Reducing the deficit

[For-Life]

Are you suggesting that only 3% will operate outside of the US? Or 3% tax increase? This is where I think you and I are going to disagree but I believe that the corporate tax rate needs to drop to at least 25% if not 20% before you're going to see the private sector really expand and open up the job market. That's how you get people back to work and I believe it was you who in a previous thread said that it's those types of employees who spend wages rather than save.

I have a friend in the garage door business who lives a decent life but nothing like I think you have in mind. I'll have to ask him what he thinks about all of this. But I can tell you that he's struggling pretty good right now which leads me to believe that his employees are feeling it too.

3% tax increase. Remember, corporate tax rates are ONLY paid on profits, and not revenue. You have to be profitable to be taxed. Corporations pay salaries out of revenues, and not profits. Profits come after salaries.

Here is the thing. You can cut taxes all you want, but if there is no additional demand, you will not see additional employment. Take your business, for instance. Do you think lowering the taxes and not increasing clients will have a better chance of bringing in new employees, or will bringing in new clients who spend more dollars bring in more employees? You need to create demand for services, and thus, you need consumers to spend. That is why temporary government spending works much better than tax cuts.

Now, we would all love taxes to be non-existent. But keep in mind, that is not very possible. Reagan dropped the income taxes for corporations in the 1980s. He cut them from about 70% to about 35%. It did have an effect. Why? Well 70% was way too much, and it was such a cut that it did bring in business. But it also quadraupled the deficit. The American treasury cannot handle more deficit. You cut the corporate tax rate by 25% and the government will go bankrupt.

It is like a person who is virtually bankrupt asking for a $500,000 loan to make it big. The system just cannot handle it.

The responsible thing to do is:
- Eliminate the deficit
- Build surpluses
- Pay down the debt
- Then lower taxes.

But right now, too much of your tax dollars are being put toward interest on the debt. It is essentially burning your money. Once you eliminate the debt, then you can put that interest rate toward tax cuts.

[MasterCrafter]

3% tax increase. Remember, corporate tax rates are ONLY paid on profits, and not revenue. You have to be profitable to be taxed. Corporations pay salaries out of revenues, and not profits. Profits come after salaries.

keep in mind though.... they pass those corporate taxes on to us.. once again

[eyeguy21]

The responsible thing to do is:
- Eliminate the deficit
- Build surpluses
- Pay down the debt
- Then lower taxes.

But right now, too much of your tax dollars are being put toward interest on the debt. It is essentially burning your money. Once you eliminate the debt, then you can put that interest rate toward tax cuts.

Obviously I believe we need to reduce the deficit, pay down debt build surpluses etc. But the problem for me and where I think our differences are is that I believe for the most part in self reliance and small government. I hear a lot of talk about Medicare, SS, Welfare, unemployment etc coming from the left side of the isle so if you want to talk about something the system just can't handle you have to look at entitlements which is where I think you have to start. I just think (which is why I'm aligning with Republicans this cycle) that this is absolutely the wrong time to raise taxes period.

Dennis Miller said it best and I completely agree with him. I want to help the helpless but I don't care about the clueless. Reel in wreckless spending on all of this craziness first then talk to me about raising taxes.

[eyeguy21]

keep in mind though.... they pass those corporate taxes on to us.. once again

Yeah, that too!

[For-Life]

keep in mind though.... they pass those corporate taxes on to us.. once again

Taxes come after profits, not before. Taxes are expenses, only after the sale is made.

Plus, the lower the Corporate Tax rates, that just means they have to get the tax revenues from somewhere else. That means shifting the taxes onto your income taxes or a Value Added Tax.

[For-Life]

Obviously I believe we need to reduce the deficit, pay down debt build surpluses etc. But the problem for me and where I think our differences are is that I believe for the most part in self reliance and small government. I hear a lot of talk about Medicare, SS, Welfare, unemployment etc coming from the left side of the isle so if you want to talk about something the system just can't handle you have to look at entitlements which is where I think you have to start. I just think (which is why I'm aligning with Republicans this cycle) that this is absolutely the wrong time to raise taxes period.

Dennis Miller said it best and I completely agree with him. I want to help the helpless but I don't care about the clueless. Reel in wreckless spending on all of this craziness first then talk to me about raising taxes.

You can only cut so much of social security though. Do you believe that someone who cannot physically work (disabled) should be thrown out on the streets? Look at your criminals out there. I guarantee you that 75% of the criminals have mental health or substance abuse problems, or are in the lines of poverty. You increase those numbers, and crime will go up. Crime goes up, and there goes the cost of the police force.


Fine, punish the clueless and the lazy people. But what percent of welfare do you really think that is? Certainly not enough to balance the budget. Certainly not enough to not prevent other costs from going up. Then, after that, you are just eliminating public servant jobs. You are increasing unemployment, which then lowers the tax revenues coming in and increases the welfare. It is a viscous cycle.

If you want to balance the budget, you have to raise taxes AND cut spending.



You cannot ask citizens to be more responsible and then further pile on the debt of the government because you do not want to raise taxes. That is like if I am spending $1000 more a month than I can afford. I can cut my spending, but if I can only afford to cut my spending by $500, I am still increasing my debt by $500. Thus, I need to find a second job.


Increase revenue and cut expenses. It is the only responsible action.

[Uncle Fester]

Obviously I believe we need to reduce the deficit, pay down debt build surpluses etc. But the problem for me and where I think our differences are is that I believe for the most part in self reliance and small government. I hear a lot of talk about Medicare, SS, Welfare, unemployment etc coming from the left side of the isle so if you want to talk about something the system just can't handle you have to look at entitlements which is where I think you have to start. I just think (which is why I'm aligning with Republicans this cycle) that this is absolutely the wrong time to raise taxes period.

Dennis Miller said it best and I completely agree with him. I want to help the helpless but I don't care about the clueless. Reel in reckless spending on all of this craziness first then talk to me about raising taxes.

So where will the Republicans cut reckless spending? Where will the entitlements be cut? All I here on the EIB network and FOX are broad generalizations. Where are the specifics?

I predict all we'll see is a kicking of the can down the road as the deficit keeps ballooning.

[MasterCrafter]

Plus, the lower the Corporate Tax rates, that just means they have to get the tax revenues from somewhere else. That means shifting the taxes onto your income taxes or a Value Added Tax.

No thats where your wrong. The taxes do not have to come from somewhere. They need to cut entitlements and streamline the govt.

Since Obama has taken office the federal govt has grown almost 25%. Under Bush the govt also grew. These are the kind of hacks we dont need in office.

[For-Life]

No thats where your wrong. The taxes do not have to come from somewhere. They need to cut entitlements and streamline the govt.

Since Obama has taken office the federal govt has grown almost 25%. Under Bush the govt also grew. These are the kind of hacks we dont need in office.

Since Obama has entered office (and for the last year of Bush's term) expenditures went up. This is true. But they most were temporarily up. These were short term stimulus programs. Social spending went up, but that is because people lost their jobs. When you lose your job, you go on unemployment insurance for a certain period. You cannot stay on unemployment insurance forever. I think the time length is one year. That makes sense, because it takes a while to find a new job (for me, a minimum of a month, a max of 6 when I have applied).

Tax revenues went down, because people were not working and corporations were not profitable.

So the increase in deficit was not due to policy, but due to a short term situation. That has to be understood.


BUT EVERN SO, before 2008, the government was still taking in way less revenue than it had in expenditures. You cannot cut expenditures enough to balance the budget.


Thus, you have to do the responsible thing. So unless you want to kill the military, stop paving roads, and stop clean water from entering your tap, you will have government expenditures.

[MasterCrafter]

Since Obama has entered office (and for the last year of Bush's term) expenditures went up. This is true. But they most were temporarily up. These were short term stimulus programs. Social spending went up, but that is because people lost their jobs. When you lose your job, you go on unemployment insurance for a certain period. You cannot stay on unemployment insurance forever. I think the time length is one year. That makes sense, because it takes a while to find a new job (for me, a minimum of a month, a max of 6 when I have applied).

The dems have extended unemployment a few times. I know a few people who have been recieving it for over 3 years now. When does it stop?

[k12311997]

[QUOTE=Spexvet;364619]Liberals ARE "the people". Conservatives are businesses and greedy snobs.

{QUOTE]

one of these days I'll learn not to respond oh well. Spex look where the money comes from , Liberals are supported (largely) by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporations on the planet Conservatives are supported (largely) by us poor gun totin' God fearn' average people.

[For-Life]

The dems have extended unemployment a few times. I know a few people who have been recieving it for over 3 years now. When does it stop?

When there are jobs.


Now, you talk about tax cuts. If you really wanted to increase jobs and make the situation more attractive to corporations, you would encouraged a Universal Health Insurance plan. I know situations where the Detroit car companies were setting up shop in Canada, because it was cheaper since they did not have to pay the mega insurance costs.

[MasterCrafter]

When there are jobs.


Now, you talk about tax cuts. If you really wanted to increase jobs and make the situation more attractive to corporations, you would encouraged a Universal Health Insurance plan. I know situations where the Detroit car companies were setting up shop in Canada, because it was cheaper since they did not have to pay the mega insurance costs.

Universal Health Care is not the answer. Right now alot of EU countries are trying to back out of thier Uni Health care systems. You know why? Because they realize its not working. Its a pipe dream.

In Canada there were some politicians there who were instrumental in setting up Universal Health Care and then ended up coming to the US to save thier own butts when they got sick. You know why? Because they are rich and dont believe in thier own systems they designed. Many Canadian people come across the border for care because they are waiting too long to be seen.

In England thier system is straight up barbaric.

[Jubilee]

Go look at the documents and lives of the founding fathers and their view about God! You cannot seperate a man from what he believes, and when a man says he does not believe in God that is a religion also! it is called Humanism. The Bible was where they got the system and order of government to FYI.

Not because they disagree with me, They disagree with History! They are trying to change it why should I listen to their lies?

They deny that all men are created equal, they deny that an unborn baby is a human life, Two very basic truths in which liberals deny. One that gets me is that "We are a democracy." NO we are a Republic! The mob does not rule, (Democracy); under a Republic it is the law of the land in which dictates to us how things will be and the laws are made by the people and for the people.

I never heard of a revolution by the republicans over the last election, I did hear about some threats if Obama did not win that were made by some people! but it does not surprise me that some said the same if he won! People are stupid!

No revolution from the Republicans but when the Federal government is the one who says how many chidlren you can have, how much money you can make and keep, what kind of car you will drive, and they control everything you do I believe that will surprise a lot of people!

enjoyed the discussion!

The whole idea is the separation of church and state. One reason why our ancestors came to this continent and formed this nation was due to the persecution they were receiving from the English. We are one nation under God. Be that your God, or my God.. Jacqui's Goddess, or Andrew's Buddhism.. the idea is that we all can worship who and how we see fit.

However, can I ask, what is your position on the mosque near the World Trade Center?

[Jubilee]

Oh boy.. Universal health care...

Did you realize that GM spent more money on providing health care to their employees than they did on steel for their cars?

Here's the issue with our system...

Yes, we have some of the greatest innovators, medical professionals, technology in the world. We also spend way more money for less results than many of our industrialized nations. The biggest issue is money. You got to pay in order to play.

I am not sure how many times you have been to the ER.. but it is nothing like what you see on many of the medical shows. They don't hold you there if it is not immediately life threatening (Hell I was diagnosed as having blood clots, given some thinners.. sent home to recover and told to come back if things get worse. Contact my physician for a follow up. This while having Fed benefits thanks to my honey working for the VA!)

They access your situation. If you have a good chance of making it w/o their intervention.. then you are to take things up with your own doctor. What's that? You don't have money for one? Then here's the number for our financial specialists who can help you make arrangements.

You think that if you have cancer they will hold you and treat you? Nope. They will make sure you are stable enough that you can leave.. and then its up to you to get the money to be able to start the treatment.

We have people who put off going to the doctor because they can't afford it. They then develop worse case scenarios, and require more expensive intervention, if they live.

Perhaps we could reduce some of those people on disability if we made it easier for people to get checked out for diabetes, heart disease, and participate in more routine screenings.

What about all the small businesses that don't offer their employees health insurance?

What about the doctor I work for who lost his when he had a heart attack after paying everyone one of his premiums for the past 10 years with very little claims. However, they now say he lied cause he should have known more about his family's health history?!?

Many of us already pay thousands of dollars a year for coverage. Whether that coverage comes from Anthem, or from the fed.. I don't care. I just want to know it is there for when I need it and will continue to be at an affordable rate. Personally I think a good compromise is to have something akin to the Medicare Advantage programs. While a bit costlier than traditional Medicare, it does also introduce competition by allowing the private insurance industry to share some of the risk with the fed. They get a set amount to manage the care of the "lives" they sign up, and those people who voluntarily sign up agree to their rules then in regards to preferred providers, rx lists, preapproval, etc. The insurance company can also charge a "premium" if they are providing services beyond what the fed designates. Any profits made on the "insured lives" is then split by some reimbursement back to the fed, the incorporation of additional services (Like routine vision!) and of course, the insurance company can make some money as well for their job well done.

Many countries already offer something akin to this. IN Australia, you can get a tax break by purchasing your own insurance (or having it company provided) instead of relying on their state insurance. They also have some excellent medical professionals that have brought people from around the world to seek care from them. Of course, we also have US citizens going to India for care because it is CHEAPER than here in the US.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...are-usat_x.htm

[For-Life]

Universal Health Care is not the answer. Right now alot of EU countries are trying to back out of thier Uni Health care systems. You know why? Because they realize its not working. Its a pipe dream.

In Canada there were some politicians there who were instrumental in setting up Universal Health Care and then ended up coming to the US to save thier own butts when they got sick. You know why? Because they are rich and dont believe in thier own systems they designed. Many Canadian people come across the border for care because they are waiting too long to be seen.

In England thier system is straight up barbaric.

There are no European nations trying to get out of their Universal Health Care system. There are some nations looking at improving their health care system, and that makes sense. We are always looking at things to improve the systems. Very, very few Canadians go to the US looking for better wait times. Many that do, come back, because they find the wait times are not better.

Do not let your media and politicians twist the facts for you on what actually happens. I work in Universal Health Care in Canada. I know that facts.


As you mentioned before, you want to encourage private business. A Universal Health Care insurance plan will encourage more businesses than the Bush tax cuts, because it will lower the cost of business probably to around $3000 per employee.

[MasterCrafter]

There are no European nations trying to get out of their Universal Health Care system. There are some nations looking at improving their health care system, and that makes sense. We are always looking at things to improve the systems. Very, very few Canadians go to the US looking for better wait times. Many that do, come back, because they find the wait times are not better.

Do not let your media and politicians twist the facts for you on what actually happens. I work in Universal Health Care in Canada. I know that facts.


As you mentioned before, you want to encourage private business. A Universal Health Care insurance plan will encourage more businesses than the Bush tax cuts, because it will lower the cost of business probably to around $3000 per employee.

I think your the one listening to twisted facts. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is a huge difference between Cananda and the US. First off how many people are in Canada? You can not compare a country so small to a country so big. How many illegal people are in Canada? No where near the amount in the US.

So this is comparing apples to oranges. In the end someone is paying for all that health care. I know people who work in hospitals on the border and beleive me, those Canandians are not going back to Canada to get health care.

Beside the US has the best health care system in the world. People from all over the world come here for care. Universal Health Care would ruin the innovative nature of our system. The only thing we need to do here is stop trial lawyers from suing everybody and that in turn would start controlling costs.

[DragonLensmanWV]

I provide health insurance to my employees at their contribution of 20%, I pay the other 80%. In the last five years our premiums have doubled. I'm now paying over $6500/month for them and me.
Here's an idea that would contribute to lower premiums and overall health care cost:

Ban advertising by drug companies and lawyers.

The drug companies would save billions, thereby reducing the costs of drugs and maybe the frivolous lawsuits and ridiculous settlements would go down. In fact, limit settlements to actual costs and damages X2.

[Jubilee]

Here's the thing.. France, Canada, Australia, Singapore, Columbia, even the UK show better results. The problem is not our technology.. though there are great medical innovators in France, Australia, and Japan as well (who all have state ran health care systems and rank above us in outcomes.) The issue is delivery. We have the GREATEST system if you can afford it. Most people can not. I have known many people, including myself, who have been forced into bankruptcy due to medical bills. All of these people from other nations that come here to get care have one thing.. CASH. Do you think it is fair that we put citizens from other countries above our own for transplants, and other types of complex care? That capitalism works well for insuring that EVERY citizen is healthy and thus more productive? That our insurance companies and hospital systems are all FOR PROFIT entities that instead of focusing on helping the most people.. the competition is which one of the 3 major systems in a fairly small area will receive those big bucks for cancer, neuro, and cardiac care? Come on, while I know Indiana doesn't have the best statistics when it comes to health, do we need 5 heart hospitals in a 30 mile radius? We have a children's hospital that attracts patients from around the midwest. Did we need to build another one to compete with it, or would have those resources been better spent to improve and expand on what we currently have. Instead of having twice as many million dollar pieces of equipment.. fighting for corporate contributions and spreading the already limited resources even further cause this company wants a bigger piece of the pie and really doesn't care if people actually get well or not. (Except that they won't have the reputation they desire if they don't have some results.)

The government can do a great job on the health care front. The VA in recent years have won many awards for improving their delivery systems by negotiating better terms for drugs, implementing electronic records, and being able to provide hi-tech services in house. Since implementing these changes, their costs have gone down, while surveys and independent consultants have shown that the satisfaction of care, and the outcomes have gone up.

I am so tired of hearing people like my folks rant "I don't want the government in my health care!" While raving about how "great the care received from the VA was, and how much we like our doctors" and how they don't want to have "medicare cuts." My own parents just went silent when I pointed out that both systems were either ran by the fed, or regulated by the fed.

[Jubilee]

For my MPH program I wrote a paper about this. The pros and cons of drug advertising. Unfortunately I lost that paper thanks to an upgrade gone bad. I agree that the advertising while it certainly can help increase awareness for certain types of diseases, it also increases demand. Do we really have so many people depressed that need pharmaceutical help? Then what about the people who go in asking for a particular drug seen advertised, and the doc prescribes it even if another drug has been shown to be as beneficial for a much lesser cost. Then thanks to the shady FDA approval process where "similar" drugs can be fast-tracked we can end up with drugs like Vioxx that ended up killing hundreds and disabled thousands of people because it doled out like candy on Halloween and people ate it up.. the drug and advertising.

More recently there was the combo drug that took Zocor and Zetia and combined them to Vytorin. The problem is the combo pill actually did worse in terms of outcomes than taking either drug by itself.

The only issue with limiting settlements is the cost of long term care. That is where a lot of the money comes from. The anticipated costs of care. If we had a nationalized system to where we wouldn't be anticipating the theoretical cost w/o insurance to cover cardiac care for the remaining 20 years or more that someone might have.. or the reduction in wages from becoming disabled.. then a lot of your tort costs go down as well.

[MasterCrafter]

Cradle to grave. People want the govt to take care of them from cradle to grave. Whats next after uni health care? The Govt buys peoples day care? My car payments?

I am tired of this mentality

[Uncle Fester]

Cradle to grave. People want the govt to take care of them from cradle to grave...

I am tired of this mentality

No doubt when the Second Coming happens Conservatives will declare her/him a false prophet.

[Spexvet]

It is silly when Obama is recarpeting the White House

I've searched for this, and couldn't find anything. Do you have a link?

The dems have extended unemployment a few times. I know a few people who have been recieving it for over 3 years now. When does it stop?

When corporate America decides to hire people. Why do you expect the government to fix all the problems?

Spex look where the money comes from , Liberals are supported (largely) by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporations on the planet Conservatives are supported (largely) by us poor gun totin' God fearn' average people.

Please cite. repubicans are in the pocket of big business, so big business funds the repubicans. Look at the wealthy repubican candidates running this election cycle.

[For-Life]

I think your the one listening to twisted facts. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is a huge difference between Cananda and the US. First off how many people are in Canada? You can not compare a country so small to a country so big. How many illegal people are in Canada? No where near the amount in the US.

So this is comparing apples to oranges. In the end someone is paying for all that health care. I know people who work in hospitals on the border and beleive me, those Canandians are not going back to Canada to get health care.

Beside the US has the best health care system in the world. People from all over the world come here for care. Universal Health Care would ruin the innovative nature of our system. The only thing we need to do here is stop trial lawyers from suing everybody and that in turn would start controlling costs.

This is the thing though. Health Care should be much more expensive in Canada than the US, because we have 30 million people spaced out across the second largest nation in the World. The US, which is marginally smaller in land mass, has 300 million people. What this means is in Canada, we have to serve a need for those who are spread out. For instance, in Northwestern Ontario, we have a population of 200,000, but we have 13 hospitals. Why? Because that 200,000 people are spread out 1000km apart. Logically, one or two hospitals would the trick for the population size, but it doesn't.

So the Canadian system SHOULD cost more, but in reality, it is about half the cost of the US system.

[For-Life]

Cradle to grave. People want the govt to take care of them from cradle to grave. Whats next after uni health care? The Govt buys peoples day care? My car payments?

I am tired of this mentality

People ask what is essential and what is not.

I am going to tell you this right now. After being ill for the past four months (and not taking a sick day within that period), health is the most important thing to all human beings. If you are sick, it is difficult to be happy, it is difficult to get and maintain a job, it is difficult to enter into relationships or keep the ones you have.


Plus, like we said, Universal Health Care is a driver in the economy, and the current US health care policy kills jobs.