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Thread: PD responsibilities

  1. #101
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Let's see, Barry. Three levels:
    1. Vision correcting devices that are regulated to be deemed safe and effective by professionals and regulators (i.e.: regulated market)
    2. Vision correcting devices that are barely regulated to be deemed barely acceptable by professionals and regulators
    3. Vision correcting devices that are completely unregulated, and the acceptability is up to the end user (i.e.: completely free market.)

    We all agree that level one exists, and level three exists, and always did on the black market and in the third world.

    You're saying we need level two, because we can cut out some expense by bare-bone-sing the professional input, regulation and oversight, and that this will save consumers money, and that it's a good thing. Right?

    You're saying that practicing vision care and manufacture and supply of vision correcting devices is over-regulated and you think we need freer markets. Right?

    Does this apply to Pharmacy? Surgery? Cosmetology? Engineering? Law? Do you care to draw a distinction between your profession and these others?

  2. #102
    Ophthalmic Optician
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    Then you agree, there's no need to put a PD on an RX.
    ...

    No...what I think he is trying to say is that there's no need for an optician.
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  3. #103
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    PD is a body measurement. Like how tall one is.

    It's simply the distance between the pupils.
    What does responsibility got to do with it!?

    A doctor measures how tall you are (5 feet).

    Later you go to a tailor and tell him "i am 5 feet tall make me a suit" ... and the suit does not fit well.

    Is the doc. responsible for anything?
    He told you how tall you are, and everyone can confirm it is true.

    But to make you a suit, a lot more measurements are necessary ... which is your tailor's job and thus his responsibility.
    Last edited by Nikolay Angelov; 03-16-2012 at 05:30 PM.

  4. #104
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Incomplete and over-simplified, Nicolay, but I know what you're getting at.

    Distance p.d. is a body measurement, indeed (that increases for awhile, like height).

    But specifying where optical centers are to be placed depends on the application.

  5. #105
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    ...

    No...what I think he is trying to say is that there's no need for an optician.
    It is odd when a professional who has some audience within his profession advocates for retrogressive health care for U.S. citizens.

    I don't get it. Usually professionals advocate for protection, not deregulation.

    I think some people get wrapped up in "evolution" of an industry, change in technology, etc. and assume that all change is somehow good. Or, if it can be done, it should be done. We have many tangible examples of how that's not true.

    In the real world, you'll see that the only people pushing for deregulation are the crony capitalists in Utah and British Columbia; that is, they buy votes of a corrupt body of public officials in order to bring instant gratification in "job creation" or local income taxes, or blatant insider trading when a health minister is on the board of directors of a company in the involved industry. They're the worst of what's going on in this world: profiteering at the expense of public health.

    I'd hate to be on their side of this issue.

  6. #106
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    We would allow consumers choice that Ive not seen is necessarily worse than licensed b&m's deliver now.
    Standards r standards. No online means you're friend down the street doin' schlock can't either.
    B

  7. #107
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Well, there's no "we" here. It's up to state legislatures. You'd have to get some money together and lobby. Don't see it happening from opticians, ODs or MDs.

    I only see it happening by Essilor, Luxottica, VSP, Frames Direct, Walmart/1-800, Coastal, etc. A motley crew with NO interest in public health whatsoever.

  8. #108
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    This is a "dead-end" conversation. No one's mind is being changed and for this reason, online opticals and un-trained clerks will continue to infect our professionns. We may disagree about who gets the "honor" of providing PD's or other measurements, on charging or not charging for the service, but so long as we enable these providers to exist, even flourish, we doom our respective professions to dial-spinning and ruler-reading. At some point, we (and our professional organizations) need to draw a line in the sand and say "no more". It's time to tell patients that we value their vision and visual health too much to trust them to the lowest bidder. DIY is great on H&G-TV, unless you want the best and then it's time for Candace and the (expensive and top-drawer Divine Design team. If your patients want DIY, then let them, just don't help them.

  9. #109
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Well, there's no "we" here. It's up to state legislatures. You'd have to get some money together and lobby. Don't see it happening from opticians, ODs or MDs.

    I only see it happening by Essilor, Luxottica, VSP, Frames Direct, Walmart/1-800, Coastal, etc. A motley crew with NO interest in public health whatsoever.
    Those retail giants have way more money to spend than we do, so I think it would be smarter to stop them at the source. Our professional organizations are "beholding" to many of them for money, speakers, trips, and innumerable "freebies". Better to learn to stand on our own than to be no more than the ventriloquist's dummy.

  10. #110
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Two very excellent posts.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousCat View Post
    No one's mind is being changed .

    Actually ,Barry's comments have made me change my mind......Let the whole eyeglass industry be deregulated.,...

    This way people can save money.....I dont care who sells/dispenses eyeglasses....

  12. #112
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    Actually ,Barry's comments have made me change my mind......Let the whole eyeglass industry be deregulated.,...

    This way people can save money.....I dont care who sells/dispenses eyeglasses....
    REALLY?
    Barry has been so far off base on this it's ridiculous. Nearly every educated poster who has weighed in on this has opposed Barry. Good luck. I hope you're the best of the best, because if you're not, and he gets his way, you'll be unemployed before too long.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  13. #113
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Not only that, but you should probably stay off of the road that these people who you have deemed no longer need professional vision service drive on, otherwise you may not be posting for very long.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  14. #114
    Master OptiBoarder RIMLESS's Avatar
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    Hello everyone. Please see the forest for the trees. You can spend the next decade arguing the PD issue for what? We exist in a capitalistic society where rules, laws and ethics are warped, bent and broken every place you look. We all have something that the online retailers don't, and never will. The human element. Most patients do want to try on and actually touch what they are going to be wearing for the next two years or so. For the most part they also do appreciate some professional guidance along the way. If you're not providing that to them then good luck trying to compete with the cloud based on price points alone. I hope the web takes all my miserable patients...please, the ones that never listen to what I say...The ones who only order 1 box of Cl every other leap year...The ones who only come back every six years or so when their eyes are all jacked up... I say Gay Ga Zinta Hate!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by RIMLESS; 03-17-2012 at 03:38 PM.
    90% of everything is crap...except for crap, because crap is 100% crap

  15. #115
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    Actually ,Barry's comments have made me change my mind......Let the whole eyeglass industry be deregulated.,...

    This way people can save money.....I dont care who sells/dispenses eyeglasses....
    I'm not saying that. And I'm not trying to twist words either.

    I'm not for unregulated eyewear. I'm for *intelligent* regulation, albeit with real-world risk-assessment, rather than "the sky is falling" if this happens.

    Too much **** about the PD, IMHO. Wes and others are right: Excellent eyewear is much more than just PD.

    It's funny that many look fondly back on the old, "high-skill/Guild" days as the epitiome of dispensing craft and skill.

    Yet Bino PDs for bifocals and SV were the norm. Go figure.

    B

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    REALLY?
    Barry has been so far off base on this it's ridiculous. Nearly every educated poster who has weighed in on this has opposed Barry. Good luck. I hope you're the best of the best, because if you're not, and he gets his way, you'll be unemployed before too long.
    Im not worried..I'm an OD...I'll just charge more for rechecks ....lol

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    Not only that, but you should probably stay off of the road that these people who you have deemed no longer need professional vision service drive on, otherwise you may not be posting for very long.
    You would already stay off the road ,if you saw as many people as I do, who cant see ,either due to pathology or from refusing to wear an rx......who drive anyway...

  18. #118
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    Im not worried..I'm an OD...I'll just charge more for rechecks ....lol
    Sooooo....deregulate everyone but YOU? Why not just kick it back to the 19th century and leave it all to the MD's?

  19. #119
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    REALLY?
    Barry has been so far off base on this it's ridiculous. Nearly every educated poster who has weighed in on this has opposed Barry. Good luck. I hope you're the best of the best, because if you're not, and he gets his way, you'll be unemployed before too long.
    Wes:

    I'm thinking that you and others may not understand my position on this. I've tried to make my points as clear as I can. I understand that people won't agree with me on this...but I love to hear everyone's opinion.
    I won't repeat anything here. Perhaps this subject is closed, as Curious Cat has stated.
    Hope everyone thinks. That's always been my mission. Get out of your comfort zone, and address the challenges facing us. Even if what I've forcasted does not come to pass, I believe the role playing and point/counterpoint is in itself educational and instructive. I do not think of anyone opinion in this thread as stupid or the like. I respect you all. But I hope you won't mind me coming out of my corner and debating another side in these issues.
    B

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post

    I'm not for unregulated eyewear. I'm for *intelligent* regulation, albeit with real-world risk-assessment, rather than "the sky is falling" if this happens.




    B


    So,who will do the intelligent regulation and real world risk assessment?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Excellent eyewear is much more than just PD.





    B
    We know that....the public doesnt....They dont even understand the concept of the three O's...

  22. #122
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    So,who will do the intelligent regulation and real world risk assessment?
    Well, outside of what the COS has stated they've used as guidelines in creating their eye exam frequency recommendiations, I'm not aware anyone has.
    My sentiments are completely anecdotal, but I suspect the same can be said for others that have staked out the opposite position.

    The emotional color with respect to driving/vision risks is something I share. But I'm not aware of *any* DMV in the country that performs vision screening more often than every six years, and none that are done onsite at the scene of an accident.

    I'd be interested in anyone can point to any studies that would enhance our understanding of health or harm risk in this regard.

    B

  23. #123
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    If the onliners can perfect remote measurement taking,most of the B&M opticals are going to die.....Just look at what happened to the B&M video rental business...

  24. #124
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    removing post , discussion of solutions only allowed on Canadian page
    Last edited by idispense; 03-21-2012 at 08:00 AM.

  25. #125
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4554lake View Post
    If the onliners can perfect remote measurement taking,most of the B&M opticals are going to die.....Just look at what happened to the B&M video rental business...
    This may be true. But the ones that survive will have figured out the skills necessary and added value quotient that sets them apart from the scenario outlined.

    BTW, online fulfillment or rental of DVDs did not kill B&M video. Streaming is what killed the beast.

    B

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