Better way to measure?

[peyes]

Would like to implement a better way to measure for pals; pd, seg etc. Anyone using Optikam or other devices?

[chip anderson]

"Better" or easier for off the street employees?

[finefocus]

What could be easier than just taking a PD stick and measuring from bottom groove to pupil? The secret to measurement happiness is allowing for parallax, of course, and particularly posture. So, the moment you first cast eyes on the patient, you start cataloging their posture, learning how they move, how they react to sitting, standing, reading, perusing the frame displays, etc. You enter all that in your personal organic computer, and make a judgement about eventual frame position and seg height.
I don't know of a purchaseable system that does that. "Put-your-chin-in-the-rest-and-hold-still" is inadequate.

[cocoisland58]

Sometimes the old ways are still the best ways. I will probably die with my PD stick in hand.

[obxeyeguy]

What could be easier than just taking a PD stick and measuring from bottom groove to pupil? The secret to measurement happiness is allowing for parallax, of course, and particularly posture.

A lot of things can be easier. From what you have stated, I will assume that you hold your PD ruler with the zero at the top, and the higher (6 or 7, depending on the ruler) at the bottom towards the patients check. To accurately get a seg height of any kind, prog, FT, Tri, you need to really guess at where exactly you are, top and bottom. You have to constantly move your head up and down to eliminate any parallax for viewing where the PD stick is on the eyewire and then to the pupil, all while holding your hand perfectly still, and the patient not moving.

Now for the easy way, and the most accurate method I learned about 30 years ago.

Step 1: Measure the "B" of the frame

Step 2: When measuring, set your rule up-side down, with the B number set at the top of the eyewire, hold semi securely. Now your zero point is the very bottom of the frame at the deapest point. ( a simple "B", only up-side down)

Step 3: Set yourself at eye level in a normal position, hold PD stick as said, and simply read your seg height directly off of where you want it. You have completely elliminated any parallax, as you are really only reading one number, where you want the seg to be. You also are measuring where the eye is without guessing where the deepest part of the frame is. (think Aviator shape)

Step 4: If you are still using the PD rule with the zero at the top, explain to me how if you are right handed you measure accurately a left eye. ( or vice versa) The ruler and your hand are in the way. If some are still using this method, I would suggest going to the dredded blue marker on the pupil, it is more accurate, and also makes all your demo frames look really nice when no one cleans the dots off.

Step 5: I personally don't need some over priced gizmo to tell me how to measure a seg height. Learn the skills people, it's really not that difficult.

[Judy Canty]

A lot of things can be easier. From what you have stated, I will assume that you hold your PD ruler with the zero at the top, and the higher (6 or 7, depending on the ruler) at the bottom towards the patients check. To accurately get a seg height of any kind, prog, FT, Tri, you need to really guess at where exactly you are, top and bottom. You have to constantly move your head up and down to eliminate any parallax for viewing where the PD stick is on the eyewire and then to the pupil, all while holding your hand perfectly still, and the patient not moving.

Now for the easy way, and the most accurate method I learned about 30 years ago.

Step 1: Measure the "B" of the frame

Step 2: When measuring, set your rule up-side down, with the B number set at the top of the eyewire, hold semi securely. Now your zero point is the very bottom of the frame at the deapest point. ( a simple "B", only up-side down)

Step 3: Set yourself at eye level in a normal position, hold PD stick as said, and simply read your seg height directly off of where you want it. You have completely elliminated any parallax, as you are really only reading one number, where you want the seg to be. You also are measuring where the eye is without guessing where the deepest part of the frame is. (think Aviator shape)

Step 4: If you are still using the PD rule with the zero at the top, explain to me how if you are right handed you measure accurately a left eye. ( or vice versa) The ruler and your hand are in the way. If some are still using this method, I would suggest going to the dredded blue marker on the pupil, it is more accurate, and also makes all your demo frames look really nice when no one cleans the dots off.

Step 5: I personally don't need some over priced gizmo to tell me how to measure a seg height. Learn the skills people, it's really not that difficult.

+1

[DFEC]

I'm old school but our office has the Zeiss iTerminal. I take manual measurements for seg's and PAL's and use a pupilometer to get PD's, then I use the iTerminal because our doctors want us too. Patients like the technology and its fun to use the iTerminal in consultation mode so patients can how AR "looks" and tints and how different frames look on them. That is one feature I like about the iTerminal because sometimes patients cant see without their glasses and with pictures on the monitor its easier. I use the iTerminal measurements for individual PAL's and most others as long as they are close to mine.

[Speed]

Would like to implement a better way to measure for pals; pd, seg etc. Anyone using Optikam or other devices?

You need a Grollman Device.

[specs2see]

way over rated. just take good measurements the same way you have been. resuls will be the same i swear

[specs2see]

"Better" or easier for off the street employees?

Chip, could not agree with you more:bbg:

[specs2see]

aint that hard guys, lets not make it more technical than it is

[finefocus]

A lot of things can be easier. From what you have stated, I will assume that you hold your PD ruler with the zero at the top, and the higher (6 or 7, depending on the ruler) at the bottom towards the patients check. To accurately get a seg height of any kind, prog, FT, Tri, you need to really guess at where exactly you are, top and bottom. You have to constantly move your head up and down to eliminate any parallax for viewing where the PD stick is on the eyewire and then to the pupil, all while holding your hand perfectly still, and the patient not moving.

Now for the easy way, and the most accurate method I learned about 30 years ago.

Step 1: Measure the "B" of the frame

Step 2: When measuring, set your rule up-side down, with the B number set at the top of the eyewire, hold semi securely. Now your zero point is the very bottom of the frame at the deapest point. ( a simple "B", only up-side down)

Step 3: Set yourself at eye level in a normal position, hold PD stick as said, and simply read your seg height directly off of where you want it. You have completely elliminated any parallax, as you are really only reading one number, where you want the seg to be. You also are measuring where the eye is without guessing where the deepest part of the frame is. (think Aviator shape)

Step 4: If you are still using the PD rule with the zero at the top, explain to me how if you are right handed you measure accurately a left eye. ( or vice versa) The ruler and your hand are in the way. If some are still using this method, I would suggest going to the dredded blue marker on the pupil, it is more accurate, and also makes all your demo frames look really nice when no one cleans the dots off.

Step 5: I personally don't need some over priced gizmo to tell me how to measure a seg height. Learn the skills people, it's really not that difficult.

Wow, I never dreamed that holding the ruler wrong was an issue. For the record, I put zero on the bottom and read up to the point I've selected as correct. I then put an ink line on the demo lenses at the prospective height and get the patient to mimic driving posture, or stand up, or both, and view the height directly. Pretty analog, I think.

[Opticianjw]

Let me start by clearly stating I am involved in a small capacity with Optikam. I go to their both at Vision Expo east and West as a testimonial for Optikam. I am a progressive thinker and endorse this technology and always have stayed ahead of the curve. IN fact I bought my Optikam over four years ago for my own office before they had digital centration integrated. All that being said, I feel strongly for those of you that promote using a PD ruler as a sufficient means for taking progressive measurements or is the best and most accurate way. It was the only way of yesteryear but in noway an appropriate method for digital lenses. If you plan to sell flat tops and single vision in your future than a PD ruler will suffice but if you want to fit digital lenses accurately and provide RVD, faceform, and panto angle, which are critical measurements for digital lenses than the Optikam is a great tool to use. Most lens manufactures are now requesting these additional measurements and in the future will require them. At the present time labs are using generic default specs but cannot promise accuracy, without those proper additional measurements. For those of you that are taking monocular Pd's with a PD ruler and insisting that they are just as accurate as a digital pupilometer, I am sure you will never be ready for digital centration but those that are using a digital pupilometer and are looking for the best possible devise to sell tomorrows lenses, look into digital centration. It is the way of the future and the way measurements will be taken for the majority of professionals in the future, I guarantee it. I am not soliciting business but if you are interested in learning more about the Optikam or digital centration call my office 732-350-1900, I am more than happy to discuss this with you. Joel

[cocoisland58]

Step 2: When measuring, set your rule up-side down, with the B number set at the top of the eyewire, hold semi securely. Now your zero point is the very bottom of the frame at the deapest point. ( a simple "B", only up-side down).

I have always been an upside down measurer. Learned it that way 30 some years ago too. I teach this method as well as have them double check by taking the "B", dividing it in half and seeing if their original measurement for a PAL is 3-4 above center or 3-4 below center for a D-seg. If it is then they know the frame is sitting properly and a good choice.

[Judy Canty]

I've always measured upside down and backwards...I'm left-handed.

[Barry Santini]

Although excellent, digital centration devices, as well as marking demo lenses, require a *contextual* evaluation of the client's posture, postural tendency and frame fit preference /allowance in order to better zero in on a best target value.
The same is also true for pds and Rxs.

For everyone one of these measurements, there is not one single "correct" value, but rather a value range, defining the borders of which, is the job of a skilled dispenser to determine. Then, we simply target the center of this range in most cases.

Think IProfiler/IScription, but applied to POW and other values.

FWIW

B

[skt]

cocoisland58.....+1

[hcjilson]

I've always measured upside down and backwards...I'm left-handed.

Thats ANOTHER thing we have in common! :)

Hilco sells a simple device called Seg Hi's which are simple to use and quite accurate enough for today's progressives.

[Robert Martellaro]

If some are still using this method, I would suggest going to the dredded blue marker on the pupil, it is more accurate, and also makes all your demo frames look really nice when no one cleans the dots off.

I believe it was Jalie who said "Monocular PDs are of no use without reference to the frame."

Moreover, I can see what's selling by looking at which frames have blue crosses on the lenses!

So, the moment you first cast eyes on the patient, you start cataloging their posture, learning how they move, how they react to sitting, standing, reading, perusing the frame displays, etc. You enter all that in your personal organic computer, and make a judgement about eventual frame position and seg height.
I don't know of a purchaseable system that does that. "Put-your-chin-in-the-rest-and-hold-still" is inadequate.

Yep, what we do is slower, but potentially more accurate.

I use the iTerminal measurements for individual PAL's and most others as long as they are close to mine.

You might rephrase that to say "'I use the my manual measurements for individual PAL's and most others as long as they are close to the iTerminal measurements.:)

Although excellent, digital centration devices, as well as marking demo lenses, require a *contextual* evaluation of the client's posture, postural tendency and frame fit preference /allowance in order to better zero in on a best target value.
The same is also true for pds and Rxs.

For everyone one of these measurements, there is not one single "correct" value, but rather a value range, defining the borders of which, is the job of a skilled dispenser to determine. Then, we simply target the center of this range in most cases.

Think IProfiler/IScription, but applied to POW and other values.

FWIW

B

I strongly agree!

[Mario Pagé]

Would like to implement a better way to measure for pals; pd, seg etc. Anyone using Optikam or other devices?

There are units out there that will take the PD as well as the height along with pantoscopic tilt. Simply by taking a picture of your client.The best part is the a kid could run those units. Some are sold by lens supliers others will allow you to send your work to the lab of your choosing.Ie: smart mirror. That is not to say that the old way is not good but the new technologies will make your life easier.

[Happylady]

I use a penlight and a marker.

[Uilleann]

I stick with just the marker.

[chip anderson]

Anyone ever thought: "Why do we welcome technologies and gadgets that make us superfullous?

Chip

[Speed]

I remeber when AO made these clear stickers. Just dot them up and send them to the lab. We had a customer peel them of the frame and stick them to the Rx. HA HA.

[Opticianjw]

Dispensing systems and digital centration is the wave of the future. Some opticians are afraid of this technology and fear it could replace them, regardless of how they feel or how they endorse or use it, it will be in place in most dispensaries within the next 5 to 10 years. I am an Independent Optician and integrated the Optikam into my office over 4 years ago and have found it to be an tremendous asset which I have never regretted purchasing. It has added business and patient appreciate that we offer the most advanced technology available today. When I hear Opticians tell me how they can take just as accurate monocular PDs with a PD ruler or can make just as could of pair of glasses cutting their own patterns, I realize why our field is so backwards. Dispensing systems will not replace the need for skilled Opticians just as the auto refractor did not replace Optometrists. Technology should make you more proficient at what you do. We need more progressive thinkers and less Opticians with status quo mentality if they want to succeed into the future. Life moves forward or you will be left behind with your PD rulers, looking for a new career. If anyone wants additional information on my experiences using the Optikam, feel free to call me at my office 732-350-1900