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Thread: The truth: PDs!

  1. #1
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    The truth: PDs!

    I've been in the industry for 10+years and I've always been taught that giving out a PD to the patient is something we don't do and don't have to do. I've always believed that this is the right thing; I don't want to be held responsible for glasses that weren't measured, fitted and purchased through me. What I can't get a clear answer on is whether it is legal for me to refuse the PD? Is there a law (in NY state and/or nationwide?) that declares that we have to give the PD as "part of the prescription"?

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    I found this this long discussion from a while back that should help-

    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...=giving+PD%27s

    Welcome to Optiboard!

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    Optical Curmudgeon EyeManFla's Avatar
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    The Doctor here came up with quite the interesting solution:

    We don't do PDs as part of the eye exam. That is part of the process of being fitted for eyeglasses.

    If you want your PD, we will be glad to measure it for you, for $30.00!
    "Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde"

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Java99's Avatar
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    In some states, the PD is considered to be a part of the rx.

    My answer when asked is that taking the PD is the responsibility of the glasses maker. I won't give them out, paid or unpaid, for glasses I'm not making, because I don't want to be included in the chain of liability. There was a very good statement released in VA about this topic, I bet the link above has a link to that document.

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    You could give it out an add "without recourse" on the paper. This lets you off the hook if the patient has a problem.

    Chip

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    Our CFO's policy on PDs is:PD is $99.00 and you get a free pair of glasses.

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    I am also from NYS, and have some experience with the state board of optometry. and I will give you the clearest answer I can. It is not required for a PD to be included in a spectacle Rx. However, as an OD, if I have accurate PD information in the patients record, and I don't mean from an auto-refractor, I am bound by law to release it. When we discussed with legal counsel whether an optician had to do the same, since they don't really keep a "health" record, the lawyer's response was, "yes". He felt that if push came to shove, you would be bound by law to release it, and would probably be censured by the state board if you didn't.

    Now, your statement, "...I don't want to be responsible for glasses that weren't measured by you..."...How do you think ODs felt when they were required by law, (Eyeglasses 1) to release the Rx, whether or not the patient asked for it? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We didn't like the idea of fragmenting eyecare/eyewear either...and I fully understand your position, you don't want the responsibility of patients who fragment their care just to save a few bucks...just like I don't want to be responsible for my patient who cannot see through the eyewear that they purchased elsewhere. But, in the real world, you do what you gotta do.

    It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you don't give it, the patient will think you are a crook and never use your services again. If you're lucky, they won't report you to the state board of opticianry. If you give it, you have half a chance that they will have a bad experience with their online eyewear and they might come back to you. At this point it is more of a practice management issue than the law.

    edit: Eye doctors are specifically prohibited by law from making any remarks or disclaimers on a spectacle Rx like "...not responsible for....". So, I would presume that you as a licensed professional are not exempt from trying to do the same.
    Last edited by fjpod; 07-09-2012 at 12:28 PM.

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    Redhot Jumper you are only loosing by refusing..........................

    Quote Originally Posted by alf1734 View Post

    What I can't get a clear answer on is whether it is legal for me to refuse the PD?

    We are all living in a very fast changing optical world where so far only your largest suppliers seem to have understood what is going on and are playing both sides. Essilor has purchased "Frames Direct" one of the largest on-line optical stores with sales of thousands per day. The economy has been a powerfull booster for these ventures that will not go away.

    You are a professional and licensed optician who is entitled to charge for your services without having to sell anything. Anyone that asks you to give them the PD has every intention not to buy any finished glasses from you. Therefore you are only loosing by refusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    We are all living in a very fast changing optical world where so far only your largest suppliers seem to have understood what is going on and are playing both sides. Essilor has purchased "Frames Direct" one of the largest on-line optical stores with sales of thousands per day. The economy has been a powerfull booster for these ventures that will not go away.

    You are a professional and licensed optician who is entitled to charge for your services without having to sell anything. Anyone that asks you to give them the PD has every intention not to buy any finished glasses from you. Therefore you are only loosing by refusing.
    Re:Losing by refusing comment. Perhaps some members who refuse could chime in and tell us how their refusal has affected their business?

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

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    Quote Originally Posted by himmeroo View Post
    Our CFO's policy on PDs is:PD is $99.00 and you get a free pair of glasses.
    Whoa- I can deal with that. But ours would have to be $99.95 suns. Thanks!

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    The problem isn't usually that the patient comes in and asks you to measure their PD, in which case you could charge them if you so desire...they usually want the PD that you have on record, and already paid for.

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    NYS Education Law Article 144 section 7126 Special Provisions states that an MD, OD or Optician must be present at the dispensing of eyewear or contact lenses. Claudia Alexander, the Executive Secretary of the NYS Board of Ophthalmic Dispensers, stated that PD's given by an optician in NYS establishes our liablity. The Optometric Board, I believe also stated that this was correct.

    Claudia retired in Jan. 2012 however, I believe that Seth Rockmuller the current Exec. Sec., an attorney is in agreement.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    The problem isn't usually that the patient comes in and asks you to measure their PD, in which case you could charge them if you so desire...they usually want the PD that you have on record, and already paid for.
    The answer is that "we take the pd every time a person orders glasses- noses get broken, tropias can become more or less severe, pd's can change." Mumbo jumbo, but with factual basis.

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post
    Re:Losing by refusing comment. Perhaps some members who refuse could chime in and tell us how their refusal has affected their business?

    Regards,
    Golfnorth
    We refuse. Business remains unaffected.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmarx View Post
    NYS Education Law Article 144 section 7126 Special Provisions states that an MD, OD or Optician must be present at the dispensing of eyewear or contact lenses. Claudia Alexander, the Executive Secretary of the NYS Board of Ophthalmic Dispensers, stated that PD's given by an optician in NYS establishes our liablity. The Optometric Board, I believe also stated that this was correct.

    Claudia retired in Jan. 2012 however, I believe that Seth Rockmuller the current Exec. Sec., an attorney is in agreement.
    Everything you say is true.

    If an optician gives out a PD, he/she is potentially liable, just like an OD/MD is liable when we hand over an Rx to a patient to take elsewhere. You are not able to absolve yourself of liability. That would be like me saying, "Oh, you want your Rx to take somewhere else, I'm not going to give it to you because I don't want a hassle if your glasses are made wrong". You did the PD, you are liable. You have it in your records, you have to release it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudonym View Post
    The answer is that "we take the pd every time a person orders glasses- noses get broken, tropias can become more or less severe, pd's can change." Mumbo jumbo, but with factual basis.
    Question...does the NC Board protect the public or the profession?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post
    We refuse. Business remains unaffected.
    Thank you AngeHamm. That's the kind of information I was looking for. Keep those responses coming.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

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    Optical Curmudgeon EyeManFla's Avatar
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    I get either phone calls or actually have people come in EVERY DAY wanting their PDs.

    1) Are we responsible if the PD was wrong? Well, did the OD or MD that wrote the Rx you are now redoing going to pony up the bucks for the redo?

    2) If the PD is part of the Doctor's records, is the patient entitled to that PD? YUP!

    3) Question...does the NC Board protect the public or the profession? If they are like the Florida Board, their only interest is in keeping their jobs and rasing revenue for the state.

    Face it, these people are going to order their glasses on the Internet whether you give them their PD or not. But if you are going to give it to them, it damn well better be in writing!
    "Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde"

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    Remember: Each patient you irratate is not coming back for an exam next year. You doctors that don't think a refraction is part of a "complete eye exam" are going to find that these patients are not coming back next year either. When thier cataracts, or refractive surgery or whatever is indicated or desired, they will be seeing someone else.
    While your part of the business may be that of an optician, those of you that work for a prescriber remember that if the patient doesn't come back your employer won't have that C note from the exam to pay you with.

    Chip

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Everything you say is true.

    If an optician gives out a PD, he/she is potentially liable, just like an OD/MD is liable when we hand over an Rx to a patient to take elsewhere. You are not able to absolve yourself of liability. That would be like me saying, "Oh, you want your Rx to take somewhere else, I'm not going to give it to you because I don't want a hassle if your glasses are made wrong". You did the PD, you are liable. You have it in your records, you have to release it.
    By 'in their record', I'm assuming you mean their previous eyeglass orders? So, that would absolve me of having to give any of our patients their PD if they haven't ordered with us before? (I joined a new optical practice that opened in December) Correct? Our optometrist doesn't do a PD as part of the exam. Our auto-refractor "takes" one, but I almost never find it to be accurate.
    I absolutely understand about ticking off customers by refusing measurements, but honestly, I'm just not into:
    A. putting my license at risk for someone else.
    B. doing the work for someone else.
    I know online will always be there. I'm an avid online shopper myself for a lot of things. Who doesn't love to save money if value isn't compromised? But for most things in my life, I buy local and support local as often as possible- I believe strongly in that. I don't pretend I can change the world, but at least I can know I did my part.

  21. #21
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    Is the Pd part of the RX?

    I am an Optician & to my knowledge nothing I say or jot down will ever be called a prescription or part of an RX because I am not a doctor & not licensed to prescribe.

    I may or may not give out PD & I may or may not charge a fee, but as an optician I will not being calling it part of an RX if it comes from me.

    My problem is solved.

    I would think that if you are an eye doc or work with one, the rules might be different.

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    With 49% of the on line eyewear not passing saftey standards as documented by the AOA, we have decided that we cannot give out info. Do we get some patients upset,yes. Does this have any affect on our business, no. We also always explain why we are unable to comply. Our Doc's don't do PD's and the auto refractor is only as good as the person using it. We never use or print those PDs.

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    Alf1734

    Given your circumstances:

    If I worked for a doc. then I'd do what he or she said under their license cus they're the boss. Orrrr.. I'd say to the client, I am your optician, I don't prescribe & to my knowledge our Dr. onsite doesn't take PDs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmarx View Post
    With 49% of the on line eyewear not passing saftey standards as documented by the AOA, we have decided that we cannot give out info. Do we get some patients upset,yes. Does this have any affect on our business, no. We also always explain why we are unable to comply. Our Doc's don't do PD's and the auto refractor is only as good as the person using it. We never use or print those PDs.
    do you mind if I ask what wording you use when you explain this to the patient? I think having that failure percentage is great! (not great that it happens, but certainly useful as a tool!)
    Thanks!

  25. #25
    OptiBoardaholic J.P.'s Avatar
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    Here's what we do.

    If a patient calls or asks for their PD's we tell them This: "Your Pupillary Measurement is not a part of your exam, it is a part of the glasses buying process that we would be happy to measure for you at the charge of $30.00. This includes an accurate measurement of your PD's by our Board Certified Optician. This charge will also include us verifying that your glasses are made correctly by our Optician if you need that to be done also. Now our Measurement are not liable if someone else makes the glasses and miss-cuts the PD's or the RX."
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
    ~ Mark Twain ~

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