Hi all,
I can think of no better place to set up a discussion about digital designs, what makes them different, what makes them the same, and whatever else you can think of! Be as general or as specific as you like, and if you want your questions to come anonymously just PM me and Ill post the question and answer for everyone to see. My thought behind this thread is to provide information on this new technology so we can all learn, after all, unshared knowledge is wasted knowledge!!!!
Well, I know who you are, what you do, and why you're qualified to answer questions on the subject, but perhapse you could go a brief intro/bio of yourself and your company for everyone else :D.
There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.
haha sounds like a good idea, and Ill do that here in one minute but I want this to be an open conversation, please anyone and everyone chime in!!
Im Kurt Gardner, I represent IOT in the Americas, IOT was founded by three PhD optical physicists from the University of Madrid, our company serves as a independent lens design house, specializing in digital design. Early in 2010 IOT was partially purchased by Younger Optics. We strive to be the easiest design company to work with! My background is that of a kid who made his first pair of glasses before he could legally drive a car, became a licensed optician in New York, and South Carolina, ran Optical labs, worked in consumables, and made my way to combining my passion for this industry, with my passion for tech, and gadgets by representing IOT as a technical resource, and whatever anyone needs from IOT here in the Americas. Between, what I know and the resources at my disposal we have the knowledge base to answer most questions and work on solutions to any that we havent encountered!!
Again, LETS HAVE A FREE FLOW OF INFORMATION!!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BAD QUESTION!!!!!
What are digital lenses?
Can you do custom design??
How difficult (if at all) is it to incorporate slab-off's into Free Form design?
I've asked both Seiko and Shamir if it could be done and Seiko said "no" and Shamir said "we've thought about it but there isn't engough demand."
@Fezz - don't make me come over there :p
There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.
Ding ding ding... This is pissing me off to no end.Originally Posted by WFruit
Me or the slab off issue?
I thought he meant me....
If it's the slab-off issue, I'm sure it can be done. I haven't checked with ICE-TECH about it.
On a full back side progressive, it would require that the prism be integrated into the design on the back.....Unless you did the prism on the front......
There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.
Well, fezz pisses me off, but doesn't he do that to everyone? I keeed i keed!!!
It's just that the people that seem as if they would be able to gain the most from FF tech don't have it available to them.
It can be done, it's programming and considering that prism is nothing but tilting the surface of the lens as long as a domain can be specified (where the slab start) and the amount of tilt can be specified (the about of prism to apply) the programming can more than likely be done with a few lines of code.
1st* HTML5 Tracer Software
1st Mac Compatible Tracer Software
1st Linux Compatible Tracer Software
*Dave at OptiVision has a web based tracer integration package that's awesome.
Could you explain point files and the hows and why of them?
Hi Y'all,
In regard to FF/Slab-Off,
two ideas:
One (more math involved), use two variable/fixed transitional zone PALs with the same design philosophy, and calculate, the way you would 'compensating for vertical imbalance at near by use of dissimilar segs', choose two that have the mm difference in transitional zone, and place the one which begins the intermediate and add at the highest level in the most minus at 90 degree meridian lens.
Or...
Contact Three Rivers (no, I do not work, nor have any financial stake in their lab)...the manager made me a pair of ff PALs that corrected VI at near with a blended slab-line.
I am trying to recall if, they put the Reverse Slab Line, BD prism on the front surface and the Conventional Slab Line, BU prism on the back surface,
or,
Both slabs (blended) on the back...will have to dig them out again and report back here. I think they did it with both on the back surface, placing 1/2 BD in the most plus at 90 and 1/2 BU in the most minus at 90 lens.
When you hold it to a grid, you can see the lines, however, when worn on the face, the lines disappear.
Hope that helps,
And, Fezzy, not to jump in too much here, but X, Y Z file points means that the ff generating tool/device can cut back and forth (x) up and down (y) and in and out (z). Because of this new capability of Z axis cut, we can now go in and out... If we can cut in this plane, we can create curvature and depth. If we can create curvature and depth, we can create a complex design/topography on a single surface.
You knew that already, just chiming in.
: )
Laurie
In direct surfaceing a Lens Management System (LMS, in Luzernes case this is a reference to our DVI lab software) communicates prescription data, frame data, and biometric data to the Lens Design System (LDS, in the case of creating an Autograph it's the Prescriptor softwar) the LDS software takes this data and creates a file called a Surface Definition File (SDF, commonly refered to as a points file). This SDF file is a representation of a matrix of points on the lens.
For instance if we wanted to create SDF that represents a right lens back surface that's 40mm wide and 40 mm high with points defined in 1mm increments the first line in the file would read:
SURFMT= 1;R;B;41;41;40;40;1
The first piece of data in that line "1" represents the current stardard in the format of the data, in the future their may be more data formats or ways to represent the surface.
The second "R" tells the generator that this is a right lens this is important since the first set of points will start from left to right and bottom to top, so a right lens will start the at the bottom most nasal point where the left will start at the temporal bottom point.
The third "B" lens the generator know that this file represents the back surface.
The fourth "41" represents the width in points, the fifth "41" represents the height in points that will be described across the lens surface. It is important to note that if it is the intention of the software and designer to specify the center point of the lens then an uneven number should be chosen.
The sixth and seventh "40" represent the width and height in mm that the matrix of points will represent.
The eighth piece of data "0" represents the slope of the surface. This can be left off or set to zero if the slope is not supplied, if the slope is to be supplied this value would be set to "1" to specify that additional slope records will be supplied after the matrix records.
So now that we know how to specify what our record is going to look like we're going to have to put data into it. That's were the the following lins of code int he SDF file come into play.
ZZ=1.00000;2.00000;1.50003;?;?;2.00003,...
The ellipses are not part of the record, they just indicate that the record goes on. One again the record starts with a definition for a right lens at the most nasal bottom potision and the left lens at the most temporal bottom portion and works it's way from left to right from top to bottom with each "ZZ" record representing a rown and each piece of data seperated by a ";" as the surface height in reference to the center of the lens which should always be set to zero "0". The number of data points in a row must correspond to the number of points we specify in the width of the SURFMT line, in our previous example that's 41, the number of ZZ records must also be the same as specified in the SURFMT line. The ZZ records can include ? when data is either not available or not computed but should not be left empty.
If the last piece of data on the SURFMT record is set to "1", then we will be supplying the slope data for the lens after the lens matrix data has been defined. The slope will be defined with three types of records dXdZ, dYdZ, and dXdYdZ, with the first line DZY defining the slope starting along the bottom row of the lens matrix and going across for every column of data supplied then followed by the slope for the top row for every column. So the DZY record will have twice the number of data as the ZZ records contain data. The next definition is for the slope along the sides of the lens matrix DZX which will have the twice the number of data as their are ZZ records, this will start with the left side of the lens matrix and the the right. The final slope data supplied is going to be the DZXY which will have 4 pieces of data within it to define the slope at the corners of the lens matrix. Starting with the left bottom, then left top, then right bottom, and finally defining the right top.
So a complete records would look similar to this:
SURFMT= 1;R;B;41;41;40;40;1
ZZ=1.00000;2.00000;1.50003;?;?;2.00003,...(41, semicolon seperated data points in total)
ZZ=1.00000;2.00000;1.50003;?;?;2.00003,...
ZZ=1.00000;2.00000;1.50003;?;?;2.00003,...
...(41, ZZ records in total)
DZY=0.2345678;0.234569;0.2345678;... (82, data points representing the slope across the the bottom and top of the lens matrix)
DZX=0.2345678;0.234569;0.2345678;... (82, data points representing the slope across the left side and right side of the lens matrix)
DZXY=0.2345678;0.234569;0.2345678;0.2345678 (4, data points representing the slope at the corners of the lens matrix bottom left, top left, bottom right, top right)
This will be contained in a file 12345.SDF that the generator will use to create the surface, the name of the file being the job identifier.
1st* HTML5 Tracer Software
1st Mac Compatible Tracer Software
1st Linux Compatible Tracer Software
*Dave at OptiVision has a web based tracer integration package that's awesome.
Slab-off is such a small percentage of Rx's. It shouldn't be a concern when considering modern design lenses.
Where do you see digital proccessing and lens design going in the next five years?
I see a total price war on the horizon! I am already getting info and promo pricing for way less than conventional PAL designs.
Beware of price!
These indie and other labs doing free form still have learning curves to master, newer and more expensive investments to make in on ongoing manner, and new challenges almost everday, just like we all face.
Make no mistake: state of the art free form processing is not a packaged can of tuna.
We've stopped using a national big,big company lab because they were so inept at FF processing.
Sure their prices were low. But their inability to address any problems we experienced was theend of me being woo'd by cheap
Barry
Last edited by Barry Santini; 10-29-2010 at 02:18 PM.
I disagree. Small percentage or no, why should someone be deprived of better lenses just because they need a slab-off? I've had to tell three accounts so far that we can't do it, and in my view that's four too many.
I think we're going to see more of this as more and more "generic" Free Form becomes available. I've seen at least two companies now offering back side progressive Free Form software for just a one time purchase with no recurring click fees. This is enabling labs to process and create their own Free Form lenses without having to go to the larger lens companies.Beware of price!
These indie and other labs doing free form still have learning curves to master, newer and more expensive investments to make in an ongoing manner, and new challenges almost everday, just the way we all do.
Make no mistake: state of the art free form processing is not a package can of tuna.
We've stopped using a national big big company lab because they were so inept at FF processing.
Sure they're prices were low. But their inability to address at all problems we experienced was my end of being woo'd by cheap.
Are these lenses Free Form? Yes. How good are they in terms of design and ease of wear? Who knows. Just as it is now, there will be some people who only focus on price and some who focus on quality. And of course, the winner will be the one who can combine the two.
There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.
Have you gone mad man? I think you're mistaking slab-off for prism thinning ... and both are equally important with any lens
Hey folks this is an awesome response!! Ive been out meeting with some of you the last few days, but will respond to the unanswered questions by the end of the weekend Happy Halloweeen!!!!
You lost me about there - just jiving Harry - great response, and love the gunslinger emoticon.
The definition for "digital lenses" varies depending on who you ask. The broadest definition is any lens ground using a complex or "digital" generator, and polisher. This would include if you ran simple curves on a existing progressive. For the sake of our discussions I would call it any lens that uses single backside design characteristics to define the rx. This would include all optimized or non optimized lenses run using a spherical front surface.
Me personally?? no...but IOT (the guys is Spain) spend a lot of time designing new lenses, we do custom and exclusive design work on a regular basis, whether modifying one of our existing designs to better suit a customers needs, or building a new design from the ground up. If your interested in that stuff let me know and ill get you the specifics!
I have to be honest I havent been hit with that one yet. I will send off an email and post the response as soon as I get it.
I dont see the designs changing that much on the single surface methodologies much because these designs regardless of manufacture are already right at the efficiency of the laws of physics. Now if we we add curves to both sides...thats the future, As far as process, it will only get faster and more affordable (sorry to any non lab guys out there but a table top digital generator is not right around the corner)
As far as pricing, I cant comment on that part because Im not involved in any pricing from the lab to its customers, but what I can say is that to make the leap to be able to produce these lenses is a very costly undertaking, and none of us are volunteers so I would consider the "promo pricing" to be exactly that, and introductory value to show you how great this technology is and the benefits to your clientele.
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