Costco is Now in-Network Providers of VSP

[kcount]

At the end of the day, here's the reality.

VSP doesn't care. (Nor does Essilor, Luxottica, Marcolin, Robert Marc, Tom Davies or any other buisness your working with.)

VSP is in busines to support.... wait for it.... VSP Global and the shareholders. They make purchases and sales aligned with that one purpose. Luxottica did the same when they purchased US Shoe. Your happy frame companies sell to you to increase their profits, not yours. Yes, they want to be your buddy but they also want to grow their business. We can all rail against 'The Machine' and 'The Man' but wouldn't you do the same?

If I was in a position to open more offices in my area, I would do it. I don't look out for the wellfare of the office on the otherside of town. Heck I don't look out for the welfare of the MD around the corner from me and they aren't looking out for me. We can all be friendly in business and help eachother when its not a detracter or detriment to ourselves but at the end of the day, when the cards are all layed out, I want to win. Guess what, so do they. As I said to a customer (yes this was a customer not a patient) just recently as they wanted to haggle me down in price, "This isn't a hobby."

VSP can buy or sell who ever they want, I don't care. What I do care about is how this effects me. VSP going into Costco opened up an avenue for me to bill direct to VSP. It allowed me to market on a more level playing feild against in network offices. Am I at a disadvantage because of the out of network rates? Yes, but I'd rather some of the pie than none of the pie. VSP buys Marchon and with it Officemate. At the time I thought it was a shrewd business move and I still do. They had a web portal for ordering and no CRM (Customer Relationship Management) backend. Marchon had the number one practice management software and CRM suit. I would have made the same move. Although I would most likely want to strip the frame company off and sold it to finance the original sale. Do I use Officemate? No and probably never will. Do I carry Marchon? No, and thats due to its over saturation in my market. If they came out with something cool I'd probably buy in.

Do I like VSP? Not really but they're here and I'll get over it and get back to work.

[Johns]

If I was in a position to open more offices in my area, I would do it. I don't look out for the wellfare of the office on the otherside of town. Heck I don't look out for the welfare of the MD around the corner from me and they aren't looking out for me. We can all be friendly in business and help eachother when its not a detracter or detriment to ourselves but at the end of the day, when the cards are all layed out, I want to win. Guess what, so do they. As I said to a customer (yes this was a customer not a patient) just recently as they wanted to haggle me down in price, "This isn't a hobby."

Kevin,

Being an employee of both an OD, and an optician, I hear this daily. The only problem with your analogy, is that your competition down the street is not in a reciprocating relationship. That is, you do not buy/sell/trade products and/or services with you.

You and my bosses are all on the same page, and the most important thing you can remember is this. You have no choice who you competition is, or where they locate their office. You do, however, have a choice as to whom you do business with, and which companies you purchase from. In fact, that is one of the last choices a business owner can actually make.

[kcount]

I have to disagree Darby. I had a Choice of competitors when I opened. I was last man in the swimming pool. Do you think any of your vendors care about your business beyond your paying off your tab? If the office closed tomorrow they'd first check your balance. Then they would feel sorry for you before they went back to work.

As I once said to a coworker that was leaving the office I worked at. 'Have a nice life.' When someone leaves we never write, we don't call we simply move on.

[Barry Santini]

I'm sorry, did I miss a question or two from you both?

No, it appears to us that you don't "understand" the real query behind our questions

B

[racethe1320]

(VSP decided they need more cake.)

Okay, so you feel VSP is out for more cake. The key then become do you understand why and how that decision, regardless of your personal feelings, affects you in business? It's clear to me you understand one version of it, the one you see. How about the reality of it. Do you feel you know why VSP is making the decisions they are? You pick the subject, Costco, Marchon, etc....I look forward to hearing your understanding.

At the end of the day, here's the reality.

VSP doesn't care. (Nor does Essilor, Luxottica, Marcolin, Robert Marc, Tom Davies or any other buisness your working with.) VSP is in busines to support.... wait for it.... VSP Global and the shareholders. They make purchases and sales aligned with that one purpose.

I respectfully disagree. VSP absolutely cares. What makes you say they don't ?

• Who is VSP Global?
• You do realize there are no shareholders right?
• You do realize the profits from all their businesses go back into the business and/or are used to benefit their 28k+ panel members right?

I do agree that they make purchases with a purpose. The difference is on what we each see as that purpose.

Luxottica did the same when they purchased US Shoe. Your happy frame companies sell to you to increase their profits, not yours. Yes, they want to be your buddy but they also want to grow their business.

So in terms of Marchon, do you understand why they acquired the business/company? Do you understand how VSP Global and Marchon profits are used to benefit panel docs?

If I was in a position to open more offices in my area, I would do it. I don't look out for the wellfare of the office on the otherside of town. Heck I don't look out for the welfare of the MD around the corner from me and they aren't looking out for me. We can all be friendly in business and help eachother when its not a detracter or detriment to ourselves but at the end of the day, when the cards are all layed out, I want to win. Guess what, so do they. As I said to a customer (yes this was a customer not a patient) just recently as they wanted to haggle me down in price, "This isn't a hobby."

So you're saying VSP isn't looking out for the welfare of their 28k panel docs and are out for themselves? Really?
So IOF is something they had to do? Why do you think they did it?
So their private labeled products don't offer benefits to doctors?
So the money they make isn't put to use insuring more doctors can be added to the mix and fed more patients?
So is there another managed care company offering online optical that will benefit your office financially?
Has any other company out there helped level the playing field with Essilor so that all of you could benefit like VSP has? Has anyone here even thought through this?

VSP going into Costco opened up an avenue for me to bill direct to VSP. It allowed me to market on a more level playing feild against in network offices. Am I at a disadvantage because of the out of network rates? Yes, but I'd rather some of the pie than none of the pie.

So how has that changed from 2-3-4 years ago? Costco has always been out of network, no different than today. The only difference is now the Client and benefits mgr. has the ability to share with their employees the option of saying VSP now offers more "options" It's still up to you and the VSP Panel doc to get that client to choose you. VSP still only "directs" clients to private practice panel docs.

VSP buys Marchon and with it Officemate. At the time I thought it was a shrewd business move and I still do.

It was a good smart move. Being able to fend off the enemy (Lux/EyeMed) and feed your panel docs by gaining further solid ground in the marketplace through diversification is a business move that successful companies make.

If they came out with something cool I'd probably buy in.

Are you aware of what they have overseas in Europe? Hang on, you're going to enjoy the ride. It's cool stuff.

Do I like VSP? Not really but they're here and I'll get over it and get back to work.

The question isn't whether anyone likes them. The question is do you understand them and are you able to benefit from what they do?

[racethe1320]

however, have a choice as to whom you do business with, and which companies you purchase from. In fact, that is one of the last choices a business owner can actually make.

I agree, and I hope you and your bosses look at that decision wisely. Are the monies your spending with those companies directly or indirectly benefiting you? IIRC, you're a VSP Panel practice right?

I'd love to know what vendors you use and how you see them as directly or indirectly helping you and your office.

[racethe1320]

No, it appears to us that you don't "understand" the real query behind our questions

I've answered every question ever posed to me. What I don't understand is why no one answers mine. I read a lot of about likes and understandings but when I ask follow up questions to begin discussion, threads go off in 4 different tangents and eventually plummet to the bottom and are never touched again. I suppose I should just read between the lines that getting to the real answer isn't what this place is about. Interesting.

[Barry Santini]

I've answered every question ever posed to me. What I don't understand is why no one answers mine. I read a lot of about likes and understandings but when I ask follow up questions to begin discussion, threads go off in 4 different tangents and eventually plummet to the bottom and are never touched again. I suppose I should just read between the lines that getting to the real answer isn't what this place is about. Interesting.

Race, I think it only appears to you "that getting to the real answer isn't what this place (optiboard) is about" because, at least from my side, you either can't or won't/don't see that your explanations (which boarders see as justifications) about why VSP, with their newfound girth, can't justifyto us why they're becoming both a more direct competitor and engine of change. All the gorillas appear to be rewriting rules of the game, on the fly, for their own benefit.

Yes, let's be fair. Other large corps are also doing the same, all why explaning the glaring inconsistency for support for us by saying "we can't leave that money on the table, now can we?"

But is is we, the local ECP, who (wait for it...)

...used our power and influence , wielded through a sword of medical imprimatur, to intimately influence both clients and patients purchasing decisions. For our part, we thought were recommending good quality products...backed by companies who outwardly professed to "have our back!"

It's bad enough to discover we've been lied to. Its worse when companies try to spin an explanation that, seen from their end ONLY, appears perfectly logical and consistent.

Keep spinning. We're listening. This time, we're remembering.

And we won't forget.

Barry

[bigeyejim]

An old article, but worth the read for background info...

http://www.odwire.org/forum/threads/...?highlight=vsp

[AustinEyewear]

I commend you for hanging in there and voicing your opinion (unless you are a VSP paid agent, that would sort of change the situation). Boards like these tend to have people of the same opinion flock together and run off people with differing opinions, and pretty soon, its hard to have a two sided conversation. But... the amount of push back you are getting should tell you something about peoples perception of the V and how bad of a job V is doing P.R. wise if they really are trying to look out for the profession that they advertise to serve.

[bigeyejim]

What did they say on the conference call?

I love kicking around dead horses! Especially if they offer information ;)
So.....any new info from this confrerence call??

Yeah, well I guess I will get back to kicking the dead horse around! Yes, I registered for the Conference call and webinar, but couldn't get my audio to work until after the presentation on Costco. I saw the Costco logo and a big red dot in California...Then I saw a bunch of red dots all over the country. Hmmmm....my only guess is that after the pilot program, it will be rolled out nationwide.

What they were explaining was how by insuring more lives, we all win. Increasingly, (this is no duff), benefit managers want a "retail" solution similar to EyeMed - think Lenscrafters, Pearle, etc. Therefore, they rolled out a Pilot to see how it goes. They wouldn't say if the benefit managers got the Costco at a savings or not. Who knows. They just kept saying that we are adding Costco as an out of network provider so you will get more patients. Kind of like, I'm selling more Varilux lenses to increase the sales over at Zeiss. I just made that up on the spot, not too bad.

The other half of the webinar was eyeconic, the online retail store. It's made to of course, send me more patients. I believe it sorts by zip code, which could be problematic if you live in a metro area with multiples. Who knows about eyeconic......

Is this only the tip of the iceberg? Then read on....here is a blog entry from Al Cleinman. ECCA? Davis Vision?

http://alsblog.cleinman.com/2011/08/...mes-the-bride/

Now, it looks like you all drug the dead horse around quite a bit today, but as I was busy I didn't catch up. A nice cold bottle of 312 Urban Ale and my trusty MacBook pro, and now it's on!

There are some interesting points above, and I'm itching to respond, but here's for now!



Where'd the cheers guy go?

[bigeyejim]

Now, on to more things...In the good ole' days, we got on the VSP panel, saw patients, ordered what we thought was best for the patient, sold them their contact lenses, and got paid. You can even search old posts on this site and find things like, "but there's no cost of goods." Boy dem wuz da good days!!!!

Over the years, things have changed. I'm talking the last 2-7 years...Contact lenses: we now have certain lenses that will only pay a certain amount, and no more. Can't balance bill the patient. Are they old lenses? Yes and no. Used to be we were paid our CL fees, and the patient paid the rest, and EVERYONE was happy.

We went from "little or no COGS" to a "service fee." That amount keeps changing, and no not to our advantage. I have a new insurance biller who got her first VSP EOB and said, "how can they pay us negative $XX."

Over time, we have found that the VSP patients pay barely a few more profit percentages than medicaid. And yes, we sell good lenses, frames and AR's.

VSP and damage control? Darned right.

[racethe1320]

Race, I think it only appears to you "that getting to the real answer isn't what this place (optiboard) is about" because, at least from my side, you either can't or won't/don't see that your explanations (which boarders see as justifications) about why VSP, with their newfound girth, can't justifyto us why they're becoming both a more direct competitor and engine of change. All the gorillas appear to be rewriting rules of the game, on the fly, for their own benefit.

I'm not trying to justify anything or even sway an opinion. I'm trying to clarify things. I prefer to ask questions to invoke some thought, engage in conversation and bring out answers from you and others. VSP is undergoing a lot of change. Are you saying that's bad? How so? The market is evolving around you and them right? Then why do expect them not to change? How are they a direct competitor to you and other ECP's?

Yes, let's be fair. Other large corps are also doing the same, all why explaning the glaring inconsistency for support for us by saying "we can't leave that money on the table, now can we?"

I'm not following you. How is VSP doing the same as these other corporations and showing a glaring inconsistency for supporting their panel docs? I think I've addressed this before, but am willing to hear your thoughts(s)

It's bad enough to discover we've been lied to. Its worse when companies try to spin an explanation that, seen from their end ONLY, appears perfectly logical and consistent.

How have you been lied to? How is their message a "spin" from their end only? Have I not clarified things from both sides? I haven't read any posts in reply to my questions asking for further clarification. Actually, I've not see many replies to my pretty clear questions period.

Keep spinning. We're listening. This time, we're remembering.

You call my asking questions spinning? How so? Again, care to follow up on any of the questions I'm asking in all my posts?

And we won't forget.

I don't anticipate you will. However you're doing a lot of avoiding of some pretty straight forward questions.

[racethe1320]

I commend you for hanging in there and voicing your opinion (unless you are a VSP paid agent, that would sort of change the situation).

I wish I was a paid agent. I'm just an old guy with bit of time and a lot of curiosity as to why there's so much misinformation and lack of understanding around here. I see a lot huge of posts with people spouting facts, spouting opinions, rumors and comments but hardly ever anyone digging deep and asking for true clarity.

Boards like these tend to have people of the same opinion flock together and run off people with differing opinions, and pretty soon, its hard to have a two sided conversation.

I agree and saw that early on. Every time I reply the all stand around and appear to scoff at "how dare he come in here with an opinion that's not approved by the masses", then they all huddle around and grunt together. I think it's that single minded approach that makes it hard to engage in conversation. Honestly, I wonder if people posses what it takes anymore. Just spout off a comment and disappear into another thread like Casper.

But... the amount of push back you are getting should tell you something about peoples perception of the V and how bad of a job V is doing P.R. wise if they really are trying to look out for the profession that they advertise to serve.

I completely agree that VSP could sure use a PR Team. I think at one time long ago, they had a good one. Adding to the mix 28k panel docs and growing and the speed and depth of the internet and it's all too fast for any company to keep up with. Perception is the reality of a person, but that perception doesn't equate to accuracy of the belief.

[racethe1320]

I saw the Costco logo and a big red dot in California...Then I saw a bunch of red dots all over the country. Hmmmm....my only guess is that after the pilot program, it will be rolled out nationwide.

So you're currently unaware of the status of the program? Did you ask for clarity on that?

Who knows. They just kept saying that we are adding Costco as an out of network provider so you will get more patients. Kind of like, I'm selling more Varilux lenses to increase the sales over at Zeiss. I just made that up on the spot, not too bad.

So you're saying you weren't able to follow the logic behind VSP either having the ability to get a client on board thus being able to direct those covered lives to panel docs or not getting them at all and having zero ability to direct employees who would instead have an EyeMed Card in their pocket? Really?

The other half of the webinar was eyeconic, the online retail store. It's made to of course, send me more patients. I believe it sorts by zip code, which could be problematic if you live in a metro area with multiples. Who knows about eyeconic......

So in the end, you really didn't pay clear attention did you? Why even post what you have?

Is this only the tip of the iceberg? Then read on....here is a blog entry from Al Cleinman. ECCA? Davis Vision?
There are some interesting points above, and I'm itching to respond, but here's for now!

So please tell us more of your thoughts on the ECCA and Affiliate Program. I'm glad to hear you may actually be the one to respond.

[racethe1320]

Over the years, things have changed. I'm talking the last 2-7 years...Contact lenses: we now have certain lenses that will only pay a certain amount, and no more. Can't balance bill the patient. Are they old lenses? Yes and no. Used to be we were paid our CL fees, and the patient paid the rest, and EVERYONE was happy.

Oh yeah....the good old days. Back when managed care didn't even exist. My how times change eh? I mean everyone was happy. WTF! Why?, why? why? Seriously, why do you think that such change has occured? Isn't the rest of the landscape in our industry just as it was 10-20-30, how about 40 years ago? Isn't it all the same?

That amount keeps changing, and no not to our advantage. I have a new insurance biller who got her first VSP EOB and said, "how can they pay us negative $XX."

So how has your practice changed over the past 20 or 30 years? It has changed right? Negative eh? Funny, I've never paid VSP to fit a patient or perform an exam.

Over time, we have found that the VSP patients pay barely a few more profit percentages than medicaid. And yes, we sell good lenses, frames and AR's. VSP and damage control? Darned right.

How are your end dollars in for VSP compared to other managed care plans? Please elaborate on what you see as this damage control.

Al Cleinman? You seriously quoted his blog? OMG, he's a paid joke! I get grief for coming here and sharing insight on VSP and you give him the time of day? WOW! HaHa! Let's see if he posts my comments and questions. Better yet, if he replies.

[Barry Santini]

I've got to give you credit, race....you do not shy from engaging opposing views.

Those here though, who follow my posts and know me well, also know I do not shy from engagement either.

Read my posts. Then think about how credible a statement from you is, implying that I'm not.

B

[racethe1320]

Then think about how credible a statement is that says I'm not.

I'm only going by what you're showing me in threads where you and I both appear.

[bigeyejim]

So you're currently unaware of the status of the program? Did you ask for clarity on that?

No, I think we are all aware of the status of the program.

So you're saying you weren't able to follow the logic behind VSP either having the ability to get a client on board thus being able to direct those covered lives to panel docs or not getting them at all and having zero ability to direct employees who would instead have an EyeMed Card in their pocket? Really?

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. It doesn't matter what card they have in their pocket, we get patients by what WE do, not what VSP does. I don't rely on ANY insurance plan to drive patients to me. We see a ton of EyeMed patients who can use their benefits 1 block away. Same goes for Spectera, Davis, et al.

So in the end, you really didn't pay clear attention did you? Why even post what you have?

I guess because I'm a little bit insane. I thought I did a pretty good wrap up of the webinar, however.

So please tell us more of your thoughts on the ECCA and Affiliate Program.

Here's what VSP said about it. I know it was on Al's blog, but since he is evidently a hack, I linked to VSP or rather Jobson, via the VSPOnline news release.

http://whatcounts.jobson.com/dm?id=A...610A6144B9CF49

What I think about it? I think it's great. It will bring more patients to my office.


[/QUOTE]

[bigeyejim]

Oh yeah....the good old days. Back when managed care didn't even exist. My how times change eh? I mean everyone was happy. WTF! Why?, why? why? Seriously, why do you think that such change has occured? Isn't the rest of the landscape in our industry just as it was 10-20-30, how about 40 years ago? Isn't it all the same?

So how has your practice changed over the past 20 or 30 years? It has changed right? Negative eh? Funny, I've never paid VSP to fit a patient or perform an exam.

We've only been doing it for about 12 or so years. And yep, it's changed. The Percepta got discontinued. No, I've never paid VSP for any services, however, there are times when the service fees i.e. chargebacks are greater than the payment amount, and we get a "negative." Granted, there are regional differences as far a pricing structures, but there is an occasional negative amount on an EOB.

How are your end dollars in for VSP compared to other managed care plans?

I look at my gross and net as a percentage, and that is all that matters in the end. I give away about 25-28 percent on VSP jobs. If your net should be in the 35% range, you are only netting about 10% on these patients. I give away 30-32 on what medicaid we're still involved in, for comparison sake. That's my only other managed care plan.

Al Cleinman? You seriously quoted his blog? OMG, he's a paid joke! I get grief for coming here and sharing insight on VSP and you give him the time of day? WOW! HaHa! Let's see if he posts my comments and questions. Better yet, if he replies.

In Al's defense, I don't really know him personally, but his blog was quicker to link to. However, the same links were on the VSP website.

[racethe1320]

no, i think we are all aware of the status of the program.

So you've consulted with everyone on the matter? That's not what I've seen here. Posts all over indicate not everyone is aware and even by your own statement you "guess"

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. It doesn't matter what card they have in their pocket, we get patients by what we do, not what vsp does. I don't rely on any insurance plan to drive patients to me. We see a ton of eyemed patients who can use their benefits 1 block away. Same goes for spectera, davis, et al.

Thank you for being honest vs not. I'm sure you as many others do, attract patients through other means than managed care. I've never indicated everyone relies solely on managed care.

My point is you indicated through your comments that you were not able to follow the logic as to WHY VSP made the minor changes to Costco's involvement as an out of network provider. "Who knows" was your comment. That indicates you're not aware of WHY. You also gave an example that isn't anywhere near synonymous with why.

• So in the end we've clarified that you like many others don't need to rely on VSP For patients, but many do. Nothing new or insightful there. That was never in question.
• You've clarified that not everyone is aware of the status of the program nor the reasons behind it.
• You've clarified that you are not aware as to why the changes were made.

I guess because i'm a little bit insane. I thought i did a pretty good wrap up of the webinar, however.

I can't comment on your sanity, but I'm glad you think you did a pretty good job. I can't agree though. I don't see where you were able to provide any depth to comments made on the webinar to show you really paid attention.

Here's what vsp said about it. I know it was on al's blog, but since he is evidently a hack, i linked to vsp or rather jobson, via the vsponline news release.
http://whatcounts.jobson.com/dm?id=a...610a6144b9cf49
what i think about it? I think it's great. It will bring more patients to my office.

I'm glad you think you'll benefit from the ECCA decision. Is that the depth of your thoughts or understanding of it? My point is it's not a negative thing for VSP Panel docs nor is VSP doing something to hurt their ECP's. It's actually the opposite. However, I don't suppose you understand that program enough either to articulate on it further.

[racethe1320]

We've only been doing it for about 12 or so years. And yep, it's changed. The Percepta got discontinued. No, I've never paid VSP for any services, however, there are times when the service fees i.e. chargebacks are greater than the payment amount, and we get a "negative." Granted, there are regional differences as far a pricing structures, but there is an occasional negative amount on an EOB.

So when you receive money back from EyeMed, who pays your lab bill?
How about on VSP Claims, who pays your lab bill?

I look at my gross and net as a percentage, and that is all that matters in the end. I give away about 25-28 percent on VSP jobs. If your net should be in the 35% range, you are only netting about 10% on these patients. I give away 30-32 on what medicaid we're still involved in, for comparison sake. That's my only other managed care plan.

So you are a VSP Panel doctor? Is it your practice? Are you the decision maker? The reason I ask is you mention you give away about 25-28% yet being a panel doc is completely optional. I'm confused as to why you complain about giving away money yet still choose to continue to do so? Why is that? You mentioned you sell higher end products and uplifts in the dispensary. Are you earning all you can from VSP's other programs and means?

I'm sorry but if Docs are upset strictly about service fees for exams, etc. and not interested in maximizing their dispensary, I have no sympathy. They joined the world of retail the moment they graduated and again when they opened their practice and dispensary. They do have a choice just to do exams. Lots of choices in that realm. Yet many who complain don't pursue just the exam and patient route.

In Al's defense, I don't really know him personally, but his blog was quicker to link to. However, the same links were on the VSP website.

I don't know him personally either. I follow his and other blogs sporatically. IMO, he's nothing more than a blogger who likes to stir the pot with half truths, his own "spin" and provides just enough to cause questions to be asked but provides no clear direction on where to go to get the real answers. He likes to sit back and watch the whirlwind of rumors spin and in some strange way thinks he's contributing in a positive way. His intentions are pretty clear to anyone who has a clue though, but again, he's nothing new. That crap is all over the online world in every industry.

Thanks for the conversation.

[DragonLensmanWV]

Does the former Iraqi Information Minister come to anyone else's mind?