Customers using your time then asking for the frame code to buy online...

[DragonLensmanWV]

Gee, I guess one question we should be asking ourselves is, do we want to refer some to, or buy something from someone who has such an extensive listing of our online competitors that makes it easy for anyone to bypass our B&M shops? And is an onliner himself?

[Barry Santini]

...they take up customer support time with questions, they order the wrong thing and return it (and we eat the cost because of their mistake), etc. And the price comparison issue is even harder for us, because they're just a couple clicks away from looking at a competitor, and usually it's a (other) competitor with worse quality, but there's no way for them to know that until after they buy.

"... but there's no way for them to know that until after they buy.

Words to live by....

B

[Chris Ryser]

Gee, I guess one question we should be asking ourselves is, do we want to refer some to, or buy something from someone who has such an extensive listing of our online competitors that makes it easy for anyone to bypass our B&M shops? And is an onliner himself?

..............a pretty heavy and unjust accusation towards which I should feel guilty because I am the only one to have this extensive listing of your friendly associate companies as well as your competitive ones. This is the only way to have fair and equal information on our industry. Besides that I really did not know I was an onliner myself.

[drk]

That's fair uncut but understand it from the online retailer's perspective: without a national regulatory framework it's near impossible to comply. That's why the FTC did Eyeglasses I and II and the Contact Lens rule and not the states. Add to that the frustration that even if you stick with state by state regulation, the regulations are seriously outdated and just plain don't consider online sales.

North Carolina is on the right step with their new regulations: they require online retailers to register with them (and of course pay a fee), and the way it reads to me is that they'll recognize licenses from other jurisdictions (although, not sure how that works out with unlicensed states), but that they do require a license. They also require a notice to consumers about the importance of post-sale adjustments and follow up at the time of sale.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm all for regulation of online sales. It could even be an opportunity to bring some regulation to the unlicensed states. That said, applying the existing patchwork framework and outdated laws is a mess and not the way to do it.

Obviously not, as you are flouting them with blatant disregard to state laws as written.

If you so favor and respect legislation, how about you cease and desist?

[drk]

I've said this ad nauseum, but it's Monday, and I haven't crusaded yet this week:

1. Ophthalmic lenses are prescription devices.
2. All states regulate prescribers.
3. Many/most states regulate prescription-fillers.
4. Online purchase of ophthalmic lenses invalidates #1-3 above.

End of story.


Don't fall for the argument that you're buying a nice set of gloves from Outdoorsman.com. These are medical devices.

HOW ABOUT A COMPROMISE? YOU SELL ONLY FRAMES AND NON-RX SUNWEAR ONLINE, AND WE'LL HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THAT NONSENSE WHEN WE FILL THE PRESCRIPTIONS. Then no laws are broken, and nobody has to suffer with poor visual outcomes.

[MichaelP]

Obviously not, as you are flouting them with blatant disregard to state laws as written.

If you so favor and respect legislation, how about you cease and desist?

Laws aren't being violated, exactly because they are outdated and don't consider the online channel at all. You want to regulate online retail, get your state board to update their regs.

And I'd put our product up against LensCrafters, Perle Vision, America's Best, Walmart, Costco, any day (and, be honest, most independents too). If what they're delivering is acceptable, so is online. There's always this mythical standard of excellent care discussed here that in reality is delivered by very few. If you want to crusade against online, you need to fix the average standard of care in the whole industry first.

[MichaelP]

Also, the reason online retail exists at all is because practices charge $200 for a -2.00 s.v. poly.

[drk]

Laws aren't being violated, exactly because they are outdated and don't consider the online channel at all. You want to regulate online retail, get your state board to update their regs.

Interesting legal theory! I'm sure you're right.

[drk]

If you want to crusade against online, you need to fix the average standard of care in the whole industry first.

Interesting logic! "We might be crappy, but there are crappier than us."

Hey, smart guy, how is yours "better" with "garbage in/garbage out" in mind?

Can granny get a good pd and seg height on your progressives?

Can Mr. Office get a nice pair of occupational glasses?

Can Sonny Esotrope get some *****in' flat top segs that split the pupil?

Can Zoom Landinggear screw up his binocular vision with incorrect p.d.s?

Can Myope Magoo see well with his 16mm vertex distance and vertically-imbalanced frames that his mailman dispensed to him?

Yeah, yeah, buyer beware.."These types of people shouldn't be buying online". Damn straight, but you're not going to stop them and I'm not going to stop them.

That's...what...regulation...is...for.

[drk]

Also, the reason online retail exists at all is because practices charge $200 for a -2.00 s.v. poly.

Bullcrap. Bullcrap. Bullcrap.

You are not Robin Hood.

Online customers are trying to save a buck, wittingly or unwittingly cutting out the professional care and the regulatory safeguards. Period.

[DragonLensmanWV]

Also, the reason online retail exists at all is because practices charge $200 for a -2.00 s.v. poly.

Name one.

[HarryChiling]

Harry, thanks for bringing up the ethics point here. I'd like to humbly point out that some of the suggestions posted so far are far out on the unethical extreme. How about if you dial back a bit and just say 'No, we don't provide that information' and let it go at that. I know some of this is an expression of frustration, but keep in mind that consumers *DO* have access to this forum and can and do read it.

Keep in mind that many of the onlien retailers or advocates of the retailers are teaching consumers to be sneaky and to trick the ECP into giving away information. The onliner insists that measurements and staff time in the B and M is FREE. Like it or not the B and M ECP is changing to adapt to this new enviornment and the majority are trying to come up with ways to reduce the amount of stolen labor that is plagueing the industry as a result of the onliners model. I wish they would just paste dollar bills and credit cards to their forheads and skip the B and M ECP in the whole transaction but the consumers wants their cake and they want to eat it too.

Since the majority of the patients I was seeing were aware that their may be a fee involved or that I may refuse to provide measurements or frame data, I have choosen to gather valuable marketing data from my patient before we facilitate the transaction. If they were being honest with me and truly intend to utilize my services their information is already on file and I have just enhanced their experience, however if their intent was to try and trick me into provideing frame data or measurements for FREE, then they have given me marketing data and I have in turn given them nothing. In the future if the online markets do become common place and I need to compete I have a database full of patients that have purchased online or considered it, to market too. Heck I might even say go one step further tnad take the measurements now your database has accurate fitting parameters as well as marketing data.

The tactic is being utilized by larger corporations to grow their business, I don't agree with online dispensing but I am not naive either I would suggest that every ECP hedge their bets I even know a few offices that have a e-commerce site up and ready to go withing minutes notice. The reality of the scenarion is that right now with all things considered the model poses very little threat, it is stagnant despite what numerous articles suggest. I think this past year we have seen a very effective strategy to force compliance with fear, many will succumb to the effects but enough will see through cheap parlor tricks and continue to grow their business in a more positive direction. Either way my view is I don't like it, I will put contingencies in place for the just in case scenario, and then continue to put my efforts and focus towards the true business at hand, taking care of patients and making money. For those patients that don't understand the making money part I would be glad to see them stray and even more glad when they come back.

[Jana Lewis]

Also, the reason online retail exists at all is because practices charge $200 for a -2.00 s.v. poly.

Really? Where?

[NeGlassesGirl27]

Also, the reason online retail exists at all is because practices charge $200 for a -2.00 s.v. poly.

First, I don't know where or who charges that much for a single vision poly. I don't know of many opticians who use poly for a SV poly anyways...they use Trivex.

[chip anderson]

$100.00 a lens for SV poly in -2.00? No wonder I don't make any money in this business, I've been undercharging by around
$135.00 a pair.

Chip

[Robert Martellaro]

Ever seen how much Barnes & Noble charges for DVD's? It's ridiculous.

Especially when you consider how cheap you can get a bit for bit perfect bootleg from China, on a cheap disc (that decays in one year) that's also made in China. Absolutely ridiculous.

And I hear you too, it's really frustrating to have someone come in and take up an inordinate amount of time and not buy anything.

And take that information and guidance and buy from you.

That said, applying the existing patchwork framework and outdated laws is a mess and not the way to do it.

Yes, the correct way is to prevent you from selling Rx lenses. It's coming, so make as much money as you can, while you can.

[MikeAurelius]

ummm...not supposed to list prices folks!

[MichaelP]

Bullcrap. Bullcrap. Bullcrap.

You are not Robin Hood.

Online customers are trying to save a buck, wittingly or unwittingly cutting out the professional care and the regulatory safeguards. Period.

I exaggerated, and I'm sorry if it came across as an attack on independents - I wrote quickly as an afterthought to my first post, and I honestly didn't intend it to come across that way. I've posted before many times that I do not think independents rip off their customers in any way.

What I was trying to do was bring up the point that in this industry, material cost and retail price are very far apart. That's not any different from other retail industries, but if you want to have markups like a retail business on the product, then the business model needs to be like other retail businesses: cut throat price competition. If you want to charge for your professional service (as you should), then that should be a separate and distinct charge so the consumer knows what they're paying for.

You can't on the one hand claim it's a medical device that requires expertise to be sold properly and on the other sell Dolce and Gabanna frames at $200-$400 a pop. Either you're retail, and you deal with the realities of being in a retail business, or you're medical dispensing, in which case your practice should resemble a pharmacy in terms of sales tactics, product, etc. My pharmacist doesn't steer me towards the best selling drugs in his cabinet when I come in with my prescription.

Walmart sells a complete s.v. for under $40. Most B&M's don't come close. Even if it's not online, the pricing model I think will be forced to change to clearly explain to the consumer that they are paying for licensed, professional expertise in addition to the product. If the industry wasn't so fractured in its approach, maybe online wouldn't be such an issue.

Robert: Let's say I'm an O.D. Can I sell online then? I can't think of a single product that is illegal to sell online. Pills, guns, and any other highly regulated product can be bought online. It won't get regulated away.

I do welcome regulation that prevents certain prescriptions from being filled online, that requires some type of (national) license, pre-sale warnings to the customer on what is and isn't included, and especially prescription verification. I would expect it to come with a new national requirement to provide a P.D. with the rx as a few states already require. The regulatory netherworld that online exists in currently can't continue. If contact lenses - something with greater health risks and fitting concerns - can be sold online, I doubt rx eyewear is going to face stricter regulation. I could be wrong though, and you're much more plugged in to the industry and know what's going on than me.

[MichaelP]

ummm...not supposed to list prices folks!

Retail prices are OK though, right?

[MichaelP]

That's...what...regulation...is...for.

So why isn't the discussion "what should regulation of online retail look like?" instead of "Online is bad!"

[Barry Santini]

What I was trying to do was bring up the point that in this industry, material cost and retail price are very far apart.

Yeah, it's called overhead

That's not any different from other retail industries, but if you want to have markups like a retail business on the product, then the business model needs to be like other retail businesses: cut throat price competition. If you want to charge for your professional service (as you should), then that should be a separate and distinct charge so the consumer knows what they're paying for.

Ya know, I can't think of one thing that's represented a savings or an improvement in service from the Ma Bell breakup many years ago. Maybe...just maybe, it's time to reflect upon the premise, so dear to capitalists's hearts, that price is uber alles.

You can't on the one hand claim it's a medical device that requires expertise to be sold properly and on the other sell Dolce and Gabanna frames at $200-$400 a pop. Either you're retail, and you deal with the realities of being in a retail business, or you're medical dispensing, in which case your practice should resemble a pharmacy in terms of sales tactics, product, etc. My pharmacist doesn't steer me towards the best selling drugs in his cabinet when I come in with my prescription.

Eyewear is both.


Walmart sells a complete s.v. for under $40. Most B&M's don't come close. Even if it's not online, the pricing model I think will be forced to change to clearly explain to the consumer that they are paying for licensed, professional expertise in addition to the product. If the industry wasn't so fractured in its approach, maybe online wouldn't be such an issue.

No, maybe if most B&M's didn't hire stylists or undertrained dispensing personel, and stood behind the poor quality this industry puts out as SOP, the public would be more aware of the difference. But boutique stores and the like, are, by and large, not delivering top shlef service. Most of them are boutique because of tehir clientele/location, and not because of their mission statement.



I do welcome regulation that prevents certain prescriptions from being filled online...


HOLY Jehosaphat! I know you don't mean to infer that, from a "medical" perspective, that the -1.50s (or +1.50's, for that matter), don't deserve the benefits of superior service or expertise...are you?

.

I want to thank you, Michael, for continuing to engage us here on Optiboard with an onliner's perspective. It's good to be challenged!

B

[drk]

Cutting through all the B.S., MichaelP, you are correct that, by and large (although by no means competely, although I will not argue the point) frames are "retailed". You are right. Retailing is retailing.

As to filling an Rx, online is a disaster waiting to happen. Just like controlled drugs. Just like any other illegal thing that happens on the internet.

I don't begrudge anyone selling frames on line, except my own suppliers. Have at it. Filling Rx's online, though: greedy and evil.

[Laurie]

Michael,

C'mon, for Goodness sake,

We are not talking laptops or shoes here, If I go to my dentist with a cavity, I have choices: silver filling, gold filling, ceramic filling, crown, ect..... just because there are good/better/best options, does not bring us to a 'retail-only' environment! Your analogy of designer frames is flawed. This is not a cup of coffee!

One thing I know for sure, is that when I go to my dentist, the health of my mouth is the top priority...I can choose additional options (bleaching, for example), for cosmetics/fashion, I know that health is on the top of the list. The Online Model (seperating patients from ECP's)...tempting our patients/consumers away from their Eyecare Professional is not in their best interest....



No, we are not neuro-surgeons, however, DRK stated it best...

How about a school bus driver, who, out of price-saving efforts, gives themselves an extra bit of sauce (self-prescribes) and is driving our children around? How about the horizontal/vertical diplopia from incorrect OC placements, how about guestimating fiting heights for a PAL? REALLY?

There is no virtual instrument that can SUBJECTIVELY discern if a frame actually fits the nose! C'Mon, I think people are in lala land to think that this model is in the best interest, or even acceptable, for our patient/client/ consumer... I would rather pay additional income taxes and get those who need real eye-health care accessiblilty (another thread!) : )

Give me a break.

[finefocus]

The whole online vs. b&m thing will resolve soon.
It isn't just the optical industry.

My practice manager tries on shoes at Nordstrom then buys them on line. People go to Best Buy to see BlueRay players, pick the brains of the staff, then order on line. People go to Borders to leaf through books (and read magazines for free by the hour) then order online. Hardware. Tools. Clothes. Everything you can think of that will fit into a box.
The irony is that the off-price retailers are the ones who undercut the local merchant, who made sure that a local guy trying to make a living on Main Street USA couldn't do it. Now, hoist on their own petard, they are being used as the showroom and sales staff for onliners, who not only add no value to what they sell, but expect existing businesses to do it for them. Best Buy is having trouble. Borders is a goner. Soon, the buying public will have no local merchants, even chains, to see and try stuff. In the optical industry, no proper fitting and all the other things mentioned many times here, meaning lousy glasses and lousy results, and loads of dissatisfaction.

A cheap-suit-cheap is what people want; soon it will be all they can get.

[finefocus]

Another thing just happened to confirm the future. The boyfriend of one of our techs saw a sunglass on the web, asked us to order one for him. Naturally, he didn't like it once he saw it. Now he's back with two more models (which we don't stock) he would like to see. For an employee, I'll do it one more time, but the shipping both ways and the time and trouble would be too much normally. This is what customers will want when the only distribution model is online.

So Michael, would you accept a return on this? Would you send a couple more pair on spec? How will you handle this when you don't have retail people to stock things for local try-on?