Originally Posted by Barry Santini
I don't know about that Barry! I have gone on a couple of interviews lately and they all like my experience and how much I have accomplished then it comes down to that loaded question, how much are you seeking? I tell them with my experience and work accomplishments I'm seeking $23 per hour. Everyone has almost fallen off there seats when I mention this and they say we will be touch which means forget it we will settle for a cheap newbie!
I have heard this over, and over, and over again. I have experienced it first hand, as have others in my family and circle of friends.
This is part of the reason why I have a hard time suggesting someone to pursue this occupation. I have a harder time suggesting that they spend the dough to get an education in this field. I am all for getting educated, but I think the return on investment is just not there in this field.
I see and respect both sides of the education argument. I struggle with my above feelings, but I have yet to be convinced otherwise.
PS. This thread must be setting some kind of record! We have made it seven pages without it getting locked, without too much bickering and name calling, and a generally good flow. The thread has not gone the way that I had hoped, but I am happy that we are at least civil...so far. Thanks to all for the open discussion.
One thing the education-first camp is missing is that healthcare practitioners are not paid for their education or even their competence. They are paid for their license.
What do you know about your dentist? What school did they attend? What were their grades in dental school? What was their rank in the graduating class? Top 10? Bottom 10? What other degrees do they have besides the required ones?
None of this matters as much as the basic question: Do they have a license to practice dentistry? EVEN THAT QUESTION WOULD BE IRRELEVANT IF A LICENSE WAS NOT REQUIRED !!
1. Regulate - for control.
2. Enforce - Universal enforcement to prevent illegal (internet) dispensing.
3. Educate - Only with step 1 and 2 will education matter.
Last edited by LandLord; 09-20-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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Do you learn to drive and then get a license, or get a license and then learn to drive? Opticians can only do more when education levels are increased.
A point that has been completely ignored in this thread, but has been mentioned here before: Apparently, (at least in New York was it? Although we can extrapolate for the rest of the US no doubt.) the general public ALREADY THINKS we all have some form of degree or specific training. And yet they still beat many opticians up over cost of services or goods, and more than a few have been lost to the dark and putrid bowels of the inter-web. At the end of the day, unless the PUBLIC sees the value in what a b&m "live" dispenser offers, they won't pay for it. If the public doesn't pay more, the Doctors/chains/big box/indies won't (actually they CAN'T) either.
You can't magically make two pennies appear if only one is given to you in the first place. No amount of education, licensure, certification etc. etc. is likely to change the public's mind enough to willingly get them to pay several times more for what they perceive to be no different from one "store" to the next. You'll have the odd one or two, but not the vast overwhelming majority of patients.
Not true. The licensure requirements for say Kansas are FRIGHTENINGLY LOWER than they are for Utah or Colorado for example. But hey - it's a license! Who cares if the grossly lower standard was followed or not, it's still a magical license. And once you get that KS license, many states (perhaps most?) will 'let you in' to drive in their state with their license - using only the fact that you have one as credential enough. See the glaring error in letting states do it one by one here? I'm sure it's no different in the plumbing and cosmetology sectors.
Diopterman and Jedi; You have to understand that a lot of your salary is based on where you live + supply and demand. I'm in an unlicensed state and know quite a few opticians that make a good 50% more, to double your (Jedi) 23 P.H. requirement. Sometimes you need to consider relocation...
Also consider this: For the most part, optometry can't pay you what you want. I know plenty of OD's only pulling down around 120k. Do you think they can afford a 70k optician? As Jesse James said when asked why he robbed banks, " It's where the money is". MD's have far more income from other sources than their dispensaries. They need you more than an OD need you because they have little to no training in opticianry, unlike OD's who can do your job (in many cases better).
* The above is no knock on my OD friends, it's just an economic fact.
Are there cheapskate MD's too? Sure, cheapskates are in every field there is (including opticianry). But I can tell you for a fact, I make more because of my training, knowledge and experience. In fact where I work now, I was sought for this position, I didn't knock on the door for it. And of course there are limited positions that pay a good salary, but whom do you think will get these plumb jobs, the apprentice with no documentation of accomplishments or the person that does?
Lastly, how many jobs pay a collage grad's salary with absolutely no schooling? My daughter works as a school teacher here in Texas and makes about 45k. I know a lot of opticians here making that.
I do believe Warren and others that say we need to move to more education. As optometry moves more into the medical end there will be a need for skilled ancillary personnel.
Here's another test. Let's you and I apply for the same optician job at the same time. Then let's see who gets hired and who is paid more. I guarantee it won't be based on who has a PhD and who doesn't.
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You accidentally stabbed yourself in the finger with a screwdriver. It is in so deep, you are in need of emergency surgery. It just so happens there are 2 surgeons buying glasses in your office. The first one is known to you. He has been performing surgery for 20 years successfully. Everyone in town knows him and likes him. You read on the front page of the Daily News that his license was suspended because he fell in love with one of his patients and married her last week. He has his complete surgical bag with him and offers to fix your problem immediately and perfectly for $100.
The other surgeon, much younger, turns to you and says
"Hi, I just got my license last week. I failed my exam 3 times and then, after pleading discrimination, my lawyer forced the college to give me my license. I will do your surgery for $200."
Which would you choose? The licensed practitioner or the competent one?
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I m in western NY where if I went to a big box think Wally world I can get 25 or 26. But I would rather work in a more hospitalcal environment.
I threw in some grammatical errors for our earlier poster! Lol
$23.00 an HOUR! That little???!!!
I pay my recep $20+/hr now??!!
REEEDICULOUS!
B
'
This is getting ridiculous. I have presented my case, and you largely reject it, but at least had the pleaseure pf presenting it, and believe me, I do want the best for Opticians. I just disagree with you on the path. Best of luck to all the posters here on Optiboard. I have enjoyed my debates with you over the years, and I hope I have at least made folks think a bit about education. It is unfortunate that some can only see beyind their own front door. Remember an old saying, the only thing more expensive that education is ignorance.
We have to have something to do around here!
Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
It maybe but you can only get what the market will bare. You have to also remember the local the closer you are to NY city the more you have to make just to keep even with what we make up north.
I disagree totally. The public does not view us with licenses but glorified clerks with a stick. If they come upon an optician that knows what he is doing, knows his product, gives great customer service and can speak intelligently about his craft then you have a great optician. Now if he or she is licensed he or she is now worth even more because they have shown they are not a detriment to society but a plus!
Last edited by jediron1; 09-20-2011 at 08:11 PM.
I would like to point out one of the reasons that I think that Opticianry is dead;
APATHY!!
This thread has had almost 3925 views, only 165 responses, and maybe 12 members responding!
Where is everybody else? Do you not have an opinion? Do you not have a feeling on this subject? Do you give a damn one way or another?
It is a shame really. This is typical of the onlookers who come to this board that never participate, never speak up, never give an opinion, never give a DAMN! They just take, and take, and take.
Why not give back? Respond? Speak up? Give an opinion? PARTICIPATE for cripes sake..........this is a DISCUSSION forum!
Don't sweat it though. I get it. It is the very reason that Opticianry is DEAD. Your pathetic APATHY!
Passion! You got................................... wait for it.......................................................... ...... GUSTO!
Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
Diopterman et al,
I am one of those on lookers. I am not apathetic. I'm not unwilling to voice my concerns and opinion. I haven't posted because I already knew where this was going. The discussion was going to turn to education. The posters would separate themselves into one of two camps. They would either be for or against. Dr. McDonald would head up the education camp, and someone else would argue that they were being insulted and felt that their skill set was being held as cheap. (for those who don't understand the comment of "held as cheap" go read Shakespeare, Henry V, 'St. Crispian's Day speech') In the end Uilleann would burst on the scene and make remakes that you are all wrong, that you missed the point entirely, and then never give his own course of action on what needs to happen next. Oh, wait, I believe it was Uli who commented that there needs to be National Licensure. Although, if he were to spend some time with a US Congressman he would realize this is a state issue. I apologize in advance Brian as I have singled you out, you were not alone in this argument, you were simply the first I came across in the thread.
For the record, I am pro-education. Going so far as being one of the founding individuals of an organization many have just recently learned of, The Society to Advance Opticianry. I believe Opticianry should require advance certification in optics, the NCLE, and at minimum a two year degree (understand here that I personally do not meet these same requirements.). I feel that the future of opticianry can only be secured through education. Will I go and get a BA or BS? Probably not, I am already a business owner and as such have achieved my personal goals. Will I foster education and certification in my employees? Absolutely. I have already committed to assisting in the training and certification of two local opticians and feel proud to do so.
Not all of us will meet the new propossed requirements for entering opticians. This is alright, we don't have to. What we do need to do is stop hobbling the future of opticianry by our own fear and insecurities. We should instead instill the need for greater education and the advancement of opticianry through your words and mentorship. If you choose to obtain the new Ophthalmic Optican designation, do so with pride and vigor! Mention this new symbol of advanced opticianry and require the comes rate pay you so richly deserve. There are willing employers out there who see value in education and benchmarked ability. Seek these people out! In my own office I look forward to the day when I am in a position to offer a position to someone of this caliber.
Is Opticianry Dead? No! Opticianry is simply at a crossroads. For some, their concept of opticianry is fading. For others, their concept of opticianry is only now being born into the light.
The real questions are;
"Is your concept of the Modern Optician viable in todays day and age? Is the optician of tomorrow a simple order taker and temple bender or are they something more? What happens if we all get out of the way and allow the next generation of optician, the eager and hungry for knowledge generation thrive? What will you do to foster this new optician? What will you do to instill a sense of fearless thirst of knowledge and understanding? What will you do to launch the next great Entrepreneurial Optician, the next great Scientific Optician, the nest great Inventor Optician? What will you do? What will YOU DO?"
KC
Business Owner, Entrepreneur, Mentor, Thinker. Now, poster on this already tired thread.
- Optician
- Frame Maker/Designer
- Teacher of the art of crafting handmade eyewear.
One man's wage rise...................................
One man's wage rise is another man's price increase.
Harold Wilson
Great response Kevin.
For those that think national licensure is possible, what are you doing to achieve it? Or are you just sitting on the sidelines, waiting for someone else to make it happen?
I had never been anything more than a dues paying member in any of the organizations until a group of us met in Atlanta a little over a year ago and began work on the SAO. I didn't see what the other organizations were doing to advance our profession. This group got me excited enough to get involved.
Even if you don't share our vision, do something to advance opticianry or at least your own skill level. If you're not ABO and NCLE certified, study for and take the exams. If you are, study for and take the advanced exams. You might be surprised to learn that you don't know everything you need to know to be the best optician you can be.
Do something to set yourself apart. Don't just sit on the sidelines and whine.
The onlythingy about the this SAC that I dont understand is the requirement for the NCLE.
As far as I can tell, mastering contacts has really less to do with eyeglasses than some would think. I believe this requirement sprang from cls being the domain of the levels above our place in the optical food chain, and thereby acquiring some enhanced associated status.
Although I have a NYS CL license, I dont have an NCLE, so unless I find time to do so.....
B
For those of you that are complaining about wages; May I offer this as food for thought?
I am based in the United Kingdom. Now, bearing in mind the current exchange rate (approx $1.5 to every £1), here are some average wages for different positions in the UK.
OO (Opthalmic Optician/Optometrist) - £50-55,000 ($75,000 approx)
Dispensing Optician - £20,000 ($30,000)
Optical Advisor - £13,000 ($19,500)
Receptionist - £7500 ($11,250)
Lab Technician - £13,000 ($19,500)
I myself, as the manager of a small independent, am only getting £19,000. That's around $28,500.
For the skill level that we require in optics, it's very hard to actually retain people for those sorts of average salaries. Especially considering that some of the larger clothes stores are offering very similar wages for a job where people don't really have to learn anything?
Tom
Thank you for that perspective Tom!
It is pretty interesting to see the wages that others are getting (or not getting as the case seems to be)!
So would you say that Opticianry is dead?
Gmc said:
Even if you don't share our vision, do something to advance opticianry or at least your own skill level. If you're not ABO and NCLE certified, study for and take the exams. If you are, study for and take the advanced exams. You might be surprised to learn that you don't know everything you need to know to be the best optician you can be.
Do something to set yourself apart. Don't just sit on the sidelines and whine.[/QUOTE]
I won't slap my own back but I have done all of the above and what did it get nothing. In fact I had one boss tell me " why did you go get your C.O.A.? I said to further my education and be a better optician in the office. He said I need another tech! " as I said before the Boxes and the Empire controls more of this than you think. I won't reinterate what I said before because some of you just don't get it and until you come around to see what's the sense of pounding your head against the wall of opticianry. Why do think places like The Big Boxes and the Empire hire mostly unlicensed people?
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