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Thread: Unexpected AR cleanability complaint from patient

  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Unexpected AR cleanability complaint from patient

    I've got a little AR problem. I made 3 pairs of eyewear for a premium patient and one for his wife, all Essilor lenses with Crizal Avance. My patient recently returned to me complaining all the lenses are immpossibly hard to keep clean, and that his wife experiences the same thing. They are not new to AR, have both been wearing it for years, and understand the whole cleanability issue with AR in general. However, what boggles me is that they claim their old Lenscrafters AR lenses are much easier to clean and keep clean than my Avance lenses.

    I have the advantage of having worked for Lenscrafters and having familiarity with their particualr version of "Scotchgard Protector" as well as Crizal's, and I know full well Crizal is superior in every way. But I don't see a way to communicate this to the patient when he firmly believes his experience is contrary.

    I want to switch him into something else, but in my experience nothing is better for cleanability than Avance. I want to replicate his satisfaction with his old lenses, but I really can't imagine what to substitute to be sure I improve the situation. Just subbing some less premium AR hoping it will be like LC's is an expensive shot in the dark. I would prefer a more educated and experienced alternative, so that's why I'm asking here.

    Anyone have thoughts on this issue, or a very favorite AR for cleanability alone?

    Thanks,
    Daniel

    PS The complaints are about a smudgy film on the lenses. When clean the vision is perfectly clear and excellent, it just won't stay that way. So I'm concerned here primary with the oleophobic properties, everything else is secondary.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Greetings new Optiboarder, and welcome to the Forum.

    I would suggest a check on the cleaner they are using, and also the condition of the cloths they are using. Revisit the method of cleaning, as well.

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comment!

    The cleaner is Hilco, which I use satisfactorily everyday on all my patients' eyewear and provide to all my AR wearers. I also provided him with a new small microfiber cloth. Revisiting cleaning technique is not a bad idea, but the patient's core complaint isn't that he can't get them clean, they just won't stay clean for a reasonable amount of time. He complains of having to clean each pair 2-3 times a day, which with 3 pairs I understand is a real pain.

    It just occurred to me that this is the first time this patient has multiple pairs of eyewear. He used to just use one pair of progressives full time, but now I have him fit with clear progressives, a computer progressive, and progressive sunglasses. Maybe they are just getting a lot dirtier faster because he's swapping them on and off and in and out of cases several times each day? Hate to tell him that's just the price of multiple pairs after he accepted my advice and got the multiples.

    In the meantime at least I'll get him a nice big mocrofiber lab cloth and maybe some pre-moistened cleaning cloths he can carry to make cleaning less of a chore (I really don't like those, but for this guy I'll happily get him some).

  4. #4
    Barticus Prime - Optibot opticianbart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post
    In the meantime at least I'll get him a nice big mocrofiber lab cloth and maybe some pre-moistened cleaning cloths he can carry to make cleaning less of a chore (I really don't like those, but for this guy I'll happily get him some).

    Personally I'd recommend against the pre-moistened cloths, in my experience they end up scratching the lenses, due to the fact that they're just not moist enough.
    Bart Smith, continuing to be awesome since 1982 so that you don't have to.

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  5. #5
    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    How do they appear to be getting dirty? Eyelashes rubbing? Seems as though if he's wearing each pair less often than his previous pair then they shouldn't need to be cleaned as often.

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    MasterCrafter OptiBoarder MasterCrafter's Avatar
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    try an AR without the smudge resistant properties. IE - Regular Crizal vs Crizal Avance ... or Hoya Hi-Vision instead of Super Hi-Vision I've noticed some people are actualy better with the older AR's



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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Yikes!

    It's tempting to ask him to leave a pair for a weeks worth of shelf re do. But I see where this is one sticky wicket. Especially that both of them have the complaint.

  8. #8
    One of the worst people here
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    Another suggestion is to work with the psychological part. Once you think you have come with a solution, order Crizal Sapphire. The colour change will show that you are trying something different and may convince him.

    The ol'glasses in the drawer trick.

  9. #9
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    Warning!! Cheap plug for an ill fellow optiboarder.

    Chris Ryser makes an aftermarket product to return the slick coat to the Ar's. I have not tried it, but have had some people complain of the same thing.

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Check the cases. They are rarely as clean as they should be.

  11. #11
    Rochester Optical WFruit's Avatar
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    Is it possible that the anti-slip coating used on the lenses to prevent slippage during edging has not been completely cleaned off the lenses? I would think that with all the cleanings it sounds like these are going through that it would be, but you never know. It's also possible it was a bad run of lenses through the process.

    I've never really been a fan of the Crizal coatings, not because I think they're bad, but I because I just don't see them as being as superior as they are advertised to be. To me they're just kind of "meh, ok"
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

  12. #12
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    @DanLiv: Another factor(s) to consider, perhaps, is lens size increase, which results in more brow/cheek touch....and/or a switch in frame material as in metal to plastic.

  13. #13
    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousCat View Post
    Check the cases. They are rarely as clean as they should be.
    I'll check, but they are all three new Silhouette frames with new cases, and the pairs are only 2 months old.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterCrafter View Post
    try an AR without the smudge resistant properties. IE - Regular Crizal vs Crizal Avance ... or Hoya Hi-Vision instead of Super Hi-Vision I've noticed some people are actualy better with the older AR's
    Yah, that was kind of my plan, but I can already hear when he comes back and says it's even WORSE. Then not only have I used any lab redo grace, I've also dug the hole deeper.

    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    Another suggestion is to work with the psychological part. Once you think you have come with a solution, order Crizal Sapphire. The colour change will show that you are trying something different and may convince him.

    The ol'glasses in the drawer trick.
    It's definitely going to take some psych work no matter what I do (or don't do). He's a reasonable guy and came to me with (what he believes to be) a legitimate problem. I want to take his issue seriously and improve his experience. Psych alone might get him to give up when he thinks it's as good as it's going to get, but he'll never get rid of that nagging feeling that that the lenses he got for half the price at LC are better than mine, and that kills me.

    Before I actually remake anything I'm going to have him bring in his old glasses and check them out and see if I can do some sort of side-by-side cleanability comparison to show him that the Crizal lenses are in fact better, and he just misremembers how his old ones performed. Anyone got a clever way to demo that cleanability? The hydrophobic demo of running water off the lenses is pointless ("Look! Your Crizal lenses perform better in the pouring rain!"). Maybe smear some 3-in-1 oil on both and see how they clean up?

  14. #14
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    I have seen cases just like this on newer Crizals. My personal theory is that some people's skin oils are slightly different than others and as a result the oils build up quickly. Crizal uniquely uses a silcone based top coat unlike most A/R's that use Tetrafluoroethylene. In these cases the best solution (keeping him in the same A/R) is to give the patient alcohol wipes, and they get the lens really cleaning breaking up the oil base. I have not had a scratch or delamination problem with standard isopropyl wipes used by patients once every few days or a week.

    The other option is to switch A/R's and if he does better, you have nailed the issue.

  15. #15
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post
    the patient's core complaint isn't that he can't get them clean, they just won't stay clean for a reasonable amount of time.
    A client recently told me that one of their new lenses (Creation 1.60 Alize) becomes dirty/foggy by midafternoon. The other lens was fine. I was skeptical because I've never heard of this happening before, but a thorough Q&A and visual inspection (both on and off) did not find a physical explanation. Longtime client with head screwed on straight. Short of some paranormal phenomenon (Ectoplasm? Yikes!), I assumed a coating flaw, and ordered a new lens. I'll probably know for sure after I dispense the new lens.
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  16. #16
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Throwing it out there...

    Have they changed hand soaps or shampoo's recently?

    I'm liking the alcohol cleaning otherwise.

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    Buyer's remorse!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFruit View Post

    Is it possible that the anti-slip coating used on the lenses to prevent slippage during edging has not been completely cleaned off the lenses? I would think that with all the cleanings it sounds like these are going through that it would be, but you never know. It's also possible it was a bad run of lenses through the process.

    I've never really been a fan of the Crizal coatings, not because I think they're bad, but I because I just don't see them as being as superior as they are advertised to be. To me they're just kind of "meh, ok"
    Has nothing do do with cleaning off the .................

    These coatings, whatever the name or origin have a limited lifespan of use and become less sliperry after a few month.

    However there are many Opti Boarders that that just decided, that enough is enough and are now dipping the now dull lenses into our Hydrophobic or Super Hydrophobic solutions to simply renew the system within seconds and keep happy clients.

  19. #19
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    @DanLiv:

    We, collectively, have come up with a myriad of possibilities for you to ponder, apply and execute....with one exception I don't think was mentioned....the new lenses might just be clearer than previous AR experiences and the lenses are perceived to be harder to keep clean.
    Last edited by uncut; 09-23-2010 at 06:01 AM. Reason: sp

  20. #20
    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    This is going to sound simple-minded but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    How clean is the microfiber that they use on the lenses? Some people have no idea that they are meant to be cleaned on a regular basis. It's not a lack of intelligence, just not something that they consider.

  21. #21
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Actually microfibers where to clean AR lenes that did not have a slick coat of whatever name. They are now an obsolete item and not a must anymore.

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    Master OptiBoarder Ginster's Avatar
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    Is he washing his cleaning cloths in the washer and drying in the dryer?, If they are using fabric softener or dryer sheets. the chemical smears off on the lenses from the cloths, and creates a film on the lenses.

  23. #23
    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginster View Post
    Is he washing his cleaning cloths in the washer and drying in the dryer?, If they are using fabric softener or dryer sheets. the chemical smears off on the lenses from the cloths, and creates a film on the lenses.
    Exactly what I was thinking.

    Chris, I'm intrigued! What type of cleaning regimen do you suggest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCspecs View Post

    Exactly what I was thinking.

    Chris, I'm intrigued! What type of cleaning regimen do you suggest?
    Use some dishwasher soap and warm water. Any lens cleaner containing solvents like alcohols will help to destroy your slick coat sooner.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Wave

    BTW...Welcome back Chris.

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