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Thread: I released a PD....

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    Because big brother has ruled that if the pt has paid their account and there are no medical reasons not to release the Rx then the practitioner must release the Rx.......nothing has ever been ruled on in ref to a PD other then it must me accurate.
    Ahh..then we'll have to fix this little loophole that forces ODs to comply with prescription release, but not opticians with the PD. Remember, Eyeglasses 1 was not passed so much by big brother, in a vacuum. It was passed at the behest of a small special interest group ...opticians.
    Last edited by fjpod; 06-24-2011 at 03:32 AM.

  2. #27
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    In the optometry world, if a patient pays you for a fitting and dispensing, these measurements become part of the patients medical record. Patients are entitled to their records any time they ask for them, even if state law doesn't require the release of a PD with the prescription. If opticians think they do not have to release this information because they don't keep a ":medical record", then they are not really healthcare professionals, and have an unfair market advantage over John Q. Public. this will eventually get "fixed" (or broken depending on how you look at things).

    Sorry for taking the unpopular view here, but what's fair is fair.

    On this issue of liability from releasing a PD...c'mon...how many people have died from the wrong PD? How many people have died from the worng spectacle Rx? Heck, people are allowed to go pick out their own reading Rx's with random PDs in the dollar store. Where liability often does rear it's ugly head, though, is in failure to diagnose...IOW doing an eye exam without detecting a pathology.(...but I digress...).

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    You will not smell yourself, when you think that you charged her:

    $ 25.00 for taking the PD
    $ 45.00 for checking the finished glasses and adjusting them after delivery.

    $ 70.00 total, purely for professional service and labour (if you did not do that you made the big mistake)

    Nothing to smell and having to shower for. On Liners sell glasses by the thousands and they need your services for the measurements and afterservices. Your knowdledge is worth a commercial fee.

    So take the money and don't feel bad.
    I agree with Chris on this point, but the fees charged maybe should be lower. Couple of months ago, I pointed out that there will be very small BOX offices doing the PD and adjustments only and I predict this will be a NEW niche market for Opticians. The world is changing, and we have to adapt to the changes in the quickest manner. The smartest people are those who are able to do the adaption.

    This will happen very soon. A "PD and adjustment office" will appear soon, believe me.
    Last edited by Patrick888; 06-24-2011 at 02:58 PM.

  4. #29
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    That sounds like we should surrender to the online market, close up shop and start a PD kiosk.
    DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
    "There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."

  5. #30
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    If I let such small things worry me, I would be on much better terms with my fishing pole.

    Just had a old ex-patient in from decades ago in begging me to loosen her keratoconnus contact because she buys them from her doctor now and he has her travel to the lab in Memphis periodicly for this. You think I'm gonna do his scutt at any price? If he's gonna be her contact lens fitter, she can put up with his methods. This is the same thing you are complaining about except the good doctor is the one stealing my business. Now you young folks who actually are on the doctor's payroll don't even see the concept, but you are worrying about a free P.D. claiming all sorts of liability and time wasted.
    Hell I even have doctors that have out of state ocularist who travel to the doctor's office, make eyes and bill (and probably split fees) through the doctor.

    What's one more step to the mail order?

    Chip

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick888 View Post
    I agree with Chris on this point, but the fees charged maybe should be lower.
    Disagree, charge what the market will bear, I frankly don't see the point in charging/offering Rx verification upfront, but PD.... if you've chosen to do this, get what you can for it, I've charged close to Chris' total on occasion just for measuring the PD... Your time, and especially your expertise... it's worth considerable money, don't give it away.

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    Blue Jumper some opticians will have some sorts of kiosk ...................................

    Quote Originally Posted by Oedema View Post

    Disagree, charge what the market will bear, I frankly don't see the point in charging/offering Rx verification upfront, but PD.... if you've chosen to do this, get what you can for it, I've charged close to Chris' total on occasion just for measuring the PD... Your time, and especially your expertise... it's worth considerable money, don't give it away.

    Oedema............you are right. Charge what you can get away with. The "get away with" can change wiith location, from fancy downtown, to poor suburb, plus professional ability.

    Patrick was also right.................there will be kiosks soon at street corners doing PDs and adjustments charging for time used or selling packages for their time.

    I bet that some opticians will have some sorts of kiosk besides their regular B&M store under different names, to have their operations separated.

  8. #33
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Online/Kiosk PDs, VTO (virtual try-on) and "how to" eyeglass adjustment instructions/You Tube Videos will definitely solidify the premise that delivering 'adequate" is no longer enough to survive.

    Our Optiboarder handskills in adjustments/repairs are, IMHO, at least as good as the best best available. I agree with Chris that you should leverage your best skills for fees, or bundle them into other tranactions that you realize an optimal return on. "Hail-Mary" eyewear sales are NOT the future. Multiple transactions are, even if the margins are less than history has promised.

    Whatever the client/customer wants, I'm ready to deliver at the highest level I know how. This is the way it has always been for me. Chip, when that CL/hard lens client came back to you, I respectfully suggest you stay in the dialogue, charge her an appropriate fee, and "loosen" her lenses. *Your* (present and potential) clients will soon realize that "a la Carte" *always* end up more expensive/inconvenient than the "bundle" in your store.

    Make your competition play by your rules, and your terms, on your playing field.

    People may not always want/can afford/need/or understand what "the best" is. Your job is to be there when they do want then best, and have decided to pay for it. I believe independants are best served by reaching for the high-ground, no matter what price point levels their local demographics will support.

    PD's and other rote measurements have NEVER defined our eyewear quality. Those of us that hang on to this out-moded concept have already lost the war with the new and evolving eyewear distribution matrix.

    For the rest, who really don't see the need to re-evaluate their business strategies (primarily because they've been assured for years that "people will always need glasses"), the cretaceous-ending meteor has already entered the atmosphere.

    BANG! Your dead.

    B

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Of course one could give them the PD in inches, or any other unsual form of measurement. You can bet the dingies on line will never figure it out.


    Chip
    I process Internet orders and could figure it out. If you do not add perceived value, why would anyone not look to save money? The Internet will help flush out the poor retailers who were able to make it before by being cheap. Now they will have to be more expensive than the Internet and provide higher service levels.
    I am positioned to serve both the Internet business and the non insurance retail optical; you can fight it out for the rest of the pie.
    I charge suggested retail on the net and still sell service!!

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    Really no much trick to talk about the PD. There will surely be some type of business practice popping out very soon, like what you are naming it as PD Kiosk at the corner of the mall. From the info of the top 3 online dealers, they are shipping a total of 7000 pair everyday. Based on the report before the rising of online biz, the whole US optical stores are selling 250,000 pairs per day. (Annual sale of 80 million pairs of RX glasses for whole US)

    The reason why this 7000pairs per day are not eating the biz of independents is that people buy online mostly for the back up second pair, or those fancy women are buying online glasses like buying apparel and shoes to match their lifestyles.

  11. #36
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Having a PD kiosk will surely be the way to bankruptcy. The onliners don't really need one, as they have their own "formula" for it. So there is no call to have one.
    DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    In the optometry world, if a patient pays you for a fitting and dispensing, these measurements become part of the patients medical record. Patients are entitled to their records any time they ask for them,
    I will agree with this statement to a point. However, what if that patient doesn't purchase glasses from you? The only PD you have is from the autorefractor which is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.... Do you release a sub par measurement because its on the slip that printed so its now there record? And if so, When the glasses they bought online match the PD of that measurement but its not the pt's correct measurement, What do you do then?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait View Post
    I will agree with this statement to a point. However, what if that patient doesn't purchase glasses from you? The only PD you have is from the autorefractor which is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.... Do you release a sub par measurement because its on the slip that printed so its now there record? And if so, When the glasses they bought online match the PD of that measurement but its not the pt's correct measurement, What do you do then?
    We don't release a PD unless it was a measured one by one of our opticians and is recorded in the record. We have never had a patient come back and complain about online glasses they purchased, and certainly not as it relates to PD.

  14. #39
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    Very interesting comments but it would be great if we could quantify how many consumers buying online are actually 100% happy with their eyewear. Is there more of an opportunity here to offer adjustment services for a fee, e.g. supply the PD but say when you get your eyewear bring them in for correct adjustment and fitting if you are not happy with the result?

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    An excellent opportunity to do some major research. I would love to paricipate. If we could get one of the national groups to fund such an opportunity it would be super.

  16. #41
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    Redhot Jumper getting hit will bring the frame out of ligne..................................

    Quote Originally Posted by OVS View Post

    Very interesting comments but it would be great if we could quantify how many consumers buying online are actually 100% happy with their eyewear. Is there more of an opportunity here to offer adjustment services for a fee, e.g. supply the PD but say when you get your eyewear bring them in for correct adjustment and fitting if you are not happy with the result?

    The consumer should be made aware that glasses when gone through the lens mounting proxess are not a finished product. The glasses must be perfectly balanced and adjusted to the face and head. If not done properly they can be un- comfortable, can be crooked, can even hurt on the nose or the ears, or be loose and slide down the nose.

    Also hitting you head against something or getting hit will bring the frame out of ligne, like a car hitting a pothole and needing a wheel alignment.

    Find all the possible reasons to sell your services and price the properly and fair for both side.

    People who have worn glasses for a while do know that, but the younger generation just starting out, might not.

  17. #42
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OVS View Post
    Very interesting comments but it would be great if we could quantify how many consumers buying online are actually 100% happy with their eyewear. Is there more of an opportunity here to offer adjustment services for a fee, e.g. supply the PD but say when you get your eyewear bring them in for correct adjustment and fitting if you are not happy with the result?
    This premise is inherently skewed:

    People's level of (at least initial) satisfaction with online eyewear) is directly proportional to the amount of perceived savings

    The less you pay, the *happier* you are.

    Our job, as survivors in the B&M jungle, is to be there, with a clear position as to what you represent, when those that decide to make a purchase at a higher-quality tier come in to your store. I believe now, as Chris R does, that staying in the "dialogue" by providing a la carte measurements and other services, is essential to staking out your quality position.

    Think of it this way: just how much do you really know about your neighbors...the ones that live right near you?

    Same holds true for your local clientele (defined in my book as "anyone who calls or walks in your door"). They could live right by your practice, so what makes you think they would intuitively understand "what you represent or are about"

    Provide the services. Stay in the dialogue.

    $0.02.

    B

  18. #43
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    How you gonna know even with an interview or questionaire if the patient is happy. We all see patients with temples bent down 90 degrees, wearing glasses halfway down thier nose, sitting crooked, with temples an inch too long or short. Many of these are from reputable establishments owned by doctors selling high end glasses at very high end prices, some are "adjustments" the patient made themselves. Some are from big-box, some are from those places supposedly inexpensive, some from places known to be extreemly high end.
    The point is the public doesn't know good from bad, a lot of our highly reputed establishments are clueless so how are they going to know about a small (or large) PD error?
    And no, having a certifercate or other paper on the wall doesn't seem to have much to do with the quality of the product. Remember a lot of think we are in sales.

    Chip

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    At our office we will release the PD measurement if and only if they pay $25, and after we advise them of the stupidity of buying prescription eyewear online. Many people will not pay the money, and those who really want the measurement will pay. Truth be told, if you think you can get a better pair of eyeglasses from Zenni, I do not want you or need you as a customer...

  20. #45
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    Speaking from the UK, we will release a PD only if:

    1. The patient agrees to listen to a five minute chat on the dangers of buying spex online and all the other measurements that we take into account.
    2. It has been measured in the last 2 years here, i.e. they have bought within two years.
    3. They take their PD away with them on this form from the Association of British Dispensing Opticians: http://www.abdo.org.uk/pdfs/NewAdvic...May%202011.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait View Post
    I will agree with this statement to a point. However, what if that patient doesn't purchase glasses from you? The only PD you have is from the autorefractor which is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.... Do you release a sub par measurement because its on the slip that printed so its now there record? And if so, When the glasses they bought online match the PD of that measurement but its not the pt's correct measurement, What do you do then?
    If we haven't measured it for spectacles, then it isn't avaliable to the patient as an issuing of their PD. If they want to ask for a copy of their records, in writing, wait for us to photocopy their records and post them out, they can and will pretty much do what they want. The autorefractor PD is on there, but it is what it is, an autorefractor PD. They have taken their medical records and are interpreting them without medical training, it is obviously a recipe for disaster!

    In the past 12 months I think I've issued 3 PD's,1 came back to purchase new spex from us because the online ones were completely useless to him, 1 came in to try and get us to 'fix' his online ordered varifocals (don't quite know what he wanted me to do with them, heights were completely off!) and I haven't heard from the third, so I assume it worked out for her.

    Personally, I don't see online as a real threat, however I would agree that most patients do need more education in that area, and if buying useless spex is how they choose to educate themselves, then let it be an expensive lesson. If they want to come in and ask me, I will explain why we don't recommend buying off the net, and give them the relevant information from the UK's regulatory bodies. I don't think that PD is the issue when it comes to buying online. If all you consider when dispensing is Rx and PD, then you're a pretty awful optician, and deserve to lose your patients to an online outfit, but to be honest, I don't know a single optician who only does this.

    I'm a big fan of 'dispensing theater', for want of a better term. I will take monocular PD's (with a pupilometer and a ruler), face wrap, panto, BVD, heights, bridge projection, length to bend (with a ruler, not just by eye!), length to drop, etc. for every patient, whether I need them or not, because a) it looks good, b) it helps the patient to see me as a professional, not just a salesperson c) if I ever do need these measurements, I have them on record. Cynical, maybe, but doing everything you can and telling the patient what you are doing whilst you do it really does impress people.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    How you gonna know even with an interview or questionaire if the patient is happy. We all see patients with temples bent down 90 degrees, wearing glasses halfway down thier nose, sitting crooked, with temples an inch too long or short. Zyl frames whose bridge has no relationship with the patient's bridge, rocking or pinching. Many of these are from reputable establishments owned by doctors selling high end glasses at very high end prices, some are "adjustments" the patient made themselves. Some are from big-box, some are from those places supposedly inexpensive, some from places known to be extreemly high end.
    The point is the public doesn't know good from bad, a lot of our highly reputed establishments are clueless so how are they going to know about a small (or large) PD error?
    And no, having a certifercate or other paper on the wall doesn't seem to have much to do with the quality of the product. Remember a lot of think we are in sales.

    Chip
    True, unfortunately all too true. I do glasses checks when pt. is having trouble with new glasses.........Most common problems encountered are not Rx, they are simple frame adjustments! Progressives: Invariably sitting too high, if not a zyl frame I perform instant magic trick with my thumbs...Patient is invariably flabbergasted, hate turns to love, instant disgust with dispenser of glasses who failed to see the problem, & even remade them sometimes, to no avail.
    Can't even count how many temples have not been adjusted to ears, NO PANTO on these skinny frames, face form? What's that?, Single vision high Rx hanging off nose, Frame too small with 'watermelon seed' effect......I could go on & on. Most of these come from corporate optical, but a disturbing # from independents. Too many have never been adjusted in any way shape or form.
    So, Chip is correct, people who have never had the experience of a well fitted pair are doomed to more of the same, not knowing life could be so much better. You can bet these people would return to you if you sent them out wearing a masterpiece, it doesn't take much. I do not allow poorly fitted frames out of our optical by our optician.....That's the ART of dispensing.
    WE SEE THINGS NOT AS THEY ARE, BUT AS WE ARE..... Anais Nin

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait View Post
    I will agree with this statement to a point. However, what if that patient doesn't purchase glasses from you? The only PD you have is from the autorefractor which is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.... Do you release a sub par measurement because its on the slip that printed so its now there record? And if so, When the glasses they bought online match the PD of that measurement but its not the pt's correct measurement, What do you do then?
    We are not really doing PDs...at least in SV. We're doing prism, or lack thereof, along with best form lense positioning.

    B

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    I suppose one could give a PD in hectars, or rods, or some other very uncommon measurements. Anything to make it a little more difficult.
    I used to give contact lens specs with, BC radius, PC radius/width, bevel width, lenticular field, central thickness, lens diameter, seg.ht, prism, etc. You would be amazed at the number of eye care professionals who would call and want to know what the numbers were. Many found it especially confusing if the BC were stated in diopters. Then they would say: "I only wanted to know the brand."

    Chip

    Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    The VA state board for Opticians determined that an Optician may be held liable for "errors or ommissions" if we provide measurements for online retailers.
    I've been searching for information regarding the liability for Licensed Opticians if we provide PD's and came across this post. (What prompted it was a patient / customer asking for PD and SEG height measurements. They had a frame with them and said the frame they wanted would be similar to the one they were carrying) I've searched the Opticianry Board website and cannot locate specific information. Would you be able to provide assistance and direct me to the regulation? Thank You!

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    Blue Jumper Start facing the facts ....................

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyecare Pro View Post

    I've searched the Opticianry Board website and cannot locate specific information. Would you be able to provide assistance and direct me to the regulation? Thank You!

    Just give it a little more time we are now 7 years later and the situation is still the same.

    The big Essilux merger has been approved by all affected countries and will now happen shortly.

    That will change the optical retail and manufacturing business
    right down into the basics.

    They have done their footwork to influence decision makers world wide, over the last 15 years and will get their green light wherever needed.

    Essilux will own the largest block of optical one liners, and have some 5,000 LensCrafter store (to start with) to service the work, while conventional optician haggle on who is responsible for having taken a PD, you can even take online these days.

    Start facing the facts .....................the avalanche is coming down the mountain.

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