People get it.Originally Posted by gatorbait
Master mechanic=better mechanic.
Master plumber=better plumber.
Master optician=you figure it out.
Its worth it. And if it became more difficult to achieve, then it became even more worth it.
instant credibility. Good advertising and pr. As long as you can back it up.
Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
A question for Warren. In your opinion, is a college-educated Optician better prepared for the Masters/AC Exam than an apprentice-trained one?
Don't worry, I put on my helmet.
Some folks value education, some don't. It is unfortunate. Will a college-educated Optician be better prepared.......of course. Current "apprenticees" are not trained at all, according to my research. It is merely cheap labor. Apprentices do not fare nearly as well on state boards, etc. For the life of me, I cannot se how anyone can undermine the need to Opticians to get an education.
Last edited by wmcdonald; 09-14-2011 at 10:45 AM.
...and...cue soapbox...
Dr. Mcdonald, you and I have spoke before and I do agree with you on some of this. However in my case(as I am an example of an apprentice), I consider myself just as knowledgeable as many graduates in my field. Granted I took it upon myself to learn from some people such as yourself and Jerry Himes but no degree(which I would like to achieve). I have currently had 3 phone calls in the past month regarding the CRT Rx and how they couldn't figure it out for a few patients at big box stores. And not to be rude but my first question was are you a licensed optician and the response was always yes.
We are on the same page of higher education for Opticians. I will never disagree with that but once again to say I am not as prepared as the graduate... I don't know if I agree. I think a lot of it has to do with the person, Are they really an optician or an optical order taker( aka salesman), as well as the person training the optician. Shame on the boss if they don't try to educate these folks in the field though.
Ok here is my two cents, college is fine, but that makes you one kind of optician, I prefer the Augenoptiker model used in Realschule in Germany. years as an apprentice, starting with the mechanical fundamentals, optical scutwork, etc. THEN training to service patients. The problem in this country with that is we ridicule and cheapen the tradesman, we think nothing of hiring a non union carpenter, electrician, etc. ( except for MD's, they have the strongest union in the world, you try to scab as a doctor and you go to jail.) College is fine for finances, research etc. but I have yet to see someone just trained in a college setting able to unsolder a frame and put it back together. It is a TRADE, people, like I said, in this country that's a bad word, blue collar jobs are considered menial. we need to have a concerted effort to stop things like untrained people being able to dispense and fit eyeglasses, to keep on line producers from making glasses without verifying the Rx. there is the future. Opticianry used to be an honorable trade that you used to be able to earn a good living and raise a family on, now it has been cheapened to the point where having it as the only household income is rare. ( When I was laid off from an Essilor partner lab and looking for a job as a dispenser, I was laughed at for wanting insurance and a wage more than 10 $ an hour by one OD's office.)
I was looking for that!...and...cue soapbox...
I am currently apprenticing a very bright young lady. She is already a more competent dispenser than most. Yet, she has quite a lot to learn. I feel, and have discussed with her, that no matter how good I may be, odds are I'll miss some things. Either they don't come up, or there's not enough time in the day, or maybe I just don't know it. I have suggested NAIT for her, as it is now approved in SC, and it is one of the more affordable options. Why? Because I am aware that a regimented, vetted program will not miss such things. Also, it is the case that rarely can instructors instruct someone in a manner that the person can attain the instructor's own level. Hence the reason high school teachers have BS/BA level degrees, Jr. College/Associates level schools have MS/MA degrees, and so on. I also believe this is the reason that the apprenticing optician model is failing us. Each succeeding optician learns less than the previous.
All things being equal, I believe that a formal optical sciences course will provide a better education than an apprenticeship will.
Gatorbait, has it occurred to you that guys like you, Brian, HarryC, GMC, and others who were apprenticed are the exceptions to the rule? Sure, you're at or beyond the level of the average AAS graduate, but you are not average. I dare say a very large majority of apprentices would've been better prepared had they had formal instruction. Let's make sure we aren't comparing apples to oranges.
Last edited by Wes; 09-14-2011 at 12:08 PM.
Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
We are not suggesting anyone currently practicing go back to school. We want to see those in the future better prepared than those currently in the field. How can anyone not support that? As to preparation, I am sure a few folks have been well trained through some structured program somewhere, but they are the exception, not the rule. We are judged by our lowest common denominator. We are not in Germany, and are judged against other professions here, and we do not stack up, unfortunately. If this is considered me on a soap box, then fine. I am passionate about improving this field, and apprenticeship simply does not cut it any longer. Rather than spouting opinions based on your experience, do a little research and you will get a clearer picture.
Last edited by wmcdonald; 09-15-2011 at 11:31 AM.
I agree. But I just went for an interview with a good firm who says they take education and professionalism go hand in hand. I agreed went through the interview and then they asked that loaded question what are you seeking for a wage? I went on an explained my qualifications, my COA, New York Licensed optician and ABO certified. I have been a manager, started two OMD stores and buyer. So I said with my credititals I'm seeking x amoun
t. It was between 20 and 30, I'll let you guess where in the middle I asked for. And they looked and said OH! Needless to say they don't want the most educated professionals. My
point being as I said before most places will not and are not paying for good opticians with experience at least not in Western NY.
Nice rant but most Big Boxes don't care whether your a master optician or someone they just hired off the street. The Evil Empire is the same. As long as they can keep a doc on premise they can get away with anything.
It seems that we keep asking the question and, disliking the answers, work hard to maintain the status quo.
http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...pticianry-dead
I think just like every medical profession, there should be formal training. I am all for classroom education, please don't take me the wrong way. I was military police and had to have formal training to drive my police vehicle, or carry my fire arm. I actually never have thought of myself as the exception but instead assumed(keyword) that the level of knowledge is standard.
I don't mean to spout my opinion as a majority of my communication with other opticians stems from optiboard itself. Which is why it was my assumption and realization that I do still have a lot to learn myself.
Not in states that require separate entrances.
Wow, that thread was like a walk down memory lane; back when I was a lurker and not a poster. MarcE, Keith Benjamin, Fezz, Framebender, Orangezero, Snowmonster...
I didn't even apprentice! I received my Florida license by drawing a paycheck in an unlicensed state for 5 years, passing the basic ABO and NCLE exams and taking the Florida board exam.
I am an advocate for formal education as a basis for entry as an optician. I recognized that my knowledge and skill level weren't what they should be so I sought to do something about it, earning advanced certifications.
That's still not enough! I recognize that my knowledge and skills can be improved, particularly if I'm to be a spokesperson for education in opticianry. I'm currently weighing options for formal education. Either the NAIT program or a two year degree in optics. And I'm 51 years old.
I currently am working with an apprentice. Is there any way I can teach him everything he would learn in a formal opticianry program? Not a chance. You additionally need on the job experience to put it all together, but an apprentice in today's environment cannot have the foundation of someone with a formal education.
Jederon:
You may not have noticed but mechanics and master mechanics have been replaced by AFC certified technicians and parts changers. There are only a rare few mechanics now much the same as there are only a rare few Opticians now, which have been mostly replaced by people "in sales."
Chip
Yes
Properly medicated for your protection.
No. On life support maybe, but not dead. Yet.
Can we stop bickering about it and do something? Can we come together and preserve our profession? Who will help?
Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
Forgive me but I don't see the bickering. The other question is and if you had read all the posts you should have understood was to get going to preserve our profession you must root out the problem that is behind the hindrance of our profession and that in my humble opinion is The Big Boxes and the Empire. I have seen and heard that they don't want licensing and in states that do they put up with it until the day they can completely root it out entirely. In NY they almost got that when they dumb down the New York state exam because they said it was to hard and all your large stores and boxes were on board with it. Now you have the New York Mickey Mouse exam it's ridiculous what they did.
I agree with you jediron1......it seems attempts in a lot of jurisdictions, by opticians, to better themselves are often blocked by other forces within the industry.
The real enemy is us...our lack of unity, our unwillingness to raise the bar on education, our constant one-upmanship, our lack of respect for other ECPs, our apathy and our penchant for sitting on the sidelines and whining.
Forgive me but I don't see the bickering. The other question is and if you had read all the posts you should have understood was to get going to preserve our profession you must root out the problem that is behind the hindrance of our profession and that in my humble opinion is The Big Boxes and the Empire. I have seen and heard that they don't want licensing and in states that do they put up with it until the day they can completely root it out entirely. In NY they almost got that when they dumb down the New York state exam because they said it was to hard and all your large stores and boxes were on board with it. Now you have the New York Mickey Mouse exam it's ridiculous what they did.That's a LOT of they's. It looks like everyone else is to blame then? We aren't our own worst enemy? I read the posts. I see a lot of opticians decrying advancement of the profession. I see opticians saying they don't need no edumacashuhn. I see opticians happy with their skill and education status quo, but not happy with their lot in life. I see opticians blaming every entity in the industry for the degradation of our profession. I see forces within the industry taking advantage of all of these things, and opticians allow it. I see some opticians trying to lead the way to a better future and being continually shot down by the naysayers and the do-nothings. I KNOW that there are no forces in this industry that can prevent me from bettering myself. We can do better, guys. Where's the guy that started this thread? Stop asking questions and start giving some answers. Help fix the problem.
This would've been a lot easier to fix in the past. The horse is running loose and the barn is on fire, but it's not gone yet. Many of us didn't preside over this decline, but it's ours as long as we call ourselves opticians. There's no quick fix. This decline has been going on for years, and it mirrors the decline of the U.S., but who say's it's too late? And if so, why don't you jump ship now?
We opticians keep blaming everyone else for our problems, like the little pig crying because the big bad wolf blew his house down, all the while ignoring that it was made of straw in the first place. Most opticians have invested little to nothing in themselves in comparison to the other O's and the industry powers, but we show up wanting better pay than other degreed professionals. We won't progress or even survive until we change that.
Last edited by Wes; 09-15-2011 at 06:08 AM.
Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
yes, its a nice thread and cause lots of discussion and opinions
He is right here following each post with more and more disgust.
The words of Curious Cat keep ringing in my head......."Crabs in a bucket"!
I asked a simple question to a difficult question. I didn't expect this thread to derail (in typical Optiboard fashion) into a "Mine is bigger than yours"-type argument.
I was hoping to get enough feedback to solidify my opinion. I didn't expect this thread to be an education/no education debate.
Put a fork in it, Opticianry IS dead.
I had the opportunity to share a lunch table w/ a graduate of a 2 year opticianry program recently. I too, am an apprenticed optician, and considered myself to be one of the more knowledgeable opticians. Boy did I find out I was wrong! This girl was asking me questions about topics I had only heard of, such as ray tracing, automated lamellar keratoplasty,cycloplegic refraction, and other terms that I can only hope to one day understand. She seemed to have a comfortable knowledge of all aspects of the industry from anatomy, to contact lens fitting, to spectacle lens surfacing. I was in awe of the depth of her knowledge base.
Could she have learned all of that as an apprentice? Maybe, but probably not to the extent she had, and in the time period she did. (She was 24 yrs. old). I asked her where she worked and she informed me that she manages an ophthalmology group. I pushed the envelope, and asked her if she would "ballpark" the salary she was being paid. She didn't ballpark it, but instead stated that she was making $83k, plus full benefits. She has been employed with the group for 2.5 years.
So, yes, you may consider yourself "just as knowledgeable", but you're really just kidding yourself. This type of training/schooling is not for everybody, and I doubt that I could make it through, but if I had a son or daughter that wanted to get into the field, I would insist on an opticianry school. No doubt about it.
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