Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein
This whole thread has gone haywire about this PD thing ……..to charge……..to not to charge…………..or not do it at all.
To be an Optician is to have an honorable profession that has been around a few hundred years and was always known to be a good money making profession. Self employed opticians have never been or become super rich but always been financially comfortable.
It has been a well known fact that optician used to make a XXX% gross profit on glasses sold in their BM stores.
This was due to having a lab or workshop in the back of the store. Having drawers full of single vision stock lenses, having drawers full of 2 to 3 types of spherical bifocals was normal. Also having of most frames a stock of better selling frames in all different colors and sizes. To make it short the optician only had to order cylindrical multi focal lenses form an outside lab.
When a pair of glasses was sold it went through the stock room and into the workshop where it was processed. The odd lens breakage or frames damage was a standard happening and had to get replaced. The Optician actually did sell a semi finished product to his customers. It used to be an international standard that an optician would sell 3 pairs of new glasses per day, per person working in that store. 4 people = 12 pairs of new glasses.
The profit calculation has forever been Xx the net cost of the material including also broken lens replacements. There used to be no warranties besides the ones for faulty quality defects. You broke a lens you paid for the replacement.
Today where a large part of the optical retail community does not even know how to make a pair of glasses and farms everything out to the labs and makes them warranty everything for a year or two. No warranty is free in this world, you pay for it out front, and therefore the labs are charging way more than they should.
Frames as well as lenses that used to cost a certain amount 10 to 15 years ago are having a value of close to 10 times less than 15 years ago when leaving the factories. Wholesalers and distributors are still selling their frames and lenses for more than they did 15 years ago, while they cost 10 times less to make today.
All this has evolved by optical retailers leaving a well established routine of keeping stock and working on their products, and becoming order takers and farming all work out to laboratories, but still charging the price of times X, as they have done forever.
On line retailers do purchase their goods and labor not on this continent. The easiest and least expensive place would be China where most of these products now originate and can be obtained at the lowest prices. So the online retailer can very easily also calculate a price factor of xX and be at the level they are. They do bet on quantity sales and are getting them more and more while the regular profession is pricing itself out of the market.
Until a solution is found to reverse this trend, opticians should not refuse another source of income for work they can do. Cooperate by charging the time for services to the ones that are willing to pay for it.
Last edited by hcjilson; 01-24-2011 at 12:02 PM. Reason: removed numbers indicating markups
I wish I could get XX on everything, then I'd be in better shape!
Last edited by hcjilson; 01-24-2011 at 12:04 PM. Reason: removed number indicating markup
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
I've already made myself abundantly clear how charging for services, a la carte, is consistent with explaining how online eyewear is "unbundled" from the accompanying services (and hopefully expertise) of B&M ecps.
Xx market up on finished goods? What's the old expression?
"...pigs get slaughtered!"
B
Last edited by hcjilson; 01-24-2011 at 03:09 PM. Reason: removed number
Isn't posting markup percentages essentially the same thing as posting wholesale prices??? I'd be grateful, Chris, if you'd take those numbers down.
I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.
I think AngeHamm has a point, however anyone familiar with retail is aware that products are marked up over material costs so I was tempted to let it slide. I noticed Chris was careful to restrict his remarks in a historical context but none the less I edited lest some errant consumer get the wrong impression, particularly after Barry's remark loosely comparing some optical people to a barnyard animal species.
All of this brewhaha could be avoided by doing as many professional practices have done. I'll say it again. FEE FOR SERVICE, PLUS COST OF MATERIALS. If the industry were to do this as a standard, most of us would be remunerated for a lot that we do for no charge today. I don't see that it's unethical, or a rip off, to charge for my time and expertise.
Gratefully, someone has rightfully put the liability issue in it's proper place....the wastebasket.
"Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
Lord Byron
Take a photo tour of Cape Cod and the Islands!
www.capecodphotoalbum.com
"Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
Lord Byron
Take a photo tour of Cape Cod and the Islands!
www.capecodphotoalbum.com
here's a first today: a patient was with her son, and wanted to know why dr didn't write the pd on the rx. I explained that it's the job of the person making the glasses to take the measurements. So she stands up, looks at my pd that I wrote for her son, and smiles to herself like "aha, I've found a treasure".
Patients are something else aren't they? I had a patient get mad at me because they came in on Saturday, the son wanted a Nike frame (Different size and color than I had here naturally). Fine and dandy. I tried to order it in today and of course it's on a one month back order. "You NEVER told me it would be on a back order. I made a mistake coming in on a Saturday. I guess I should go somewhere else that can get me my son's frame earlier than a month..this is just ridiculous you couldn't tell me this information. You said it was going to be a week!"
A) My apologies I can't see into the future from Saturday to Monday
B) No. You didn't make a mistake coming in on a Saturday. Had your son chose the frame we had here instead of wanting a different color, it would be 7-10 working days.
C) Sure. Go ahead and use your VSP at Wal-Mart as you said you could get them in "one hour" Oh that's right..you can't.
D) You came in on a Saturday. Manufacturers are closed on the weekend and I always tell the patient "IF the frame is NOT on a back order..the glasses take about a week to arrive"
Naturally, she asked for his RX and for VSP to cancel the order etc. So I did that and couldn't figure out why the measurements I took were not on the RX. I told her, "If you're going somewhere else, they would be happy to do that 10 second measurement in their office." :angry: :angry:
Yeah, I like the patient that is basically a discount program, like VSP, ask to order a frame in to see. AND, when you call them that it is in , tell you , oh I have purchased glasses elsewhere. Or , after ordering numerous frames for them to look at, again VSP, want you to order a new frame , not the one you ordered in, for the final Rx.
We can't be cowed into accepting the premise that "p.d.s" are the only thing standing between a patient with a copy of their prescription and nirvana.
P.d. is only one of several position of wear measurements. Don't buy into the idea that it's all about the p.d., because it's not.
Ironically, Barry has written a good position of wear article in this months 20/20 magazine http://www.2020mag.com/LT/ViewLTIssu...0/Default.aspx .
It's not about the p.d. It's about lens design, which includes Rx compensation for POW.
BTW, there's no freaking reason that you have to write p.d. in the records in millimeters. It could be in centimeters, such as 3.2. It could be in code, such as 32= cb. If people are going to steal information, then we have to protect it.
Chris Beard
The State of Jefferson !
I'm a Medford man – Medford, Oregon. Up in Medford, we take our time making up our minds."
From the article:
And by negative inference, less strong prescriptions and low cyl's do not benefit from POW measurements. Also, really, how many brick and mortar places are doing these measurements? By virtue of that article existing at all, making the case for POW measurements, it's clear very few are. And how many are dispensing freeform s.v. lenses? DrK, do all of your customers walk out the door with POW compensated freeform lenses?Do single vision lenses benefit from position of wear compensation? You bet! Stronger prescriptions, those with moderate to greater cylinder power and fitting situations where the client’s pupil is significantly above the mechanical center all greatly benefit from POW optimization.
I think it's a brilliant idea for ECPs to differentiate themselves from online by offering freeform lenses (using actual POW measurements and not the estimates). Seriously. But DrK, you seem to be suggesting that those who buy online are giving up some level of necessary care. You've got to compare apples to apples: what is the patient currently getting in terms of care, versus what can they get online?
There is no more free form only at BM store, it has hit the on-line business which is offering it, just about by everyone.:
http://www.framesdirect.com/framesfc/Free_Form-lamjog-pr-l.html
http://www.bestbuyeyeglasses.com/free-form-eyeglasses.html
http://www.globaleyeglasses.net/why-should-we-choose-free-form-progressive-glasses.html
http://www.onlineglassesdirect.co.uk/ourblog/forum/choosing-varifocal-lenses/what-are-free-form-lenses/
http://www.prescriptionglassesonline.net/cheapglasses/?help212.html
http://forums.glassesadvisor.com/showthread.php?t=9801
Last edited by Barry Santini; 01-25-2011 at 09:16 AM.
Here's the beauty, Michael. All my PATIENTS walk out the door with lenses they can see with. If they NEED POW, I give it to them. If they don't, then I use "defaults". How many of your CUSTOMERS get the benefit of a professional making sure that they get the proper POW? NONE.
I'm not making a living based on freeform lenses, nor is that a brilliant strategy. It's a dumb one.I think it's a brilliant idea for ECPs to differentiate themselves from online by offering freeform lenses (using actual POW measurements and not the estimates).
I'm "differentiating myself" just by being what I am. A professional. A doctor. A knowledgeable, tangible, trustworthy person. You know, like most real-life opticians. UNLIKE the online pirates on the ship Lady Profiteer who offer D-I-Y.
And THAT'S the answer to your last question:
Seriously. But DrK, you seem to be suggesting that those who buy online are giving up some level of necessary care. You've got to compare apples to apples: what is the patient currently getting in terms of care, versus what can they get online
Is this even a real question?But DrK, you seem to be suggesting that those who buy online are giving up some level of necessary care. You've got to compare apples to apples: what is the patient currently getting in terms of care, versus what can they get online?
And another thing about POW for those who don't have the knowledge base to understand it:
POW is not new. It's not esoteric. We've been ordering frames with standard face form forever. We've been dropping OCs 3-4 mm forever. We've been assuming regular vertex distance forever. We've been assuming coplanar lenses forever.
Now, when a real optician selects a frame for a person that's -9.00 who has a beak and deep-set eyes that leaves a visibly longer vertex distance, then the optician will consider vertex compensation. Or, simply at dispense, the optician will minimize vertex distance. Or whatever the optician's professional judgement dictates.
And if lady low-ear has zero degrees pantoscopic tilt, then the optical professional need not lower the level MRP, and may well recommend a different frame.
I cracks me up to hear people who don't know jack-squat about optics or dispensing come on here an tell me something that they think I don't know. A sure sign of a fool is someone who doesn't know what they don't know.
No. :) I'll admit, my post was designed to tweak DrK and elicit the response from Barry that it did (thank you both for thoughtful responses).
Anyway, you'll hear no argument from me that a skilled ECP doesn't provide value. I know y'all do, which is why I kind of think these threads about online are a lot of bark and not much bite. To me (an onliner), I don't think we're a threat to you (VSP getting into the game is a whole 'nother story for practices dependent on them though). You get asked about an occasional P.D., maybe the pricing changes so it's fee for services + materials cost, but your customers aren't going anywhere. Your patients will keep coming back for the skilled professional service you provide. Like others have been saying, your customers are not my customers.
The only practices that should worry about online are those that don't provide skilled, professional service. And that was my point: there are lots and lots of these.
Michael, you don't know VSP very well, do you.
How soon are the member labs cut out? How soon is online "another choice for you as a valued member of VSP"?
VSP doesn't need member labs, they have their own.
It's quite possible that they will reduce our reimbursement for opticals services.
I told everyone here that the issue is not whether online will survive in a free market...it wouldn't. But it can survive and thrive in a non-free market. It could very well lessen consumer choice greatly by putting mom and pop out of business.
Think about that when you pull off the freeway to yet another McDonald's. How enjoyable to eat Big Macs from Alabama to Michigan.
Please think this over.
Sorry, DrK, I think my comment about VSP was misunderstood. What I meant by it was that I think VSP having their own website to sell direct to their insured is a significant threat to any practice that relies heavily on VSP. It's only a matter of time before they start to push their insureds to their site, reduce benefits if they don't go online, etc.
Your road trip food analogy is actually pretty good. I read an article about this a few months ago. Before McDonald's, roadside diners were horrible. Because they knew they wouldn't see you again, they provided bad service, crappy food, and just made sure they had the biggest billboard. McDonald's improved that: you could have the same meal with smiling service no matter where you were on the road.
Was there the occasional exceptional roadside diner? Sure. But they were few and far between. Most of the time, the food was overpriced and the service was barely there.
I don't precede the interstate highway system. Maybe you did, or maybe you're reading McRevisionist McHistory.
I'm sure internet companies are looking out for repeat business
VSP is going to get theirs, eventually. In the meantime, if they want to offer their members online service, there's not a darn thing anyone can do to stop them.
However, it still will be competitive to sell $59 any-powers-you-choose-glasses-from-God-knows-where, so you needn't worry.
Until you realize your profit margins are crap, like most internet companies do, and go belly-up.
But hey, the Chinese will do just fine!
Bullcrap, Barry.
You're saying that people running for the lowest possible price at the expense of all other considerations is an indictment of eyecare professionals?
Give me a break.
I suppose that you can give me an example of an industry where people AREN'T rushing headlong to save a dollar at any cost?
If you think this is "just desserts" for the eyecare industry, you're wrong. Competition is good--as long as it's fair competition. This junk is not fair competition, assuming we wished to lower ourselves into the cesspool of crass hucksterism by non-professionals.
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