Choose VSP to Host Your Online Retail Eye Wear Website.

[RKJ]

VSP has started a pilot program as an internet retailer. The way I understand it, the VSP provider purchases a Website Service from VSP. And then, if a patient does not make a purchase after the eye exam, the office is asked/taught to assume the patient will shop online, and then educate the patient to buy online from the VSP site.

Each office sets their own fees for frames and lenses, on the VSP web pages attached to the VSP provider's website. VSP populates the site with Marchon and Altair frames, and VSP sets the wholesale fees for products. At present, all transactions are private pay; patients cannot use their VSP benefits - though that may change in the future. On the roll out, only Single Vision lens packages are offered.

I have a hand full of thoughts about this.

The first is that VSP providers are paying VSP for web services in addition to agreeing to VSP as wholesale lab of choice without comparative pricing of wholesale material fees.

Second, it seems like a bad idea to me, to begin teaching patients to shop for eye wear online…even with the belief the patient will buy from your own website. When VSP providers essentially sanction internet purchases, it seems crazy to believe that patients won’t shop around.

What am I missing?

I know internet retail is here to stay. It just seems like ECPs should have better options. There is opportunity for a private company to bring a better internet retail business model to market, one that is good for the lab, the patient, and the optical.

[AustinEyewear]

They are out of touch. Charging for the website, so they can sell their frames thru the private provider, is hard to understand. The least they could do, is provide the website free of charge, so they could help move their frames. Their presence on Frames Direct is not comprehensible. I'm at a loss of words for this dichotomy.

[racethe1320]

Not much time to reply with info today, but here's a brief bit:

if a patient does not make a purchase after the eye exam, the office is asked/taught to assume the patient will shop online, and then educate the patient to buy online from the VSP site.

The reality is that capture rates after the exam isn't always 100%. People are buying more an more online and it's by far better to capture the sale and a portion of the money associated with it vs today where you're not.

I have a hand full of thoughts about this.

The first is that VSP providers are paying VSP for web services in addition to agreeing to VSP as wholesale lab of choice without comparative pricing of wholesale material fees.

So what's your thought or rub? How does the comparative materials and fees even matter if the companies you are comparing them too aren't stepping up and offering you an online service that will help you as VSP's service is? So in the end, you want to shop on materials just like your patients are doing when shopping you vs online retailers ? Okay......

Second, it seems like a bad idea to me, to begin teaching patients to shop for eye wear online…even with the belief the patient will buy from your own website.

VSP isn't teachin patients to shop online. Do you really think VSP is on the cusp of teaching people about shopping online? Really? Customers are doing it in droves more and more every year. The idea is a good one. Burying your head in the sand and pretending they aren't isn't a winning approach. Hit it head on and capture their business if you can is.

When VSP providers essentially sanction internet purchases, it seems crazy to believe that patients won’t shop around. What am I missing?

Again, what you're missing is that patients are already doing this. You're correct in that if you believe patients aren't already doing this, you're crazy.

I know internet retail is here to stay. It just seems like ECPs should have better options. There is opportunity for a private company to bring a better internet retail business model to market, one that is good for the lab, the patient, and the optical.

So what does that solution look like?
Has anyone else in this market stepped up to provide you a solution that pays you back when your patients take their Rx and shop online?

This thread will no doubt become a great conversation spanning more than one page. In on 1.

[AustinEyewear]

Personally, I'd rather they did not do this. I don't like that they allow you to find a doctor who carries their frames. Its not up to date, and every time they change it, it gets out of date. I don't like that if you want a link to a website that represents your office, you have to pay for it. They way they designed this paid website is cheesy, so I really don't want to pay for it when I already pay for a website that is much better. I'd much rather prefer that they just indicate which plans you offer and provide a link to your own website. I don't understand why they have to get all wound up in the rest of it, but it definitely is not to our advantage, and if they quit doing it on Monday, I'd actually be happier. I don't understand why they won't allow us to build an online retail presence of our own - its against their policy, right? Yet they allow frames direct and myonline, and probably a few others to do it. So that also confuses me.

[optical24/7]

Why is the assumption that if a patient walks they're buying online? By their own industry estimates online accounts for 1-2% of eyewear sales, tops. That means that there's a 99% chance they are shopping your B&M competition.

What other profession *recommends* you buy online if you aren't buying from them? Lawyers? Plumbers? Veterinarians? Anyone?.... Bueller? Yea, some folks buy online. Should our profession/s endorse it? I think not.


As far as product or material fees; If you want to give me a website (free, nada, no-charge) then sure, dictate what products I can carry and whom I can get them from. But if you're wanting me to pay for a website I should have total say on what I carry and whom I procure it from. ( I know, I know, don't use their site will be the answer. And I agree!)

To compete on the net you'll have to lower your prices. Do you really want to get into explaining the price difference between your site and your office to your patients?

VSP is just trying to ***** as much money as they can with no regard for professional ethics.


Race, I don't think VSP could do anything that you wouldn't approve of, nor defend.

[racethe1320]

Personally, I'd rather they did not do this. I don't like that they allow you to find a doctor who carries their frames. Its not up to date, and every time they change it, it gets out of date.

So if you notice it's out of date for your practice just notify them. IMO they do a pretty good job and there's some illness on the tens of thousands of practices to also do their part and insure their information is correct. It doesn't all fall on VSP.

I don't like that if you want a link to a website that represents your office, you have to pay for it. They way they designed this paid website is cheesy, so I really don't want to pay for it when I already pay for a website that is much better.

So everything they do should be free? Does anyone else offer such a free option? If so, enjoy it. The nice thing about this is it's an option you don't have to do, thus if yours is better then I'm not sure why you're complaining?

I'd much rather prefer that they just indicate which plans you offer and provide a link to your own website. I don't understand why they have to get all wound up in the rest of it, but it definitely is not to our advantage, and if they quit doing it on Monday, I'd actually be happier.

How is it not to your advantage? So if one of your patients goes online and orders through your site your credited and win correct? What about all the times they don't? So now if VSP Patients of which hundreds of thousands per month hit their site then in turn go to their links and buy you get credited and that is somehow a bad thing for you? What about them stopping this Monday would make you happier? I mean if you're not seeing a benefit from it, happier doing it through your own website and don't want to participate then what's the rub...just opt out.

I don't understand why they won't allow us to build an online retail presence of our own - its against their policy, right? Yet they allow frames direct and myonline, and probably a few others to do it. So that also confuses me.

Frames direct and others aren't at all part of VSP. Last I checked, you're absolutely allowed to build your own online site. Where have you heard differently?

[racethe1320]

Why is the assumption that if a patient walks they're buying online? By their own industry estimates online accounts for 1-2% of eyewear sales, tops. That means that there's a 99% chance they are shopping your B&M competition.

I think it's pretty well known that patients and shoppers overall are using online sites for purchases. Again, I don't see anyone stopping opinions from being stated nor that they are forcing anyone to believe what their selling. It's an option for you to participate. It wouldn't be productive for them to worry about those that complain and make up the minority. Rather, just like any business, they have a plan and cater to those that support it and the rest....well, they can do as they please. No one is stopping them from doing so.

What other profession *recommends* you buy online if you aren't buying from them? Lawyers? Plumbers? Veterinarians? Anyone?.... Bueller? Yea, some folks buy online. Should our profession/s endorse it? I think not.

VSP isn't recommending anyone buy online. They are evolving with what the marketplace is doing and in many ways trying to respond in a more proactive and different approach. What they are doing is putting an option out there to capture a percentage of those that are so that the Rx's aren't lost to others without their practices being compensated in some way. Now again, if you don't think your patients are buying online, then great, you have an opinion and no worries then. However, is anyone else in the industry going so far as to insure your Rx and subsequent related purchases are credit back to you should the patient NOT buy through your perhaps already created web site? I'd love to see those sites. Does 1-800-petmeds credit back my flea treatments purchased through them back to my vet? Nope. Don't lawyers all have a bar association that funnels leads back to lawyers in the area? Yep. Plumbers pretty much all belong to some type of lead generating association right? Are those all free? Nope.

As far as product or material fees; If you want to give me a website (free, nada, no-charge) then sure, dictate what products I can carry and whom I can get them from. But if you're wanting me to pay for a website I should have total say on what I carry and whom I procure it from. ( I know, I know, don't use their site will be the answer. And I agree!)

Actually what makes you feel you're entitled to a free website? Perhaps you don't, I"m just asking. Now let's just say just because you're paying VSP to be a part of this program, what makes you feel that you're entitled to put Lux brand or any non brand VSP product on there? Hey, if that's what you want, then that option already exists many times over, go do it. However, if you don't like it, again, don't opt-in. What's the rub? Why would you expect them to support competitive brands? That would be just plain dumb. Does Lux or any other support VSP in any such way? Who says they won't down the road? Bueller, Bueller.....Bueller? Look at it this way, all those other means of online entry that you're practice is already involved in and likely pay for in some way....you can do what ever you want there, VSP isn't stopping you from advertising your other brands there.

To compete on the net you'll have to lower your prices. Do you really want to get into explaining the price difference between your site and your office to your patients?

Not really. Just set your prices as you wish. There are plenty of sites and retail fronts that ALREADY offer discounts if their materials are bought online. Customers understand and expect it. Retailers do it all the time. Best Buy and Target both offer discounts as do even local pizza places my family uses. Nothing to explain, it's a lower cost of doing business model. I buy products online all the time from Target because of it. Many stores even offer online only promotions. It's very typical.

VSP is just trying to ***** as much money as they can with no regard for professional ethics.

You're opinion. Again, mine is they are just simply confronting online head on and Heaven forbid they even try and tie in a benefit for the ECP's without anyone complaining. Geesh! Don't like it, then don't participate. Their VSP covered lives are employees of their customers that you opt-in to provide service for so there's no reason to have a rub about them marketing to those patients.

Race, I don't think VSP could do anything that you wouldn't approve of, nor defend.

Not true, but then I likewise, I see very little they do that anyone here fully understands or supports. I also see very little in the way of anyone here looking at the opposite sides of these discussions, and like I have said all along, I don't need to join the bands of others complaining about it all, as I'd much rather be the one who brings that other side of the discussion here. Don't buy what I'm selling then that's fine. I'm not stopping you voicing an opinion. I will however stick to asking what some call rhetorical questions. Perhaps they call them that because they rarely if ever come back with solid answers or facts. I wonder why....

[AustinEyewear]

Your right, they do a good job of getting it changed, but I just made a phone call to get it changed about 6 months ago. Its screwed up again. I can't stay on top of all of their changes and screw-ups, I've got enough of my own. The only reason I noticed it was wrong (again) was because of this thread. So who knows how long it has been wrong, and how many patients we have lost due to this error.

I'm not asking for a free website, I want them to just put a link to my current website. I don't think they will do this. They will only provide a link to their website (made for you) which is what I think is a cheesy, unprofessional looking website, that you have to pay them X dollars per month for. Its kind of a hidden franchise fee. I don't want that crappy website, I don't even want it for free. I just want a link to my website, which is current, and much, much better. Every frame vendor we work with provides a link to our website, every insurance plan we work with provides a link to our website, all of them do it happily, and for free, except VSP. Just a link, that is all I'm asking for.

I meant, Marchon will not allow us to sell their frames that we carry online at our website (as far as I know). I can do it, but I have to purchase a service which is owned by Essilor, and they take a big cut of the profits. So Marchon got in bed with both Essilor and Frames Direct to move their frames via online routes, but I don't think they will allow us to do it on our own.

[racethe1320]

Your right, they do a good job of getting it changed, but I just made a phone call to get it changed about 6 months ago. Its screwed up again. I can't stay on top of all of their changes and screw-ups, I've got enough of my own. The only reason I noticed it was wrong (again) was because of this thread. So who knows how long it has been wrong, and how many patients we have lost due to this error.

You know the flip side of that argument is who knows how many VSP Covered lives walk out of your office or others less than satisfied and they too in turn look back. (just making a statement man, not flaming you purposely. Just think about it) There are a ton of things that go on in your office daily that aren't perfect and in turn reflect back on VSP too. You and I have talked about their private label Unity lens; what if one of your patients gets an email about it and then complains back to VSP that their ECP didn't talk to them about it? Do you think that their dissatisfaction in that doesn't reflect back on VSP and the providers they have representing them? Again, a rhetorical example, but one to show that knife can cut both ways.

Next time you have a bad experience with your car dealership or hop online and vent about it, think about how many times the service side of a privately owned dealership comes back to put a black eye on the manufacturer. No different than here.

The other side of things is also to begin looking at what you know VSP has done right to support you and put people in your chairs or take care of your patients. Again, last I checked in my 35+ years in this business, I've yet to see a managed care company as willing to make things right nor easy to accomplish as VSP. Some will disagree and that's fine, but if you feel EyeMed or Davis or others are helping you as much, then I suggest you create a discussion around that in another thread. Let's see the posts that come from that thread.

I'm not asking for a free website, I want them to just put a link to my current website. I don't think they will do this. They will only provide a link to their website (made for you) which is what I think is a cheesy, unprofessional looking website, that you have to pay them X dollars per month for.

Okay, I follow you, but that's their choice. Do think they want 28k links on their site that just as you put in paragraph 1 of your reply here that in turn thye are responsible to keep working or accurate? You already said they can't keep up with what they have. Also, do you think they want to in any way put a link to your site, one that you created, that would in turn have Oakley or EyeMed items on it? They could but what's wrong with them shielding their patients from that? Smart move really. You may call their site cheesy and not like it, but no one has said you have to pay for it. You've mentioned that in that way more than once and I'm not seeing a hand being forced.

Its kind of a hidden franchise fee. I don't want that crappy website, I don't even want it for free. I just want a link to my website, which is current, and much, much better. Every frame vendor we work with provides a link to our website, every insurance plan we work with provides a link to our website, all of them do it happily, and for free, except VSP. Just a link, that is all I'm asking for.

Hey, voice your opinion to them but understand that they don't have to do what all the others are doing. It's their site and their marketing. I can't answer what their reasoning behind that. You can however, call and ask them.

I meant, Marchon will not allow us to sell their frames that we carry online at our website (as far as I know). I can do it, but I have to purchase a service which is owned by Essilor, and they take a big cut of the profits. So Marchon got in bed with both Essilor and Frames Direct to move their frames via online routes, but I don't think they will allow us to do it on our own.

Lots of frame brands have restrictions within their licensing agreement on how you market their products. I don't see Marchon "in bed" with the others as a negative thing. Those companies obviously move a crap load of product and are thus treated differently. I may not agree with it but unless I"m willing to write the same size check, to reap the same benefits, that's capitalism man. Walmart gets way better pricing than Joe's grocery too. Bose won't allow their products discounted online and many other retailers have only Select Channels that are able to sell products online while others in their network are not. Again, that's capitalism.

[AustinEyewear]

You know the flip side of that argument is who knows how many VSP Covered lives walk out of your office or others less than satisfied and they too in turn look back. (just making a statement man, not flaming you purposely. Just think about it) There are a ton of things that go on in your office daily that aren't perfect and in turn reflect back on VSP too. You and I have talked about their private label Unity lens; what if one of your patients gets an email about it and then complains back to VSP that their ECP didn't talk to them about it? Do you think that their dissatisfaction in that doesn't reflect back on VSP and the providers they have representing them? Again, a rhetorical example, but one to show that knife can cut both ways.

Next time you have a bad experience with your car dealership or hop online and vent about it, think about how many times the service side of a privately owned dealership comes back to put a black eye on the manufacturer. No different than here.

"That NOT the way I see it". Usually if there is an issue concerning VSP coverage, pt is mad at us, not other way around. Pt doesn't see VSP as a company, they have no idea who VSP is usually, they just know they have some insurance. "Benefits, I want my benefits. Who is your insurance company? I don't know, I think it is ESP or something like that." Any screw up we make is our problem and all venting is directed at us. Any VSP item not covered, it our fault, not their insurance company.

Okay, I follow you, but that's their choice. Do think they want 28k links on their site that just as you put in paragraph 1 of your reply here that in turn thye are responsible to keep working or accurate? You already said they can't keep up with what they have. Also, do you think they want to in any way put a link to your site, one that you created, that would in turn have Oakley or EyeMed items on it? They could but what's wrong with them shielding their patients from that? Smart move really. You may call their site cheesy and not like it, but no one has said you have to pay for it. You've mentioned that in that way more than once and I'm not seeing a hand being forced.

Yep, they are looking out for their own interests, not mine. We're just a tool to them. This is why I wish they would just remove it across the board. In order to compete with other VSP offices, I now must pay for this crappy website, otherwise we get less representation than an office that does pay for it. VSP has put me in a precarious position. If I don't purchase this junk, I will lose. So I have to purchase this junk website so I can keep up with my competitors who have purchased it. In a nutshell, VSP is throwing me into a dog fight that I don't want to be in.

Lots of frame brands have restrictions within their licensing agreement on how you market their products. I don't see Marchon "in bed" with the others as a negative thing. Those companies obviously move a crap load of product and are thus treated differently. I may not agree with it but unless I"m willing to write the same size check, to reap the same benefits, that's capitalism man. Walmart gets way better pricing than Joe's grocery too. Bose won't allow their products discounted online and many other retailers have only Select Channels that are able to sell products online while others in their network are not. Again, that's capitalism.

Agreed, looking out for their own interests, we're just a tool. One could even argue that buy selling more frames via this route, they can lower their costs, and provide us with lower cost frames. What ever..... they are not going out of their way to help us here, that is for sure.

I'm not saying other insurance companies are better, I'm just saying what I don't like about VSP specifically.

[racethe1320]

"That NOT the way I see it". Usually if there is an issue concerning VSP coverage, pt is mad at us, not other way around. Pt doesn't see VSP as a company, they have no idea who VSP is usually, they just know they have some insurance. "Benefits, I want my benefits. Who is your insurance company? I don't know, I think it is ESP or something like that." Any screw up we make is our problem and all venting is directed at us. Any VSP item not covered, it our fault, not their insurance company.

I suggest you contact VSP Customer Service and inquire as to how many patients per day contact them regarding issues. I think you'd be surprised to find that while they may have an issue with you, there are many instances when patients call VSP Directly. Even when they don't as a provider you do represent VSP so when the patient is unhappy with you, they are in turn unhappy with VSP. No different in the car dealership arena, thus why so many surveys are sent out after your car is serviced. Hell, there's a whole business just around that.

In terms of helping a VSP patient understand their insurance and benefits, that's your role too you know. As a provider that's your job and in fact part of the the dispensary's responsibility. If you aren't helping patients maximize their benefits you're not doing your job and I would question whether your opticians are truly selling. That is the retail side of the business where selling is involved. One could argue selling in the lane should be occurring too.

Yep, they are looking out for their own interests, not mine. We're just a tool to them. This is why I wish they would just remove it across the board.

It's your opinion that they aren't looking out for your interests, I won't try and debate your opinions with you. I can say I'm still waiting on your providing me companies out there who are willing to reimburse you when your patient takes an Rx to another company and makes a purchase. Let's continue this point once you do as I'd like to see these companies that are supporting your interests as VSP is doing. I still don't see how them removing it would benefit or be a care to you. I'm waiting on that too.

In order to compete with other VSP offices, I now must pay for this crappy website, otherwise we get less representation than an office that does pay for it.

So by your own accounts, their online service offering IS going to benefit other VSP Practices when they belong to it vs your office who may chose not to? So if that "less than equal representation" is a concern of yours when the choice to participate or not is yours. You still have yet to convince me that such a decision then becomes VSP's fault. Let's consider that the third thing I'm waiting on you to share with me.

VSP has put me in a precarious position. If I don't purchase this junk, I will lose. So I have to purchase this junk website so I can keep up with my competitors who have purchased it. In a nutshell, VSP is throwing me into a dog fight that I don't want to be in.

That's your opinion. You know I could say the exact same thing about The Yellow Pages, which I absolutely do not advertise in, yet for some some strange reason I don't. No one is putting you into the dog fight. The "dog fight" as you call it is called capitalism and the right to have your own business that you (or your owner) took on when the doors opened. You and I look at things differently. You seem to see things like this as happening to you vs me where I see things happening because of me. When someone walks out of my practice with their Rx and doesn't use my dispensary, it's because WE aren't doing something, not because someone else is. The patient is voting to not use us and that's my problem to resolve not the fault of anything VSP, Essilor, WalMart the Yellow Pages or anyone else. I am the owner and I accept that responsibility. As independents we all have that same responsibility and I own coming up with the solution to change it.

Agreed, looking out for their own interests, we're just a tool. One could even argue that buy selling more frames via this route, they can lower their costs, and provide us with lower cost frames. What ever..... they are not going out of their way to help us here, that is for sure. I'm not saying other insurance companies are better, I'm just saying what I don't like about VSP specifically.

ALL businesses are out to maintain and evolve to survive. Is there anyone here on this board out to help insure the survival of VSP or help secure their interests? I'll answer that and say I doubt it. That said, you're then faulting not just VSP but EVERY company in a capitalistic market for looking out for their interests first. Do you think that then means they don't support yours in some way? Let's reserve another thread for what this US Market would look like without VSP. I'll preface that by asking the international community here in say Europe or Australia about it.

You know what's interesting is that a lot has changed in the is marketplace over my time in it, including the players involved both vendors and docs. Yet anytime the players try and evolve they are criticized for it yet no one wants to discuss how much their own practices have changed over the years.

• You don't like that VSP is trying to enter the online market, yet you have?
• You don't like that they have to watch out for their own interests, yet you do.
• You don't like that they won't support competitive products directly or indirectly, but do you? (well I guess many of you do in that you carry Oakley) Zing!
• Many practices market their own private label lenses yet VSP is criticized when then do
• You don't like the fact that clients choose to shop around and go elsewhere but why isn't that your responsibility to deal with and own?
• You don't like that patients don't often understand their insurance; yet what role do you play in that?

Wow, this is a tough crowd.

[AustinEyewear]

So by your own accounts, their online service offering IS going to benefit other VSP Practices when they belong to it vs your office who may chose not to? So if that "less than equal representation" is a concern of yours when the choice to participate or not is yours. You still have yet to convince me that such a decision then becomes VSP's fault. Let's consider that the third thing I'm waiting on you to share with me.

First, I think we should make sure we're discussing the same crappy website page. Its the one that a patient goes to find providers in their area. This one: https://www.vsp.com/find-eye-doctors.html?id=guest - find your office and you will see the crappy webpage I refer to, that is, if you pay for the service.

They used to provide a link to your website, but they deliberately took this away. VSP is smart. They know damn well the repercussions they made when they chose to make us pay for this privilege of additional advertisement via this crappy webpage they offer. If I choose not to pay, then I will most likely lose business to other offices who do pay. They have created a competitive environment that used to not exist. Now if I want equal representation via my "partner", who is VSP, who I bring business to, I must give them money. No other insurance company has put me in this position. So, I give VSP bad marks in this area. Its kind of sinister what they did here, they had to go round and round thinking about this, fulling knowing it would force a providers hand into paying them.

That's your opinion. You know I could say the exact same thing about The Yellow Pages, which I absolutely do not advertise in, yet for some some strange reason I don't. No one is putting you into the dog fight. The "dog fight" as you call it is called capitalism and the right to have your own business that you (or your owner) took on when the doors opened.

I don't see the similarities at all with yellow pages. I am not bringing business to yellow pages. I am bringing business to VSP. They get to sell lots of frame and lenses because of us.

[racethe1320]

First, I think we should make sure we're discussing the same crappy website page. Its the one that a patient goes to find providers in their area. This one: https://www.vsp.com/find-eye-doctors.html?id=guest - find your office and you will see the crappy webpage I refer to, that is, if you pay for the service.

Yep, we're there along with 10+ Pages. Works fine. I also insure that we're on google and yahoo, etc. just the same. IMO, VSP should stack rank the listings based on those who support their lines of business too. I support a number of them and am pis$ed that others around me who absolutely don't appear close to me in the listing! I say they should support those that support them MORE Than those that don't. I think VSP SHOULD prefernece it's more supportive practices over the less supportive ones. That's creating more value to folks like me. I don't think every one of their panel providers is equal nor do I think they should be treated as such. Every other business has tiers of support / programs.

They used to provide a link to your website, but they deliberately took this away. VSP is smart. They know damn well the repercussions they made when they chose to make us pay for this privilege of additional advertisement via this crappy webpage they offer.

So you DO Feel entitled to a FREE advertisement on their crappy webpage. Let me ask you, if it's so crappy, then why are wanting to be there or even care? If you don't feel it's benefiting you then what's the rub? If you feel that it's going to hurt you NOT to pay for this service then why do you feel entitled to get the benefit for FREE? I'm really confused. You know I used to get free delivery on my dry cleaning, now I have to pay for that too. I hate that a once free service that I see value in now has a cost associated with it. Guess what, it's enough of a value still that I'm willing to pay for it and not feel entitled to it for free still.

If I choose not to pay, then I will most likely lose business to other offices who do pay. They have created a competitive environment that used to not exist. Now if I want equal representation via my "partner", who is VSP, who I bring business to, I must give them money.

Again, you've stated there IS value to this link/advertisement/service, however you reference it yet you're mad that what they used to do is offer it for free and now are charging you for it. Hmmmm...what's the rub? Should I be mad that my local TV Stations are available over the air but to get the best picture quality I have to pay for cable? Should I be mad at my favorite iPad app that used to be free is now charging me to own it? Come on man, is that really a realistic view to have? I want to see your side of it, but you're not making it easy.

No other insurance company has put me in this position. So, I give VSP bad marks in this area.

No other insurancy company does this? Really? Flip over the next Eye Med Patient you see's insruance card and tell me the companies you see listed as providers. I think they VERY MUCH put you in a spot that is very much different than VSP. Ask that patient if they have ever gotten aLensCrafters, Pearle Vision, Sears Optical and Target Optical coupon in the mail welcoming them to EyeMed coverage. They absolutely do.

You've done the search on VSP's site for your practice. Tell me where Costco and ECCA providers are listed. Do you see them easily? Are they listed right next to your office? Now go do the same search based on your Zip code on EyeMed's page and tell me the same. Please feel free to post screen shots too. Tell me then who supports you as an independent more.

Its kind of sinister what they did here, they had to go round and round thinking about this, fulling knowing it would force a providers hand into paying them.

So by your theory, VSP or any company in a capitalistic market for that matter, should run their business by lowering the bar based on how their competitors run theirs? Really? You give VSP bad marks for creating a service that you used to get for free, then moved to charging you for it, mind you, a service you see value in so much so that by not participating you admit would hurt you, yet now that charge you for it, they are the bad guys? Do you think they might have a cost associated with running their business that needs covered? Again, I'm confused as to the entitlement vibe I'm getting here. I agree with the decision to charge for it. If it weeds out a few of the others that don't then great. See my thoughts in paragraph one. Not every practice is equal.

I don't see the similarities at all with yellow pages. I am not bringing business to yellow pages. I am bringing business to VSP. They get to sell lots of frame and lenses because of us.

Ahh.....I see, so you see VSP patients as your patients first and something you're bringing to VSP, not the other way around eh? Sure....so all those VSP Patients out there would be breaking down the doors to pay you full price as a private pay patient vs using their benefits if you weren't a part of the VSP Panel. You've already told us that you know that not to be the case. If that were in fact true, your owner would drop VSP all together, you said it yourself.

Let me remind you that the VSP Patients you're seeing are not your patients first. Their employers are clients of VSP, those employees are then in turn selecting a managed care plan of their choosing and using their benefits are at your office that is providing services to them. I"m sorry but you have things backwards if you think you own the client and patient. If you did then you would be 100% private pay or not a panel provider and balance billing people as out of network. I doubt either is the case. Managed care is here to stay and if you don't like it, then opt out of providing for them and see how many of your patients still come see you. Believe me, I've been in practice since before managed care was mainstream and I know what the reality of today's market is like. Just as every patient, vendor and insurance company has evolved, so too must we as private practices.

I'm not saying some won't or that you can't make a living doing so; many here do. However, your world will be different and not always for the better. I know you know that as you've been arguing that the service VSP is providing you has merit, you just don't like the details of it or having to pay for it.

I'm still waiting on your providing me companies out there who are willing to reimburse you when your patient takes an Rx to another company and makes a purchase.

[AustinEyewear]

Yep, we're there along with 10+ Pages. Works fine. I also insure that we're on google and yahoo, etc. just the same. IMO, VSP should stack rank the listings based on those who support their lines of business too. I support a number of them and am pis$ed that others around me who absolutely don't appear close to me in the listing! I say they should support those that support them MORE Than those that don't.

they probably should. BTW - those webpages allow you to put other ins providers on there too, so they didn't do it to protect their interest, they did it to make 28Kx40x12 / year.

So you DO Feel entitled to a FREE advertisement on their crappy webpage.

No, no man, I don't. Never said that. I said they are creating a dog fight that used to not exist, and no other insurance company has created this dog fight. I do not feel entitled to anything. [/quote]

Ahh.....I see, so you see VSP patients as your patients first and something you're bringing to VSP, not the other way around eh? Sure....so all those VSP Patients out there would be breaking down the doors to pay you full price as a private pay patient vs using their benefits if you weren't a part of the VSP Panel. You've already told us that you know that not to be the case. If that were in fact true, your owner would drop VSP all together, you said it yourself.

Let me remind you that the VSP Patients you're seeing are not your patients first. Their employers are clients of VSP, those employees are then in turn selecting a managed care plan of their choosing and using their benefits are at your office that is providing services to them. I"m sorry but you have things backwards if you think you own the client and patient. If you did then you would be 100% private pay or not a panel provider and balance billing people as out of network. I doubt either is the case. Managed care is here to stay and if you don't like it, then opt out of providing for them and see how many of your patients still come see you. Believe me, I've been in practice since before managed care was mainstream and I know what the reality of today's market is like. Just as every patient, vendor and insurance company has evolved, so too must we as private practices.
.

I see your in the debating mood this morning :) You're putting words into my mouth. I only said I sell lots of frame and lenses for them.

[racethe1320]

they probably should. BTW - those webpages allow you to put other ins providers on there too, so they didn't do it to protect their interest, they did it to make 28Kx40x12 / year.

In case you missed my comment above:

No other insurance company does this? Really? Flip over the next Eye Med Patient you see's insruance card and tell me the companies you see listed as providers. I think they VERY MUCH put you in a spot that is very much different than VSP. Ask that patient if they have ever gotten a LensCrafters, Pearle Vision, Sears Optical and Target Optical coupon in the mail welcoming them to EyeMed coverage. They absolutely do.

You've done the search on VSP's site for your practice. Tell me where Costco and ECCA providers are listed. Do you see them easily? Are they listed right next to your office? Now go do the same search based on your Zip code on EyeMed's page and tell me the same. Please feel free to post screen shots too. Tell me then who supports you as an independent more.

No, no man, I don't. Never said that. I said they are creating a dog fight that used to not exist, and no other insurance company has created this dog fight. I do not feel entitled to anything.

You implied it clearly and not they have not created the dog fight. See my point above to see who really is creating the dog fight. Lastly, if you're not feeling entitled, then what's the rub about paying for the service. You don't have to answer that last one. I know you've tried, but perhaps I'm not seeing it.

I see your in the debating mood this morning :) You're putting words into my mouth. I only said I sell lots of frame and lenses for them.

Yes I am. You don't sell lots of frames and lenses for them. You sell them for you and your practice. All kinds of vendors benefit from your sales, VSP included. Again, welcome to capitalism. Zero wrong with that. Nothing there at all to fault or hold against VSP or any of the vendors involved.

[AustinEyewear]

In case you missed my comment above:

No other insurance company does this? Really? Flip over the next Eye Med Patient you see's insruance card and tell me the companies you see listed as providers. I think they VERY MUCH put you in a spot that is very much different than VSP. Ask that patient if they have ever gotten a LensCrafters, Pearle Vision, Sears Optical and Target Optical coupon in the mail welcoming them to EyeMed coverage. They absolutely do.

You've done the search on VSP's site for your practice. Tell me where Costco and ECCA providers are listed. Do you see them easily? Are they listed right next to your office? Now go do the same search based on your Zip code on EyeMed's page and tell me the same. Please feel free to post screen shots too. Tell me then who supports you as an independent more.

I'll give you that. But I don't really consider these as competitors. I'd almost rather be surrounded by them, then other ECPs. It would make us stand out more in the list.

You implied it clearly and not they have not created the dog fight. See my point above to see who really is creating the dog fight. Lastly, if you're not feeling entitled, then what's the rub about paying for the service. You don't have to answer that last one. I know you've tried, but perhaps I'm not seeing it.

My rub is, my partner who is VSP, who I sell lots of frame and lenses for, is pitting me against other competitors down the street and if I want to ensure I get represented on the VSP website EQUALLY, I must pay them. You can twist these words into other conglomerations, but this is it, this is the rub. Why would my partner do this to me? Its essentially forcing me to purchase something I don't want. The product sucks, but if I choose not to pay, I do so at my own peril.

[racethe1320]

I'll give you that. But I don't really consider these as competitors. I'd almost rather be surrounded by them, then other ECPs. It would make us stand out more in the list.

My rub is, my partner who is VSP, who I sell lots of frame and lenses for, is pitting me against other competitors down the street and if I want to ensure I get represented on the VSP website EQUALLY, I must pay them.

So your rub is that a vendor (VSP) that you sell product for is pitting you against other VSP offices in your area and you don't feel you should have to pay them anything in order to get equal representation.

• How does the fact that you sell product for them even matter? We all sell products for them too.
• Define what makes your practice special?
• How is your way then fair to those that do pay?
• Do you sell the same volume as those around you?
• Do you think perhaps those around you feel a rub against VSP for allowing you to pay the same as they do and yet get the same representation even though they support VSP Brands and sell more than you?

I'm sorry but arguing for Equality to me doesn't fly. The world isn't fair and IMO just paying a fee and being representative equally is BS. Those that support them more should be preferenced and those that pay vs those that don't should be preferenced. That's my opinion. Pay for performance as they call it. Just like in sports, the real players make more come pay day and in marketing of our businesses, those that pay for advertising get more leads and visibility/exposure.

You can twist these words into other conglomerations, but this is it, this is the rub. Why would my partner do this to me?

I'm not twisting it. The facts are that VSP supports you on their search page way more than EyeMed and others and they are your partners too, yet VSP is where you have a rub. Do you see why I'm confused?

Its essentially forcing me to purchase something I don't want. The product sucks, but if I choose not to pay, I do so at my own peril.

If you feel it's forcing you then be definition you're stating you see a value. So it's then up to you to either pay for that value or choose not to. They aren't forcing you. To say the product sucks doesn't make sense because if you truly feel that then why do you feel opting out would cause you peril or that the reverse, but participating would benefit you? If it really sucks, then it wouldn't benefit you and you wouldn't care if you were in the program.

That's like saying having to pay for a medicine that if not taken will cause you to die is wrong. Last I checked I still have to pay for my heart meds and that if I don't, yes, I'll be at a disadvantage in life. That's life in America man.

Makes sense?

[optical24/7]

Race, I don't think you've answered Renee's original post;

" VSP has started a pilot program as an internet retailer. The way I understand it, the VSP provider purchases a Website Service from VSP. And then, if a patient does not make a purchase after the eye exam, the office is asked/taught to assume the patient will shop online, and then educate the patient to buy online from the VSP site."

The blue I highlighted is my concern. You said, " VSP isn't recommending anyone buy online." If you have a link on your website to direct people to a *netherworld* location to purchase corrective eyewear online, you are recommending it, guilt by association even if you didn't benefit from it.

I mean, "It must not be so bad. They have a link right here! I don't need no stinkin' optodude to get some glasses! I can do it myself!" " And hey, nextime, I'll bypass Doc Joe Blow and refract myself with my iPad!"



Yea, this is what we as a profession should be doing.... Oh yea,.... I forgot "everybody's doing it." So I'm gonna do it too?

Sorry you think internut Rx delivery is a-ok. I don't. Frame, cl's..they're a comodity, Rx glasses aren't. There's a line there.

[AustinEyewear]

That's like saying having to pay for a medicine that if not taken will cause you to die is wrong.

Not really, its more like someone injecting me with a poison, and then saying if I don't pay for the antidote, I will die. Its only a value because of the manipulation that was done.

[racethe1320]

Race, I don't think you've answered Renee's original post;

" VSP has started a pilot program as an internet retailer. The way I understand it, the VSP provider purchases a Website Service from VSP. And then, if a patient does not make a purchase after the eye exam, the office is asked/taught to assume the patient will shop online, and then educate the patient to buy online from the VSP site."

I understand Renee's post....it's all the way they understand the program. I don't agree with their understanding of it nor do I think they have contacted anyone at VSP with the knowledge of this program.

• I've not seen anywhere that VSP is asking practices to educate their patients to buy online.
• VSP is not redirecting patients to do so either.
• There is no charge to participate in Eyeconic
• You don't have participate in Eyeconic

If you have a link on your website to direct people to a *netherworld* location to purchase corrective eyewear online, you are recommending it, guilt by association even if you didn't benefit from it.

Eyeconic.com is the netherworld, it's the only site that I know of that when a patient buys contacts or Rx glasses that they will use the Rx to pay the originating office fees that they otherwise would have lost to other online retailers. No guilt associated with it. Sounds like you need to get a bit more insight on the whole program.

I mean, "It must not be so bad. They have a link right here! I don't need no stinkin' optodude to get some glasses! I can do it myself!" " And hey, nextime, I'll bypass Doc Joe Blow and refract myself with my iPad!"

I can honestly say you have completely incorrect view of their online offer if that's what you believe VSP's stance on this is. I'd also add that if you're going to taut that as your stance that you back it up with some facts otherwise, it's just a pretty far out there opinion that contributes little value to the group.

"everybody's doing it." So I'm gonna do it too?

Again, that's not what I see VSP is stating. Please link me to where you see that as part of their communications on the matter. Bottom line is burying your head in the sand and not confronting reality isn't the answer. Continuing to do nothing different is going to get you exactly what you're seeing now. However, VSP is also giving you that option....opt out. I trust that what you will be doing. /your involvement I guess.

Sorry you think internut Rx delivery is a-ok. I don't. Frame, cl's..they're a comodity, Rx glasses aren't. There's a line there.

Where did I state my opinion on Rx Delivery via internet without doc involvement is A-OK? The market is guiding the evolution of eyewear purchases. I'm sure VSP is flattered that in one breath you say they are causing all this and in another that their existence is meaningless and not necessary.

[racethe1320]

• Have any of you had a VSP patient leave your office after an exam and not buy prescription contacts?
• How many people do you think visit 1-800contacts.com after leaving?
• Would you not rather see VSP offer a competitive option that keeps them tied to your practice?
• Don't you think VSP Knows exactly who the patients are that exercise 1-800contacts.com and take their benefits out of network by doing so?
  
  • Who knows that answer more accurately you or VSP?
  • That said, if they know, wouldn't you WANT VSP to market something to those patients that would in turn tie them back to you so that you could then earn the sale or at the very least stay in the fight?
  
  
• Is ANYONE in the market connecting those lost sales back to your office in ANY WAY? Please show me.

Just a few basic questions that come to mind when discussing this subject. I look forward to the continued discussion.

[RKJ]

• Have any of you had a VSP patient leave your office after an exam and not buy prescription contacts?
• How many people do you think visit 1-800contacts.com after leaving?

In most optometry businesses, capture rate is not 100%, especially if the doctor is providing medical eye care. For example, the patient returning for diabetic health exams will receive frequent refractions and we don't expect an eye wear purchase to result from each 92015.

In addition, some patients do not purchase eye wear every year. Some are motivated if there is a prescription change and some buy when they can afford it.

If 3% of patients are buying prescription eye wear online (,http://www.visionmonday.com/ViewContent/tabid/211/content_id/32798/Default.aspx) and almost half of those Rx's do not meet z80 standards (http://www.visionmonday.com/CMSDocuments/Safety%20&%20Compliance%20of%20Prescription%20Eyewear%20Purc hased%20Online%209-2011.pdf), are we - as a profession - ready to educate those we don't capture (perhaps 40% of our patients) to buy online?

• Would you not rather see VSP offer a competitive option that keeps them tied to your practice?
• Don't you think VSP Knows exactly who the patients are that exercise 1-800contacts.com and take their benefits out of network by doing so?
  
  • Who knows that answer more accurately you or VSP?
  • That said, if they know, wouldn't you WANT VSP to market something to those patients that would in turn tie them back to you so that you could then earn the sale or at the very least stay in the fight?
  
  
• Is ANYONE in the market connecting those lost sales back to your office in ANY WAY? Please show me.

The way I understand it, each provider will have the same frame and lens products online and each will pay the same wholesale cost for those products. To the consumer, the only difference will be retail price, which is set by individual providers. If I were a VSP patient, and liked a Marchon or Altair frame, I would look up the VSP providers in my area, and comparison shop based on price.

If I were a VSP provider, I would look at this system and join, then lowball the price for products and charge every patient who walks in the door with eye wear purchased online, a dispensing service fee. Unbundle the dispensing service and charge for professional services. I made a free calculator with video explanation, to help offices set appropriate unbundled limited dispensing fees: http://www.practicemanagementdepot.c...Calculator.php

VSP has made the assumption that VSP doctors will continue to include the fees for dispensing services in those fees posted online - because we, as a profession, tend to be set in our ways.

I don't see the current business model as a great advantage to providers, the way it exists at present. This is a good time to talk about what we want from an internet retailer, VSP or a competitor. Simply jumping on the bandwagon, out of fear that we need to be in the game regardless of the unintended consequences, seems pre-mature. I'm not sure VSP providers are thinking this through.

The opticians, the people with knowledge in the field, those who run opticals and look at profitability and sustainability- they need to have these conversations and bring sanity to the situation at hand. It looks to me like the businesses with high numbers of VSP patients, have the most to lose.

[racethe1320]

In most optometry businesses, capture rate is not 100%, especially if the doctor is providing medical eye care. For example, the patient returning for diabetic health exams will receive frequent refractions and we don't expect an eye wear purchase to result from each 92015.

In addition, some patients do not purchase eye wear every year. Some are motivated if there is a prescription change and some buy when they can afford it.

Sure the rates will never be 100% for obvious reasons. My point wasn't that they are just simply leaving your facility and only buying online either. Many will leave your store and go elsewhere for reasons such as selection, perhaps service or perhaps just out of convenience too.

The real point is if VSP is going after the market, I think it's fair to say they know 100% when and where their covered lives exercise in and out of network benefits and they can clearly then formulate a plan to stay in front of them. VSP obviously and quite clearly is saying they know that and have a plan to do what they can to keep them in network thus benefiting their panel doctors. Check out their Proof is in the Patients campaign and contact them with questions or discussion points afterwards. Heck, post back here with your findings so that others can learn too.

Like it or not the trend of online is increasing and here to stay. A plan is necessary and to everyone who doesn't like change, the message remains the same, embrace it or die.

Vision Council Survey Predicts Online Retailing Will Increase:
http://www.visionmonday.com/ViewContent/tabid/211/Parent_content_id/32746/content_id/32768/Default.aspx

I agree that there's a percentage of consumers that are simply window shopping and that online optical sales isn't soaring upwards just yet as it's a more intimate sale that people are more comfortable actually being there to try them on. However, it's worth noting for the very same reason people said that about online shoe sales back in the mid 1990's and then along came Zappo's in late 1999 and the world of online shoe sales has not been the same since.

We're also talking about eyewear overall, not just glasses. Worth noting is the point in the article that the figure is Approximately 32 percent of people using the internet to assist in their last purchase of eyewear actually made the purchase directly online.

Also noted is that the number of eyewear buyers who will possibly or probably use the internet to buy eyewear in the future continues to increase.

So why strike now and why be proactive? Again, note the same source, which clearly shows when consumers using the internet to some extent already when purchasing eyewear will likely continue to do so in the future. I made the comment earlier in the thread about my vet and flea/tick medicine. I began ordering it online years ago and have no plans to change. Yeah, I'm a consumer too.

Check out the stats in this link about customer satisifaction. Goes to support the previous statement about once online, always online.

If 3% of patients are buying prescription eye wear online (,http://www.visionmonday.com/ViewContent/tabid/211/content_id/32798/Default.aspx) and almost half of those Rx's do not meet z80 standards (http://www.visionmonday.com/CMSDocuments/Safety%20&%20Compliance%20of%20Prescription%20Eyewear%20Purc hased%20Online%209-2011.pdf), are we - as a profession - ready to educate those we don't capture (perhaps 40% of our patients) to buy online?

So now to your point about educating those you don't capture. Do you have a plan to deal with them? Do you not want the support of a company like VSP on your side? Either way, the choice is yours and that's essentially what VSP is saying. You're free to participate or not. The market is driving the change, VSP is evolving and offering to help you do the same. Nothing they are doing is happening to you because of them.

The way I understand it, each provider will have the same frame and lens products online and each will pay the same wholesale cost for those products. To the consumer, the only difference will be retail price, which is set by individual providers. If I were a VSP patient, and liked a Marchon or Altair frame, I would look up the VSP providers in my area, and comparison shop based on price.

No, each provider will NOT have the same frame and lens selection. That's the point. You make the decision on what Altair and Marchon frames you offer. Also, if one of your patients does that and then tries to buy it their glasses from me for $5 they will still be required to enter a verified Rx which tracks back to you and thus you are the one that gets the dispensing fees and sale not me. Again, that's the whole point of their site vs others. Now if you don't participate and your Rx is verified, then your dispensing fee and sale goes to the practice closest in proximity to the ship to address. Your choice to be included or not. Again for clarity......you make that choice.

In terms of pricing by your rational the lowest price sellers of online products always win? That's clearly not the case in online sales. If it were, Walmart.com would be the winner clearly and yet a recent article shows they are actually at the bottom of the spectrum. Amazon also is another example. They offer products and clearly show the lowest to highest reseller, yet tout that even the rankings they show clearly indicate satisfaction with the experience and retailer trump low pricing.

The article about Walmart showed that:

• Walmart needs to bolster its online presence: NOTE: VSP is doing what even Walmart isn't....increasing an online presence. Smart and good for those of us that are their panel providers.
• Exclusive products help: Note Barns and Noble Nook Reader that saved them while amazon crushed the rest who were all the same and not unique with their Kindle products. Again, note how VSP Has private label offerings, some exclusive to their providers only.
• Maybe Walmart should digitally stalk its customers: Basically stating Walmart needs to begin tracking customers....hint, hint, VSP Can and likely does do that. Smart and a great way to insure their practices survive.

Just like with your B&M dispensary, price is NOT the leading factor. What is becomes completely and 100% your responsibility. VSP is providing you an option to play in the game of online sales. How well you do is up to you, not them. As others here have said, you might already have an online site. Great; then opt out of VSP's.

I don't see the current business model as a great advantage to providers, the way it exists at present. This is a good time to talk about what we want from an internet retailer, VSP or a competitor. Simply jumping on the bandwagon, out of fear that we need to be in the game regardless of the unintended consequences, seems pre-mature. I'm not sure VSP providers are thinking this through.

After what I've shared here, do yoiu still feel there's not great advantage to providers? What's missing? Share your thoughts? Also, I don't see where VSP is showing signs that they are jumping to this out of fear. I see it as them being proactive and acting quickly because as with companies like Blockbuster and Circuit City and now to some extent Netflix (who is under fire from online themselves) if you wait, the world around you can and will quickly eat our lunch for us. Burying our collective heads in the sand isn't the answer. Don't believe me, then check out Marketwatch.com and look into Coastal Contacts, the worlds largest online eyewear company. They our eating your lunch already.

the opticians, the people with knowledge in the field, those who run opticals and look at profitability and sustainability- they need to have these conversations and bring sanity to the situation at hand. It looks to me like the businesses with high numbers of VSP patients, have the most to lose.

You're right. How many of those people with knowledge in the field....say the many, many folk right here on Optiboard are involved in discussions with VSP about this? I can answer that with certainty as I think everyone here knows I am one of the very few if not the only one here who is. I'm quite involved, vocal and well heard. I make it my point to be and they welcome it. They listen too. Believe it or not I know they do.

VSP too is very interested in our profitability and sustainability. Does anyone here doubt that? Please think about the answer before you reply. Of course they do, their panel providers ARE their retail store fronts. Still not interested in supporting the fight, then bend over because Luxottica has already crafted a deal with drugstore.com to fulfill their four big retail chains sale to customers buying online contact lenses. Good luck going up against them in your independent online run stores.

Again, thanks for the conversation. I hope I've been able to share a bit more information that proves helpful.

[OHPNTZ]

Does anyone else here think "Race" is somehow employed by VSP, as a lobyist or representative for the company?


I can't believe how fast this guy is on any posts with VSP in the title. And not once has he ever agreed with anyone questioning this *cough, cough* not for profit company. Not once. No other pertinent posts... I would estimate 96% of his posts are defending VSP.

Can we get a full disclosure from the moderators here???

[racethe1320]

Does anyone else here think "Race" is somehow employed by VSP, as a lobyist or representative for the company?

I'm flattered that you think that. I think Have I not even put it in my profile that what I aim to share here is an alternative view on VSP? I thought I was pretty upfront about it really.

I can't believe how fast this guy is on any posts with VSP in the title. And not once has he ever agreed with anyone questioning this *cough, cough* not for profit company. Not once. No other pertinent posts... I would estimate 96% of his posts are defending VSP.

Sure I have. I know of at least once.
In terms of my agreeing, is that what you're basing your thoughts of me on, whether I agree with others and what they say about VSP?
Have I not been clear in my replies with enough details as to why I might be disagreeing?
Have I not been clear enough that I have been appointed by you and others as "Race to Save VSP" and actually I chuckle inside and say, what the heck, why not embrace my new found appointment others have bestowed upon me. I mean, why not?
Again, have I ever tried to hide the fact that I am now here to represent the the opposing views others seem to post about them? Is anyone else doing that?
Is what I'm sharing not contributing in a unique way? What you rather have do, just nod in agreement and not say anything different? Wow....I'll say it for the 33rd time, that's a pretty boring expectation you have of newer members. Honestly, the last thing this board needs is another lens expert or Essilor hater or Seiko Fan. Really. Heck, I say we petition for an EyeMed version of me to really spice it up a bit.

Can we get a full disclosure from the moderators here???

What do you want to know that I've not already shared that would help you as it relates to what I'm saying. Maybe it's just you perhaps just me, but I don't worry nor have to care about you and who you are or what your "full disclosure" is in order to make my statements that I do. Is that what you need? Why is it that you're so fixated on me vs what it is I'm saying in my replies?

Interesting......

My apologies for all the questions. Seriously, if you all don't want me here, or if the moderators wish me to leave, just say so. I've not meant any harm, have been more than courteous and apologized even on borderline comments or where others perhaps implied one might be needed. Just PM me and thy will be done and you can enjoy what you once had and perhaps maybe want to have and that is a board free from debates. Insert old-school yawn.