won't use them, so..."

    "So, that guy I got my eyes examined from isn't really an eye doctor? Wow, he sure looked spiffy in that coat..."

    "I can't tell who the he77 knows what they're doing, and I can't get glasses that work for my elderly mom."

    "Hey, I just found a certified doctor that uses certified opticians and make quality eye glasses by a real, live company and I'm a lot happier."

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Tabor View Post
    You are not going to stop advances in technology. The pace of change continues to accelerate. The eyewear industry has largely been late to the game with respect to changes brought about by e-commerce and consumer based technology applications. You can adopt an attitude of "glasses are special, you need personal measurements, they are medical devices, blah blah blah" and refuse to innovate. Ultimately you will get wiped out.

    Consolidation in the eyewear industry was inevitable. It happens in virtually ALL INDUSTRIES. As an example, when cars were first invented, there were literally hundreds of auto manufacturers. Ford and later GM and Chrysler drove innovation and you had the big three. Same thing happened in radio and TV.

    If you think the same was not going to inevitably happen in eyewear, you have not learned from history. Mature businesses consolidate. In the lab business, you now have E, Z, and H. In frames, you have Lux, Saf, and Marchon. You can make the same lists for optical retailers and insurance companies. Any little guy who wants to compete in a mature industry is a niche player and better do one thing very well. Embracing a new technology can be your ticket to success.

    So get beyond worrying about PDs and start thinking about the future of your business.
    I agree, but think you missed my point. The innovation already developed or in the future should only be sold/offered to consumers through ECP's (dealers), not consumer direct which is happening.

    Ford, Chrysler or GM do not sell brand new cars bypassing their dealers direct to consumer via the web or otherwise. People should really get their heads out of the sand and stop supporting the 'E'. Believe it or not, there is a great life out their without them and will no be no voids to fill in your practice without their absence.

  3. #53
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    You are not going to stop advances in technology. The pace of change continues to accelerate. The eyewear industry has largely been late to the game with respect to changes brought about by e-commerce and consumer based technology applications. You can adopt an attitude of "glasses are special, you need personal measurements, they are medical devices, blah blah blah" and refuse to innovate. Ultimately you will get wiped out.
    You have the perspective of a glasses guy. The whole eye care industry is at least half medical model, if not more. If people could get a custom-fitted vision correcting device out of a vending machine, by now there'd be that option.

    We may have made all these "advances" (mostly in information technology, if you're honest), but the human body is the same old/same old. Some things change very, very, slowly if at all.

  4. #54
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    WP is opening B&M locations. They will soon find out the *costs* of such locations. Either they will need a pricing restructuring or turn out being just another Eyemart Express...A cheap provider of mediocre product supplied by minimally trained staff.

    Also, if you read the comments section you will find a huge disgruntlement over PD's not being provided by their examiner. Refusing this info is not a way to elicit loyalty from your patients. If you have it documented, you should provide it. If not, charge a nominal fee and engage them in why they don't find value in your services. It just may give you the opportunity to improve what you offer along with educating them with what you provide that online can't.
    Actually guys and gals, you WANT to give out their PD while the online eyewear scene is still in its "wild-west" phase. If you been doing you home work all along, then when they sample the "cheaper" eyewear, they may find them to be OK (for the money... at first), but I've been fitting FF SV for onto 5 years as my main lens, with good abbe material and proper frame choice. People who've trie Costco, Wize Eyes and other lower-end opticals...who really value what we deliver...are back, having "learned their lesson." Not everybody, but a filtered set of qualified clients.

    There is no comparison. To compete, you don't want to just lower prices. You NEED to step up the quality.

    And drop taking insurance directly.

    B
    Last edited by Barry Santini; 07-16-2013 at 11:07 AM.

  5. #55
    OptiBoardaholic vcom's Avatar
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    I second Barry's post. If you provide the best possible service, with the best possible product, you will find a loyal patient base to support a successful business. I'm pretty sure 5 star fine dining restaurants don't stress too much about the dollar menu down the street. If you have measured a PD for a previous pair of glasses, I'd give it out. If you haven't, that's your chance to explain the importance of it, and the quality control concerns, and all that hubabaloo, giving the patient the chance to make an informed decision. I've had enough people come back and buy glasses from me because I replaced nose-pads for free, that it's obvious consumers do care about personal service, and respect. Denying PD's (if you have them) just seems petty and rude.
    Patient, ".. Doctor says I have a subscription for stigmata.. Can you fill that?"
    Me, "..Um.. "

  6. #56
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcom View Post
    Denying PD's (if you have them) just seems petty and rude.
    Is it going to be "petty and rude" when they swing by with a pair of frames from Lenscrafters or the net and want you to measure seg height?

    "C'mon, the website says it's only a two-second measurement. What's the big deal?"

    What do you say to that? Where do you want to draw the line?

    "C'mon, adjust my glasses. What's the big deal?"

    "Hey, doc, I can't see out of these glasses that I got with your prescription. Please check them out. What's the big deal?"


    I ask you this: if you show up at Midas with a muffler you bought online and they say "Sorry, we only put on mufflers that we supply" do you say: "C'mon, what's the big deal? A muffler's a muffler! How petty and rude!"

    If you rationalizers don't stop participating with this, you're going to boil like a frog. "Oh, no, I won't go one step further!" Sure, you will. You will compromise whatever license you may have, you'll compromise your profession, and you'll be cheating, really, those patients that you participate in their half-@$$ glasses behavior.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    You have the perspective of a glasses guy. The whole eye care industry is at least half medical model, if not more. If people could get a custom-fitted vision correcting device out of a vending machine, by now there'd be that option.

    We may have made all these "advances" (mostly in information technology, if you're honest), but the human body is the same old/same old. Some things change very, very, slowly if at all.
    You may judge me as a "glasses guy" but I also view myself as someone who realizes that those who do not understand history are destined to repeat it. The context of my post was why consolidation happens.

    You proved my point. The recent history in the "medical model" is a prime example. In most and if not all major metropolitan areas, the vast majority of hospitals have been bought up by regional or national hospital groups. The independents left are either not worth buying or will soon be bought. Physician practices have been bought up as well. We are in the age of corporate medicine. The "independent doctor" is an endangered species. Sure you see an occasional doctor who owns his own practice. But Plastic surgeons and ODs are about the only doctors left whose practices haven't largely been gobbled up by hospital chains or insurance companies. The cost of technology and infrastructure, malpractice insurance, the need for continuous training and many other factors made consolidation inevitable. Change is coming to OD practices as well, especially if ODs continue in their desire to move up the "value chain" and move their primary focus beyond eye exams and tap into medical billing. If you think you are going to make a stand as an eye doctor and stop change by not giving out a PD, in all sincerity, I wish you luck because you are going to need it.

  8. #58
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    You missed the point. As a healthcare provider (you could be, too, if you wanted to move up the "value chain") you have a different standard.

    You provide a health care service.

    They haven't figured out a way to digitize that, regardless of all your futurist language. If you think "more consolidated is better", you just wait. Consolidated is blah. Think about restaurants and the GAP, and every other stupid experience that we get from corporate America and then imagine your protologist and what could happen.

    Think TWO steps ahead, not one. Zig when they zag, you know?

    Barry's got the right idea (except for that "give out the p.d.'s now" baloney).

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I ask you this: if you show up at Midas with a muffler you bought online and they say "Sorry, we only put on mufflers that we supply" do you say: "C'mon, what's the big deal? A muffler's a muffler! How petty and rude!"
    And here we go again with the masked man fallacies. C'mon, drk, you are better than this.

  10. #60
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    It seems to me that if you provide the PD for a pair of glasses you are not providing, then if something isn't right the patient will be much more likely to blame you for the problem and demand some remedy. That itself is reason enough not to do it.


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  11. #61
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    The only other model I can think of when it comes to DIY is Home Depot. They'll hire retired plumbers to work in the box and give free advice as to which toilet flapper to buy.

    You do it yourself, they provide the parts without any service, but then they give you minimum wage DIY advice.

    Get your orange aprons at the ready.

    @Mike Aurelius: What other service provider provides a service without supplying the part? Do you bring in the lumber, nails, glue, whatever and have some guy put in your hardwood floor and guarantee the outcome? No, your cousin Bubba, will, though.

    Will Earl Scheib let you bring in the paint from NAPA and guarantee the outcome? (Well, Earl Scheib probably would, so bad example.)

    Can you think of another example of those who would go halfsies (for free at that) with a DIY consumer?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    The only other model I can think of when it comes to DIY is Home Depot. They'll hire retired plumbers to work in the box and give free advice as to which toilet flapper to buy.

    You do it yourself, they provide the parts without any service, but then they give you minimum wage DIY advice.

    Get your orange aprons at the ready.
    The only problem with THIS fallacy is that the consumer does not own any spectacle manufacturing equipment. They are much more likely to own a wrench.

    FAIL.

  13. #63
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    Guys, I am new here and have been reading about this whole ordeal over the PD and was wondering if we all are missing the big picture here. It is really not about giving or taking a PD for a patient its all about buying online eyewear. This matter is no longer relevant according to framesdirect.com (ESSILOR). This is directly off of their website "Pupil distance measurements are taken at the time of an eye examination. Occasionally the PD information is omitted on an eyeglass prescription.Now, getting a PD measurement as accurate as the doctor's can be done from the convenience of your computer" or better yet just check out this link that is a full page explaining about the PD http://www.framesdirect.com/landing/...u-need-pd.html . So to me this is making the question of giving out the PD no longer an issue. I'm sure all of the other online optical retailers are taking notes on how they can incorporate this for themselves.

  14. #64
    OptiBoardaholic vcom's Avatar
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    DRK- so, what exactly are you afraid will happen if the patient gets their PD? So far it just sounds like you want to argue, and discount our profession to that of muffler installers, and Home Depot employees.
    Patient, ".. Doctor says I have a subscription for stigmata.. Can you fill that?"
    Me, "..Um.. "

  15. #65
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I'm trying to get you guys up to the correct level of professionalism. Don't worry, I have to crack on ODs that are as lackadasical.

    I can't explain it any more. I can't give analogies, apparently, without being accused of some "logical fallacy".

    Do what you want, guys.

    But, remember (when you hand wring that the public doesn't know the difference between someone they pulled off the home good department and plopped down in the optical and you, who is trying to create some "brand" so patients can tell the wheat from the chaff) that licensure and degrees and boards and rules and malpractice, etc. are a quality control issue.

    If you water down your quality by equating yourselves with the online nobodies, you slowly become a nobody, too. An optician is anything, everything, and nothing, all the same.

    Now, if you want to go the opposite direction, I think it does a good thing for society.

    But please, be sure to be nice to everyone! Customer's always right, you know!

  16. #66
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    "Pupil distance measurements are taken at the time of an eye examination. Occasionally the PD information is omitted on an eyeglass prescription.Now, getting a PD measurement as accurate as the doctor's can be done from the convenience of your computer" or better yet just check out this link that is a full page explaining about the PDhttp://www.framesdirect.com/landing/...u-need-pd.html


    More lies, worthy of essilor.

  17. #67
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Actually guys and gals, you WANT to give out their PD while the online eyewear scene is still in its "wild-west" phase. If you been doing you home work all along, then when they sample the "cheaper" eyewear, they may find them to be OK (for the money... at first), but I've been fitting FF SV for onto 5 years as my main lens, with good abbe material and proper frame choice. People who've trie Costco, Wize Eyes and other lower-end opticals...who really value what we deliver...are back, having "learned their lesson." Not everybody, but a filtered set of qualified clients.

    There is no comparison. To compete, you don't want to just lower prices. You NEED to step up the quality.

    And drop taking insurance directly.

    B
    Barry, this posts states exactly my thought with this post from page one....

    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    ... Even if you have a (legal) leg to stand on, would you rather loose patients over it (along with the bad PR that would go along with it)? Why not let them *take a walk on the wild side*?

    After years and years of watching a handful of patients purchase elsewhere, only to sheepishly return with bad stories of service, product, comfort, ect from other locations and become life long clients, I'm convinced that they see value in me. Even if they find similar service and products/pricing, they still don't get *me*. If you (or any of you) are loosing patients on price alone you are not providing value in their eyes. You have to ask yourself, why?

    Lastly, the optical pie is HUGE. There are many markets and sub-markets. You can't be all things to all people. Pick your market and excel! Be it a burger joint or a fine steak restaurant, there are clients that will patronize them.

  18. #68
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    And just for you Doc;

    "If you love them, set them free. If they return it was meant to be."

  19. #69
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    The only problem with THIS fallacy is that the consumer does not own any spectacle manufacturing equipment. They are much more likely to own a wrench.

    FAIL.
    I don't know - this analogy may be closer to the mark than you make it.

    The customer doesn't own the key cutter at the Home Depot either...but it's still cheaper to run in, have something cut and pray to the flying spaghetti monster that it works - rather than hiring a qualified, trained, licenses and insured master locksmith to do it once, and do it right.

    Sure, you may have to drive back to the store and deal with re-cuts and the dreaded exchange/returns desk, broken keys stuck in your lock, damaged tumblers/barrel/pins/etc on your lock itself, and so forth. But hey, it was cheap, so it's clearly the way to go!

    America is killing itself in it's ever present search for "cheap" vs paying that little bit more for quality and service. Then we b**ch and moan all the way to the Walmart for cheap tissues and ice cream to console ourselves. Meanwhile, Main St continues to die off.

    Pts/clients that are worth keeping will continue to seek out and find exceptional service and quality. And more perhaps than we give credit for are willing to pay more for much better service/quality. Our job is simply to show the value in what we bring. There are always going to be those that choose to try and beat up everyone the encounter on cost and cost alone. You don't need them. And they'll get precisely what they pay for - all perceptions aside.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    You missed the point. As a healthcare provider (you could be, too, if you wanted to move up the "value chain") you have a different standard.

    You provide a health care service.

    They haven't figured out a way to digitize that, regardless of all your futurist language. If you think "more consolidated is better", you just wait. Consolidated is blah. Think about restaurants and the GAP, and every other stupid experience that we get from corporate America and then imagine your protologist and what could happen.

    Think TWO steps ahead, not one. Zig when they zag, you know?

    Barry's got the right idea (except for that "give out the p.d.'s now" baloney).
    Actually, you missed the point. Technology is a leading driver of how healthcare is delivered.

    I am not always the biggest fan of consolidation either. I grew up in a different era when small business ruled the day. But there is a reason why consolidation occurs. That big hospital can afford the $1.2 million MRI unit with the best scanning technology. Joe Independent Radiologist cannot. A regional hospital group can afford to put in a state of the art cardiac unit in one of its hospitals. A stand alone independent cannot.

    Further, you prove the point by mentioning the Gap. More evidenced that corporate America has the means to wipe out the little guy.

    For decades, the fragmentation in the optical industry stifled innovation. That is changing as the roll ups are creating a scale unseen before in the industry. We are also seeing innovation driven by people that are not the traditional eyecare professionals. An OD clinging to a PD measurement is not going to stop the acceleration of change.

    Time for Stan to take his nap.

  21. #71
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    I just posted the following in the comments section of Yahoo, where the original video aired:

    "If PD was really important, then over-the-counter readers, aka OTCs, which are available up to 3.00 diopters (85% of all prescriptions are found under 3.00 diopters), would have coughed up some bodies by now. Besides, online vendors have methods using credit cards and picture analysis algorithms that can interpolate a person's binocular PD pretty adequately."

    We should all aspire to the high standards of care espoused by drk, Which I share. However, legislatively, only "adequate" or minimal standards are legally and politically possible in our country.

    Buyer beware.

    B


  22. #72
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    Right on the mark as usual Barry! However unfortunate, it is very correct. I understand and agree with were Drk is coming from, but it's an endless argument that will never be won.

  23. #73
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    WP does have their own webpage for getting pds. Its pd.w......p......com. Its accurate if done according to the instructions, at least based on that we have used it a few times just to see. I have done this photo & credit card deal many times in the past to make lenses for out of state patients and never had it not work. Its similar to what a lot of the either ipad apps or machines do except you have to do the math. We charge $15 for a patients pd if we have never made glasses for them or they just want an exam. We explain we will verify the RX and adjust them when they get them. Once we explain we are responsible for the measurement and want to make sure the glasses get made properly they pay it and dont give much grief.

    The society is one that people want what they want for cheap. Those people are not our customer so we dont get upset. In fact some of our customers just want a cheap back up or 2nd pair and I cant compete with $100. Well we could, we just choose not to. They can tell the difference and know they are getting a much better product. I really feel instead of putting up a wall and upsetting the person, charge them a small fee so you are not wasting your time and build a relationship. Instead of trying to straighten the chairs on the titanic, build your own lifeboat and save your own people. WP cant make the glasses feel good on them. They will fall apart soon enough. I would rather spend energy toward my great customers who have money and understand our value. The person upset with you is 10x more likely to badmouth you to everyone they know.

    If you do some research, WP is not profitable. Without the investors they would have been long gone. The online model is one that is here to stay. So adjust and survive. Service will always bring people back.

    My 2 cents

  24. #74
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    However, legislatively, only "adequate" or minimal standards are legally and politically possible in our country.
    Medical standard of care is not legislated. It's regulated in the torts. There's no way that you can get away with minimal standards of care. You have to do what your peers would do, and that's a pretty heavy lift with good colleagues.

    Any statute that IS on the books, however, such as licensure, is indeed to provide a floor and establish a minimum standard for what defines a profession. After that, a true profession self-regulates. (There are demeaning exceptions, such as Florida defining what an eye exam is or isn't.) It's up to us, folks.

  25. #75
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    We charge $15 for a patients pd if we have never made glasses for them or they just want an exam. We explain we will verify the RX and adjust them when they get them. Once we explain we are responsible for the measurement and want to make sure the glasses get made properly they pay it and dont give much grief.
    You seem like a nice guy. But I ask you, what are your patients paying for whatever services you provide them? Let's not get into parts plus labor specifics, but if you measure and verify a guy off the street for $15, are you charging your patients the same ridiculously low price?

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