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Thread: PD responsibilities

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Well, outside of what the COS has stated they've used as guidelines in creating their eye exam frequency recommendiations, I'm not aware anyone has.
    My sentiments are completely anecdotal, but I suspect the same can be said for others that have staked out the opposite position.

    The emotional color with respect to driving/vision risks is something I share. But I'm not aware of *any* DMV in the country that performs vision screening more often than every six years, and none that are done onsite at the scene of an accident.

    I'd be interested in anyone can point to any studies that would enhance our understanding of health or harm risk in this regard.

    B
    Beats me....nobody cares....Ive also seen numerous nurses who cant see @near ....That really inspires confidence in their ability to administer drugs and read instructions....


    The sad reality is, that a large segment of the population doesnt care about their eye health or vision....unless they're in the process of going blind...


    Eye related matters are the ugly step child of the health industry...

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    This may be true. But the ones that survive will have figured out the skills necessary and added value quotient that sets them apart from the scenario outlined.

    BTW, online fulfillment or rental of DVDs did not kill B&M video. Streaming is what killed the beast.

    B
    Sure,but only a small portion of the eyeglass buying public will pay extra for the added value....I would be surprised if 10% of the B&M opticals survive under these circumstances....


    Most people just dont care about their vision quality enough to pay for whatever added value an optical shop survivor could provide....


    You are sadly mistaken if you think a lot of your "loyal" customers would stick with you ,if you charge double what an enhanced onliner could provide....W/O you providing a very noticeable improvement in perceived vision quality...

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    If the onliners can perfect remote measurement taking,most of the B&M opticals are going to die.....Just look at what happened to the B&M video rental business...
    Sorry, but this is the silliest post I've seen in years! Yea, the sky is falling. The net is the only cheap place to buy glasses? And cheap eyewear hasn't been around? For years? Eternity? ( At least in memory?) News Flash: There are places that sell glasses cheaper than you in a B&M location close by! Fear that! Look at how they are taking over the industry and putting everybody out of business! [ sarcasm mode: extreme]



    Clue; Cheap is a sub-market out of many. Cheap has been around forever. If that's your market, then panic.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    I would not go buy parts for my car at one place and then go to another place and ask the mechanic if I can borrow his tools for nothing, so I could install those parts nor would I ask the mechanic to install them for me for free .

    This is the same thing that you are supporting with free PD's and the use of the optician's or optometrist's time, tools, equipment and experience.

    That is wrong and I don't give a damn about how bad the media might make us look in front of schmuck customers and schmuck onliners that are unlicensed and can't get their own PD's without me.

    .
    Right on !.....I've never seen such a gutless industry......No other industry cares about what the tightwads,chiselers and cheapskates think,who want services for free so they can purchase elsewhere.....

    Last time I looked,all my anatomy is present......I'm charging for my services...and I dont care what the tightwads or media may think or say....


    I wont provide technical help for free,to help the online competition....

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    Sorry, but this is the silliest post I've seen in years! Yea, the sky is falling. The net is the only cheap place to buy glasses? And cheap eyewear hasn't been around? For years? Eternity? ( At least in memory?) News Flash: There are places that sell glasses cheaper than you in a B&M location close by! Fear that! Look at how they are taking over the industry and putting everybody out of business! [ sarcasm mode: extreme]



    Clue; Cheap is a sub-market out of many. Cheap has been around forever. If that's your market, then panic.
    Shlock B&M opticals dont sell comparable goods for half the price of what I have to charge.....The onliners can....

    Once they improve their measurement process,the dynamics will change in a big way....If people experience first hand that the online glasses work well,why would they buy the next pair from you for twice the price?


    The other consideration,is that their expectations will be lower ,since they will be paying so much less for the perceived comparable item...

    Im a realist...not a pessimist.....This industry is going to keep evolving.....and not in a good way...

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    ...This industry is going to keep evolving.....and not in a good way...
    And don't forget what Darwin said about survival of the fittest. If players in this field are unwilling or unable to adapt, bye bye.
    Every industry evolves over time. Name one that doesn't and is still around. While some of us seem angry I see this thread filled with smart, opinionated and tenacious fighters who will all find a common ground to endure and prosper. Happy SP Day to all.
    90% of everything is crap...except for crap, because crap is 100% crap

  7. #132
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    Dudes.

    The problem in the long run is not going to be even deregulation, which is the imminent problem.

    It will be offshore optical goods and services. Chinese (or Vietnamese or whatever) labor, exchange rates, lack of regulation of quality, etc. will make it difficult.

    In the age of globalism and the internet as a virtual marketplace, any business will have to face this stuff. This problem is way bigger than our field.

    Suggestions?

  8. #133
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    A lot depends on the rules of your state. In NY, a PD is not required on an Rx. It is not prohibited, but it is not required. But,... on the other hand, a patient is entitled to their health records and the information contained therein. So if any O in NY has the measurements in the records, we are required to hand it over.

    If I am asked for a PD, when I don't have one, I usually tell the patient it's the responsibility of the person that fits you with the eyewear. I never offer to measure one for a fee or for free.

    Also in NY, the state boards do not have rule making authority. We follow the law, and when there is an ambiguity, the State Health or Education Department will rule...sometimes with consultation with the state boards, but sometimes without.

    Although NY does not enforce it, it warns consumers on it's website that the standard of care in obtaining eyewear is that a professional must have a face to face contact with the patient to take measurements (not just the PD), and to perform the final dispensing. That being said, (don't you hate that phrase) any New Yorker can get online glasses. However, optical professionals licensed in NY risk censure if they sell eyewear without a face to face meeting with the patient.

  9. #134
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    I guess it would be interesting to know how they view the records of an independent Optician. Is it a health record, or the record of a sale?

  10. #135
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    Some people here think the PD (a body measurement) is the thing that will stop people from purchasing glasses online.

    So various schemes are thought out to keep this information from the customer... is it a health record, can we think of some legal excuse for not giving it, put a hefty price on measuring it, say something witty to thwart PD wanting people.

    No one has looked deeper at why people actually want to buy online. What is it:
    1. Price
    2. Convenience
    3. Frame selection
    4. Ease of trying many models
    5. ...


    Somebody interested in the good of the customers would look at this and say ...
    Hey these online guys must have found a need that we are not satisfying... lets find out and do a better job.

    Tom Harrington from the Marketplace asked:
    Are you protecting public interest or your own economic interest?
    And you know what? You are protecting your own economic interest!

    The public's interest have not once been the center of the discussions about onliners here. Not one has asked how to take some good ideas from the onliners and incorporate them in our practice.

    The only discussions have been how to stop people purchasing online through legal/licensing means and not giving PDs.

    Shlock B&M opticals dont sell comparable goods for half the price of what I have to charge.....The onliners can....

    Once they improve their measurement process,the dynamics will change in a big way.

    ...

    This industry is going to keep evolving.....and not in a good way...
    Hey comparable goods for half the price seems like a very good development. Ohh but i see what you mean... it would be bad for your business.

    Who cares about public interest ...

    One more thing, the PD has been included in the prescriptions here since forever and all is well. And we are quite heavily regulated:
    1. You can't sell anything in a optical store if you have not finished the optician school and got a diploma. Not even a frame.
    2. Until recently there were no optometrists, only ophthalmologists were allowed to write RXs.


    PS: Carry on with the scheming to not give PDs for some convoluted excuse of a reason. The more you do it the more i root for the onliners. And i am a B&M optician ... imagine how you make the public feel.
    Last edited by Nikolay Angelov; 03-19-2012 at 04:34 AM.

  11. #136
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    Blue Jumper You will be loosing consumers..........................

    I just can't see that you people can't see the facts. I have been following the trend for the last few years by posting the numbers of success of the on-line opticals on my website for you OptiBoarders.

    It does takes a lot of work and consumes time. So I can do only a few parts every week, but it is still a good indicator of what is happening. You can find it at http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm and scroll down to near the bottom where you can find the on-line opticals.

    Here come the punch.............The fully ESSILOR owned "Frames Direct" site ranks today 24,554 in global Alexa (in the USA 7,904) traffic ranking, which is the double of the best optical supplier ranking website "Luxottica" who's todays global ranking is 44,716.

    Frames Direct has had an increase in website traffic of the last

    7 day 0.008 +30%

    and

    3 month 0.0065 +11%

    and the same goes for most of the other more popular one-opticals. If you laugh off these facts as not important I can not help you. The more visitors you get on a website the more you sell. The average of visitors against sales go invariably up or down.

    Your on-line competition goes up on a yearly....monthly..........and daily basis, and you still bicker around PD's and other little things you can not and will not change because all you do is argue "who should do something about it", while the B&M opticals loose customers by the minute.

    You really have only 2 choices left at this stage:

    1) Do like Barry on Long Island, and Craig in Ft Meyers, work with wealthy people that like top quality and are willing to pay for it whatever the cost. You can also go the way Johns is handling it.

    or

    2) Have a 2 tier system and continue as you have before, + have and publicize a service charge price list, for work on outside purchased glasses.
    This should include service before outside purchase and service after outside purchase. Find you own price for your service charges.

    The consumer is not going to wait for you they follow the trend as website rankings actually indicate their numbers, which are facts and no phantasy world.

    It does look that this endlsess discussion is going nowhere as you people don't see the light.

  12. #137
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    Chris i appreciate all the work you do and the information you bring . I am sure many optiboarders feel the same way.

    It does look that this endlsess discussion is going nowhere as you people don't see the light.
    +1

    There are other options as well:

    3) Create a online-version in addition of your store. B&M + Online provides a powerful mix -> the best of both worlds.

    4) If price is the sole determining factor: find a way to match the onliners or be in the same ballpark. Many have said there are already B&M stores selling for the same as the onliners meaning it can be done.

    5) Go out of business. The way some people view their customers ... this option isn't all that bad for the public.
    Last edited by Nikolay Angelov; 03-19-2012 at 05:18 AM.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousCat View Post
    I guess it would be interesting to know how they view the records of an independent Optician. Is it a health record, or the record of a sale?
    I can tell you that in NYS, where opticianry is licensed and regulated by the state, that the opinion of the attorneys from the State Department of Education conisder the optician's record as part of a patient's health record.

  14. #139
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    Fighting your competitors through legislation seems to be IN these days.
    Doing all the work to be better then them is so old fashion.

    I wonder if the onliners (Essilor and all) decide to flex some legislative muscle as well where would you be...

    drk:
    offshore optical goods and services
    What percentage of optical goods and machinery in the USA is coming from outside?
    1. Foreign lenses: Zeiss, Essilor, Hoya, Chinese suppliers etc.
    2. Foreign machines: SatisLoh, Schneider, Nidek/Santinelli, TopCon, Essilor, Leybold Optics, Weco, Huvitz ...
    3. Foreign monomers: Mitsui Chemicals
    4. Foreign frames: Luxotica and many more.
    5. ...
    Last edited by Nikolay Angelov; 03-19-2012 at 05:40 AM.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    I can tell you that in NYS, where opticianry is licensed and regulated by the state, that the opinion of the attorneys from the State Department of Education conisder the optician's record as part of a patient's health record.
    Which is why when one of my clients calls to obtain their PD and Rx, as happened on Saturday, I cheerfully gave them both (binoc) to facilitate a family member ordering custom shooting glasses as a gift.

    With so many differing regulations from state to state on citation of health records, inclusion of PD, and Rx expiration dates, it seems obvious to me that the states that are freer in this regard (which outnumber those who are more restrictive) will be the ones cited by consumers and advocates as online optical grows as the standard against which a Federal law will be drafted...in the spirit of he FCLCA.

    A number of posters have intimated doom and gloom for B&M as a result on line and the free exchange of related optical info. But I think that if you believe that freeing the PD will doom you business...your business model must be very fragile indeed.

    B

  16. #141
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    Funny.........................7 hours later and no more posts ...............only dead silence

  17. #142
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    Well not complete silence

    Here is quote about FramesDirect by PhiTrace from another thread :
    Framesdirect gives me access to many frames that I did not have access to in the past, yes I have actually bought and resold frames from them, plus I use their database for frame color and sizing.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...l=1#post416405

    Hmm onliners do some things well ... and not just with the price it turns out.

    What other improvement ideas can we take from them.

  18. #143
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    I don't recall many people saying giving out pds would doom their businesses. A couple years ago I'd see one or two people per week walk in off the street asking me to measure their pd. I declined then on the grounds that it was the responsibility of the eyewear manufacturer to determine those (meaning more than one) measurements and that I did not wish to be a third party to the transaction. I still stand by that position. I can recall only one actual patient asking for the info in all this time and I gave it to him. It's been well over a year now since anyone has asked me for a pd.

    I do not believe a pd measurement should be included on rx for reasons stated earlier. Some things that should be included are best corrected visual acuity and near working distance, but I don't see anyone screaming for that.
    Last edited by Wes; 03-19-2012 at 01:28 PM.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Which is why when one of my clients calls to obtain their PD and Rx, as happened on Saturday, I cheerfully gave them both (binoc) to facilitate a family member ordering custom shooting glasses as a gift.B
    Probably anything that you write down in their record is part of the health record. That doesn't mean you have to write it down. We don't bother wasting our time taking PD's with a patient who hasn't picked out a pair of glasses. We take a lot of measurements in addition to the PD in order to customize the glasses for that patient, so PD alone doesn't do us or the pt any good anyway.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolay Angelov View Post
    Some people here think the PD (a body measurement) is the thing that will stop people from purchasing glasses online.

    So various schemes are thought out to keep this information from the customer... is it a health record, can we think of some legal excuse for not giving it, put a hefty price on measuring it, say something witty to thwart PD wanting people.

    No one has looked deeper at why people actually want to buy online. What is it:
    1. Price
    2. Convenience
    3. Frame selection
    4. Ease of trying many models
    5. ...


    Somebody interested in the good of the customers would look at this and say ...
    Hey these online guys must have found a need that we are not satisfying... lets find out and do a better job.

    Tom Harrington from the Marketplace asked:


    And you know what? You are protecting your own economic interest!

    The public's interest have not once been the center of the discussions about onliners here. Not one has asked how to take some good ideas from the onliners and incorporate them in our practice.

    The only discussions have been how to stop people purchasing online through legal/licensing means and not giving PDs.



    Hey comparable goods for half the price seems like a very good development. Ohh but i see what you mean... it would be bad for your business.

    Who cares about public interest ...

    One more thing, the PD has been included in the prescriptions here since forever and all is well. And we are quite heavily regulated:
    1. You can't sell anything in a optical store if you have not finished the optician school and got a diploma. Not even a frame.
    2. Until recently there were no optometrists, only ophthalmologists were allowed to write RXs.


    PS: Carry on with the scheming to not give PDs for some convoluted excuse of a reason. The more you do it the more i root for the onliners. And i am a B&M optician ... imagine how you make the public feel.
    I almost dont know where to begin......You must be a closet onliner.....

    OF course Im concerned about my economic well being......Why do you think Im working?......

    Onliners arent going to go away.....But it's not my role to help their business.....

    Since the standard of care here is that other than the actual rx, measurements related to the fabrication of eyewear is the responsibility of the optician, Im not going to release the pd ,unless Im paid to do so.....


    Im also not going to do any troubleshooting, verification or frame adjustments for free.....Of online purchases...These services are priced into our goods....


    Low cost is the reason for the majority of online purchases.........


    High overhead costs are why my prices are higher than onliners......People cant have it both ways,with the same cost of goods as online,along with professional service and the convenience of a B&M location.....


    Im not prepared to operate an optical as a loss leader as a service to customers......




    So,perhaps you can explain how it is in the public's interest to be their own optician,and order direct from the lab....I never knew that any amateur could spec out eyewear properly.....

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    Some things that should be included are best corrected visual acuity and near working distance
    Yup it's a convenience to have those. We made them mandatory for our RXs and it saves a lot of headaches (ordering PALs with ADD power for 70 cm "refracted for PC" distance isn't fun ).

    4554lake:
    Low cost is the reason for the majority of online purchases.........
    I was under the impression that discounters offered comparable to online vendors prices.

    I could be misinformed, but if true this would mean that there is more to people buying online then price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolay Angelov View Post
    Yup it's a convenience to have those. We made them mandatory for our RXs and it saves a lot of headaches (ordering PALs with ADD power for 70 cm "refracted for PC" distance isn't fun ).

    4554lake:


    I was under the impression that discounters offered comparable to online vendors prices.

    I could be misinformed, but if true this would mean that there is more to people buying online then price.
    Online vendors undercut any B&M location by a huge margin.....They have the economy of scale when purchasing goods.......plus low overhead costs...no storefront....low labour costs ...... no before/after sales service,other than providing the glasses....



    Its impossible to compete price wise with these outfits....unless you want to subsidize the costs yourself....


    It is about the price......

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    Actually ,Barry's comments have made me change my mind......Let the whole eyeglass industry be deregulated.,...

    This way people can save money.....I dont care who sells/dispenses eyeglasses....
    I agree his points are valid even though they are hard to hear. When patients bring up online eyewear we talk honestly and most the time they stay. If they don't, it's usually because these online patients were looking for cheaper anyway so those 2 for $69.00 joints down the road are getting their business. Every so often one of these patients get's tired of the rat race and parks their business with me and they stay loyal.

    I don't want to compete with the bottom of the barrel so if they want to go there fine.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    I just can't see that you people can't see the facts. I have been following the trend for the last few years by posting the numbers of success of the on-line opticals on my website for you OptiBoarders.

    It does takes a lot of work and consumes time. So I can do only a few parts every week, but it is still a good indicator of what is happening. You can find it at http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm and scroll down to near the bottom where you can find the on-line opticals.

    Here come the punch.............The fully ESSILOR owned "Frames Direct" site ranks today 24,554 in global Alexa (in the USA 7,904) traffic ranking, which is the double of the best optical supplier ranking website "Luxottica" who's todays global ranking is 44,716.

    Frames Direct has had an increase in website traffic of the last

    7 day 0.008 +30%

    and

    3 month 0.0065 +11%

    and the same goes for most of the other more popular one-opticals. If you laugh off these facts as not important I can not help you. The more visitors you get on a website the more you sell. The average of visitors against sales go invariably up or down.

    Your on-line competition goes up on a yearly....monthly..........and daily basis, and you still bicker around PD's and other little things you can not and will not change because all you do is argue "who should do something about it", while the B&M opticals loose customers by the minute.

    You really have only 2 choices left at this stage:

    1) Do like Barry on Long Island, and Craig in Ft Meyers, work with wealthy people that like top quality and are willing to pay for it whatever the cost. You can also go the way Johns is handling it.

    or

    2) Have a 2 tier system and continue as you have before, + have and publicize a service charge price list, for work on outside purchased glasses.
    This should include service before outside purchase and service after outside purchase. Find you own price for your service charges.

    The consumer is not going to wait for you they follow the trend as website rankings actually indicate their numbers, which are facts and no phantasy world.

    It does look that this endlsess discussion is going nowhere as you people don't see the light.
    Your numbers ignore the fact that theyir stock prices are steady or dropping while they are selling more units and wasting more money on web site resources.

  25. #150
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    let's look at a fictious example:

    B&M eyewear, with branded designer frame=$600.
    Frames Direct for same=$300.00
    Difference=$300.00
    Useful/average life of primary pair:2-2.7 yrs,
    1/2 Difference averaged over 1 year:$12.50 per month, or approx $3.00 per week.
    ECP service epack, i.e., adjustments, repairs, plus parts $1.50/wk
    Not too much difference now, eh at about $6/mo?

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