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Thread: Is "education" really the answer employers are looking for?

  1. #26
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    So if a dispenser doesn't know the difference between a Latin term vs French - they're somehow "jealous" of something, and that "jealousy" is the cancer slowly killing opticianry in the US? Here I thought it was just the tin hats being worn a bit too tightly...

    ;)

  2. #27
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    I graduated from St. Cloud State University in 1977 with a B.S. (yes, it means exactly what you think it means bull****) in Accounting. My first job was in accounting and I knew very little of "real world" accounting, and a whole lot of "academic accounting". While I was an accountant (I lasted for 2 years), I used perhaps 2% of what I was taught in 4 years of college.

    I went back after a year of being an accountant and chatted with the Dean of the School of Business and several of my instructors. None of them cared to hear what I was telling them: that my time in school was worthless. That 90% of the classes I took were duplicates, redundant or totally useless in real world settings. To this day, I have a very low opinion of college education for those very reasons.

    My former gf has a degree in education, plus a masters and is now working on her doctorate. She's roughly the same age as I am, and is stuck in a dead-end job at the University of Minnesota, and won't get anywhere there (at the U of M) until she finishes her PhD, at which time, she will become eligible for a 3% pay raise plus seniority and PERHAPS a guaranteed employement option through age 60.

    IMO, regular college degrees are pretty much worthless. I'd like to see direct vocational schools that teach exactly the things students need to know without a whole lot of fluff thrown in. Does an accountant really need to take calculus, advanced computer programming, and 4 different statistics classes?

    /RANT

  3. #28
    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    I'm also a believer in the Tech school avenue for opticians. But I think it should be combined with an apprenticeship somehow.

    **Ducks**

  4. #29
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    The value of a liberal arts education has been debated for a long time. I am sorry yours was not what you expected.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqui View Post
    I'm also a believer in the Tech school avenue for opticians. But I think it should be combined with an apprenticeship somehow.

    **Ducks**
    And it always is, Jacqui. Hands-on work is a part of every program in the country.

  6. #31
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    Warren,

    I must give you credit my friend. You keep on keeping on, your message never changes. You are gracious and generous to even respond to some of the stuff written here.

    As many of you may know, today is the opticianry summit. It will be great to see what the first steps will be. Call me polyanna-girl, however, I remain optimistic. I am sure that Johns and Wes (representing the SAO there) will fill us in when they return. Wish I could be there, but I have a pesky little thing called 'final exam week' to tend to here (lol).

    Looking forward to our future,

    : )

    Laurie
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  7. #32
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    I swear, I have done about 5 evaluations today from patients who couldn't see out of their glasses. The last one had purchased glasses at a discount chain, and they were made correctly, but she complained about not being able to see out of them.

    After many, many questions, an over refraction and trial frame, I sent a very happy patient on her way back to the discount chain with an adjusted Rx.

    Before she left, she said that she had never talked to someone with more knowledge, that I must have gone to college for this, and she was shocked that there was no charge. She almost angrily stated, "So how do you get paid?" (This isn't the point though, so lets not hy-jack the thread on whether or not I should have charged her).

    The point is that I'm not the smartest optician (HELLO, Darryl Meister?)But I do have an education and experience, and I'm not a dodo head. I continually hear my patients tell me their experience with an educated optician is typically far superior to those who aren't. We as a profession aren't breeding super apprentices any more.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    Does an accountant really need to take calculus, advanced computer programming, and 4 different statistics classes?
    Actually, I think they probably should. Stats for sure. Computers yes - not because they are going to become computer programmers, but so they have some inkling of an idea of what the programmer must do when they converse with them to create the specific accounting software for company xyz.

    Today's world is hi-tech. Everything is hi-tech. If you really want to get a job out of school, go hi-tech. Middle management is nearly non-existent in large corps anymore. A guy coming straight out of college can sit next to the VP of a major F100 company and pass them in the hallway regularly. Yep, hitech is hard, hitech seems boring, but hitech is where the world is going. If you want to get a degree in Psychology, count on not finding a very good job. Those jobs are taken, and will be filled internally by those in the company that started out in the hitech part and worked their way to a fun job like that. Don't want to do hitech (biotech, chem, engineering, software) then go into nursing or be a doctor, be an accountant or a lawyer (better be a good one). Teaching too, but plan on starting in the bad part of town and be bilingual. Otherwise, I agree, don't waste your time and money with these other degrees - you'll end up in debt with no job prospects. The world has changed, and companies are replacing people with machines where ever possible. Go rent a car sometime, the bus drops you off with a car already - no need to see a person. Same with airlines. The list goes on....

  9. #34
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    I swear, I have done about 5 evaluations today from patients who couldn't see out of their glasses. The last one had purchased glasses at a discount chain, and they were made correctly, but she complained about not being able to see out of them.

    After many, many questions, an over refraction and trial frame, I sent a very happy patient on her way back to the discount chain with an adjusted Rx.

    Before she left, she said that she had never talked to someone with more knowledge, that I must have gone to college for this, and she was shocked that there was no charge. She almost angrily stated, "So how do you get paid?" (This isn't the point though, so lets not hy-jack the thread on whether or not I should have charged her).

    The point is that I'm not the smartest optician (HELLO, Darryl Meister?)But I do have an education and experience, and I'm not a dodo head. I continually hear my patients tell me their experience with an educated optician is typically far superior to those who aren't. We as a profession aren't breeding super apprentices any more.
    For this "consult" I would have charged $40...and gave her a coupon good for $60 off her next pair with you!

    B

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqui View Post
    I'm also a believer in the Tech school avenue for opticians. But I think it should be combined with an apprenticeship somehow.
    **Ducks**
    I agree with you that is realistic and practicle approach. The problem is that in the US Tech Schools have such a low fly-by-night reputation, where in Europe the Apprenticeship combined with some formal class education has a enormous degree of respect. The other issue is that it doesn't allow for lateral moves across the industry to different positions such as Sales Reps, but its a cultural issue here in the US.

  11. #36
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    Mike, my experience mirrors yours to a large degree. I am blessed though to be able to turn my personal bad experiences and use them to become a better instructor myself. I remember the crappy out dated material and classes I had and have promised to provide real information and knowledge students can use.

    I still favor a full higher education for the career flexibility it offers throughout the course of life, over a specialty degree that limits career options. Most people change careers an average of 4 times during thier life. Its impossible to prepare for every life turn, but the 4 year degree in a general field offers the best lateral career flexibility.

    College is far from perfect, and both our stories reflect that. But my hope is to do what I can so that education is relevant and usefull in the real world.


    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    I graduated from St. Cloud State University in 1977 with a B.S. (yes, it means exactly what you think it means bull****) in Accounting. My first job was in accounting and I knew very little of "real world" accounting, and a whole lot of "academic accounting". While I was an accountant (I lasted for 2 years), I used perhaps 2% of what I was taught in 4 years of college.

    I went back after a year of being an accountant and chatted with the Dean of the School of Business and several of my instructors. None of them cared to hear what I was telling them: that my time in school was worthless. That 90% of the classes I took were duplicates, redundant or totally useless in real world settings. To this day, I have a very low opinion of college education for those very reasons.

    My former gf has a degree in education, plus a masters and is now working on her doctorate. She's roughly the same age as I am, and is stuck in a dead-end job at the University of Minnesota, and won't get anywhere there (at the U of M) until she finishes her PhD, at which time, she will become eligible for a 3% pay raise plus seniority and PERHAPS a guaranteed employement option through age 60.

    IMO, regular college degrees are pretty much worthless. I'd like to see direct vocational schools that teach exactly the things students need to know without a whole lot of fluff thrown in. Does an accountant really need to take calculus, advanced computer programming, and 4 different statistics classes?

    /RANT

  12. #37
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    Last edited by idispense; 07-14-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  13. #38
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Scary that some people would take this guy's advice seriously. I would challenge anyone to refute the following facts:

    1. A significant percentage of jobs require higher education to even be considered and more of the best paying jobs will.

    2. College graduates with a bachelor's degree earn on average twice as much as high school graduates according to the US BLS; those with advanced degrees earn three times as much.

    3. Given two individuals equally qualified in every other way, most jobs will give preference to the individual with a degree over someone without one.

    4. Today, with unemployment so high that companies have their pick of the crop, a college education is virtually a requirement to remain competitive in this job market.

    Yes, if you get a degree in basket weaving, your degree may not command a high salary or be in especially high demand. And, yes, there are still jobs that do not necessarily require a degree to earn a high income, most notably sales, if you're good at sales and don't mind working strictly on commission.

    But you'll find that most of the better paying jobs now see a college education as mandatory today. Even this guy's point regarding the demand for workers with job experience is asinine, since you need to get a job before you can actually earn any experience, and a having a degree is more likely to get you one.

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Last edited by Darryl Meister; 05-02-2012 at 12:19 PM.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  14. #39
    Optimentor Diane's Avatar
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    It's a sad state of affairs when we look as education as not being a goal in life. What one does with that education is up to them, and certainly there are the "poor me's" who don't believe that they get what they deserve after an education. Look positively, folks, and acknowledge that a "degree" opens doors. It's up to you to walk through them and do something when you get there. Darryl has given some statistics, which each of us could actually get down and dirty statistics for if we searched for, which prove that on the whole a degree is significant to the earning power of an individual. And on another note, even if one chooses to stay at home, it makes one have a better opinion of themselves.

    Laurie, I haven't heard anything from the Opticianry Summit, yet, and am waiting with baited breath. You used a term "pollyanna-girl" that I refer to myself as. I suppose we are true "sistas". But, I am optimistic about our future, and believe that formal education is the only way that we can move forward. It's time for us to stop looking at apprenticeship as the main way to enter the profession, and this is from one who almost 37 years ago did it that way. Technology has advanced too much, and if we want to give our patients/customers/clients the best, we must be more knowledgeable. The best way to "begin" that knowledge is with formal education.


    OK, my opinion...:)

    Diane
    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

  15. #40
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Jeff Reeves, author of the article that began this silly topic, has a degree from....GASP!...Penn State. I wonder if it helped him get his job?

  16. #41
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane View Post
    It's a sad state of affairs when we look as education as not being a goal in life. What one does with that education is up to them, and certainly there are the "poor me's" who don't believe that they get what they deserve after an education. Look positively, folks, and acknowledge that a "degree" opens doors. It's up to you to walk through them and do something when you get there. Darryl has given some statistics, which each of us could actually get down and dirty statistics for if we searched for, which prove that on the whole a degree is significant to the earning power of an individual. And on another note, even if one chooses to stay at home, it makes one have a better opinion of themselves.

    Laurie, I haven't heard anything from the Opticianry Summit, yet, and am waiting with baited breath. You used a term "pollyanna-girl" that I refer to myself as. I suppose we are true "sistas". But, I am optimistic about our future, and believe that formal education is the only way that we can move forward. It's time for us to stop looking at apprenticeship as the main way to enter the profession, and this is from one who almost 37 years ago did it that way. Technology has advanced too much, and if we want to give our patients/customers/clients the best, we must be more knowledgeable. The best way to "begin" that knowledge is with formal education.


    OK, my opinion...:)

    Diane
    Diane, in the most absolute sense, "knowledge" is the goal, not education.

    B

  17. #42
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Diane, in the most absolute sense, "knowledge" is the goal, not education.

    B
    To take that thought a step further Barry, would you agree that ability should be the primary target > knowledge, > then perhaps education?

  18. #43
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    To take that thought a step further Barry, would you agree that ability should be the primary target > knowledge, > then perhaps education?

    Yep..."mastery" is all.

    B

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqui View Post
    Doctor is an academic degree, it has nothing to do with your job title. Most nursing instructors and Nurse Practitioners have a Doctor of Nursing or a Phd. in Nursing (both are the same).



    Either, although Doctor sounds nicer In emergencies I answer to almost anything.




    I do work as an on-call Midwife at a local hospital, so my foot is in the door. After 43 years in the optical business, I find that I like making things the most. I'll never give up my patients whether at the free clinics or during disasters or at the hospital.
    Thanks Jacqui for helping me understand. I am now all that much wiser today then I was yesterday.

    Again Thanks. Your awesome.

  20. #45
    Master OptiBoarder CCGREEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    Why do you assume opticians with a degree won't be able to do the work? We can all agree that a percentage of people who graduate from any field will in fact be lousy at their chosen degree field, but I don't get the negativety towards opticians with a degree. I've never heard of a medical practice who brands a new doctor as no good and instead welcomes with open arms an apprentice doctor.
    Optilady, Im sorry you thought that I "assumed opticians with a degree won't be able to do the work." that is not how I ment to come across.

    In my first line I said to "get the degree, but IF you cant do the work"............. I fail to see how one can assume that I had made a assumption when I had used the word "IF".

  21. #46
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    I too went to college. When I got out I could only find a job taking cleaning offices for $8 and now I say that frame looks good on you and take a pd and a sg ht for a living. 4 years did me good.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    Optilady, Im sorry you thought that I "assumed opticians with a degree won't be able to do the work." that is not how I ment to come across.

    In my first line I said to "get the degree, but IF you cant do the work"............. I fail to see how one can assume that I had made a assumption when I had used the word "IF".
    My reply wasn't against you, it's against so many here on OB who have a foul opinion about education because they are excellent opticians who didn't go to college. It's also against the opinion many have that "I've worked with opticians who have degrees and they were horrible, therefore there is no need for formal education."

    It's an absolute fact that there are excellent apprentice opticians, master opticians, who have been doing this for 35+ years, who have built a foundation for this field in ways that us relative newbies could never do. But I can't imagine any other field where there is such an "us verses them" attitude. More power to you that you learned everything on the job. We ALL learn on the job.

    But wouldn't it be great if most opticians out there learned in two years what apprentices did in their first 10 years?

  23. #48
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post

    But wouldn't it be great if most opticians out there learned in two years what apprentices did in their first 10 years?
    It would also be great if there was a chance at ROI for an optical education, if employers were really willing to pay more for an educated optician. Just a thought, not trying to rehash that whole thread.

  25. #50
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    It would also be great if there was a chance at ROI for an optical education, if employers were really willing to pay more for an educated optician. Just a thought, not trying to rehash that whole thread.
    You could probably say the same thing about nurses and teachers, but that doesn't stop people from pursuing those careers.

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