Entry Requirements

**hcjilson** · 03-16-2010, 09:32 AM

While, with each passing year, my memory seems to be getting worse, I cannot recall OAA ever contacting the MA board to promulgate the passage of a regulation establishing formal education as an entry level requirement for licensure. Admittedly my term was interrupted in the early 90's, but I am positive I would have known about this effort had it existed. In fact, it was no secret we were revising our rules and regulations some 6 years back and there certainly was no contact then.At one point I suggested instituting such an educational requirement but was hooted down in view of the situation in Rhode Island who suddenly had a loss of candidates for licensure, and a representative of the Division of Labor and Industries who oversee apprentices in the Commonwealth.

What is past is past, the question becomes one of what do we do today? Is OAA prepared to follow through with this resolution today, is another question that begs an answer. If states are to adopt this requirement, there must be adequate facilities to offer these programs. It is my understanding that the one institution in MA offering an AS degree will only have 11 candidates this year. If this idea is to succeed it will require a multi-pronged effort to make the grade. Support from the national organization, support from the profession, and support from the potential candidates.
How many opticians take the time to participate in Career days at local high schools. How many are out actively recruiting from the crop of today's unemployed workers? My guess would be not too many! The snake in the grass is called apathy and it has come back to bite us. We can change it

Note to Fezz- Roy and I are friends-Time to put away the popcorn and roll up the sleeves. I ask the questions above as food for thought, not because I need the answers.

**kcount** · 03-16-2010, 10:22 AM

Recently I have been sitting on the sidelines of this discussion and have truely enjoyed the comments. Points have been made by all and the debate has been lively, but I would like to refocus on the question at hand.

If it were the case that a motion came forward to increase the level of education needed for new opticians would you be against it? Bear in mind that all currently certified Opticians would be grandfathered in so long as you did not let your certificacion laps. The education requirement would be an Associates Degree from an accredited college in liberal arts. I know this will ruffle some peoples feathers for they want the AA to come from a technical college in Opticianry, but the truth is there are very few of these schools. I'm sorry online doesn't cut it. We're talking hands on face to face classroom time.

So, its an AA from an accredited college, then sit for the ABO/NCLE I say ABO/NCLE because in this new order the tests will be combined in to one testing session (still two tests but we take them all over one day or one weekend). All those with current, up to date ABO's will be grandfathered in with no further requirement other than continued CE's.

If we can agree to this, we can start on the road to a fundementaly sound profession with longevity.

For a historical perspective, Optometry started this same way. At every advancement of educational requirement they would grandfather all existing OD's. The path to licensure is here, and is viable. Opticians before us have marked the way they justy happened to be called prescribing opticians, in the 1800's.

How does that sound? Is that something that we can agree on?

**Darryl Meister** · 03-16-2010, 11:15 AM

I may have missed something, but haven't formal national education standards already been developed by the National Federation of Opticianry Schools with the Commission on Opticianry Accreditation? And does any of that really matter without a license? As the OAA acknowledged in their resolution:

Whereas, this legitimacy can only be expected if we regulate and standardize our industry

Since national licensure is unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever, this becomes a moot point. The ABO's NOCE exam, on the other hand, represents a national education standard that can be enhanced, without extensive legislation.

**Wes** · 03-16-2010, 11:49 AM

Can we assume you mean an opticianry associates, or just a liberal arts associates? I really don't see how an unrelated degree benefits the profession. A BS in business admin doesn't qualify me to become an RN.
Also, somewhere down the line, I would like to see the basic noce/clre (to be renamed apprenticing exams) become the basis for entry as a supervised apprentice and full optician status granted after passing the advanced noce/clre (to be renamed standard exams). Now THAT would give us well qualified future opticians. It also would gain little support as evidenced by the many complaints in this thread.
I think you may be on to something.

**kcount** · 03-16-2010, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by wss2020

Can we assume you mean an opticianry associates, or just a liberal arts associates? I really don't see how an unrelated degree benefits the profession.

Thank you Wss for asking the question. No a Liberal arts degree. This is where I'm coming from in this.

1. A college degree teaches a person to do two things; meet deadlines and think. Thats it, nothing more. college in all its glory is designed to make young adults members of an adult society of thinkers and deadline meeters. Now, secondary education be it law school, medical school, what have you teaches you to do 'something'. Think I'm wrong? Ask your financial advisor what their degree is in. I've seen, theater, marketing, business, biology, and a host of others on the resume's my wife sifts through (she's an retained executive recruiter). The degree is there to show that you have a basic level of education greater than the HS diploma that was required of all of the rest of us.

2. The further West you go the fewer Opticianry programs you find. In Illinois I defy you to find one. Indiana has a program though.

Darrly, you are correct all the educational requirements are moot with out licensure, but there will be NO LICENSURE with out an educational requirement. I agree that the leveling bar needs to be placed not at the licensure but at the certification board. ie see CPA's sited by Dr. McDonald. The requirement there is a Bachelors degree just to think of sitting for the test. Wss before you say it, yes they also require a certain amount of accounting classes. So lets say its gonna have to be an AS in biology or some similarly related science.

I'm just looking for consensus on a level of education we can all agree on. We can talk about what you should get a degree in later.

**Darryl Meister** · 03-16-2010, 12:51 PM

there will be NO LICENSURE with out an educational requirement.

Your point is not entirely clear here; can you elaborate?

**Jacqui** · 03-16-2010, 12:52 PM

I still like my idea better, education+apprenticeship+testing.

**kcount** · 03-16-2010, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Darryl Meister

Your point is not entirely clear here; can you elaborate?

In order to move the licensure ball forward from the scattering of states there are now to more of a majority. We need to place an educational requirement on the ABO. Saddly this is the one point that we cant get behind. I can truely see why people get frustrated and walk away from the conversation.

**kcount** · 03-16-2010, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jacqui

I still like my idea better, education+apprenticeship+testing.

Great, but its failed. We have tried for the last 20+ years and lost ground again and again. You have a new plan?

**Wes** · 03-16-2010, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jacqui

I still like my idea better, education+apprenticeship+testing.

I've read your posts for a while about your high school kid; now there's an apprenticeship. You are the exception, not the rule.
Education? What education? We can't agree on that at all.
Testing? Most opticians think the basic, entry level certification is the be-all, end-all of opticianry. Many are unaware of anything higher. A few have heard there might be something called a master certification. Almost none have heard of the advanced certification.
I like your idea in theory. It has proven woefully inadequate in practice.

As far as kcounts suggestions, maybe if the degree focused on sciences, accounting, economics, and communication skills...
My two cents

**wmcdonald** · 03-16-2010, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by kcount

In order to move the licensure ball forward from the scattering of states there are now to more of a majority. We need to place an educational requirement on the ABO. Saddly this is the one point that we cant get behind. I can truely see why people get frustrated and walk away from the conversation.

We must stiffen the entry requirements first, and then we will be able to expand a bit. As I have stated many times, the reason we have such diverse views is because Opticians in different states and across different regions are different. We must have a similar entry requirement in all states, whether licensed or not, to become an Optician. That requirement must mandate people to do SOMETHING educationally, and once we have a similar frame of reference we will come together to a larger degree, and move forward. Then licensure may be a possibility. That is why, when I saw the CPA's take on entry into the profession, I thought it would be an appropriate discussion. As usual, when people with such different backgrounds attempt to discuss something this sensitive, it often gets a bit testy, but the discussion must take place. I have sung this song, along with Dr. Ferguson and others for nearly 30 years. We have not given up, at least completely, because we want to make the field better than when we entered. Do we tire.....of course. We always get these folks who take the issue personally, and it is not their fault. It is the system we have allowed to shape us. The field has actually declined because we had lax requiremnts, and if we are to end that and build back to solid ground, we must demand higher standards. Do not give up, but listen with on objective ear. We can make it better, and must keep on trying to help these folks, despite their often not realizing we are trying to do so. Hang in there with us. We need good folks!

**Jana Lewis** · 03-16-2010, 03:12 PM

Just curious how someone like me: BA in English, NCLE, ABO 20+ years experience be handled if these new educational requirements were set forth?

**kcount** · 03-16-2010, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jana Lewis

Just curious how someone like me: BA in English, NCLE, ABO 20+ years experience be handled if these new educational requirements were set forth?

Your not effected, Already ABO so no changes. All present certificants would be grandfathered in so long as they maintain their ABO. In the case of a lapsed ABO they would need to meet the new minimum requirements of A.A.S and ABO/NCLE.

**Jana Lewis** · 03-16-2010, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by kcount

Your not effected, Already ABO so no changes. All present certificants would be grandfathered in so long as they maintain their ABO. In the case of a lapsed ABO they would need to meet the new minimum requirements of A.A.S and ABO/NCLE.

Thank you for your response!

My main concern is how will one will act? We've been talking about this for years and we always seem to get the same result, infighting and disagreement on how our educational standard needs applied.

I once was part of a very vocal group of Opticians here in Texas, I wanted to support legislation that would require higher educational requirements and certification. The problem lies with the organizations. The infighting has caused many, many people to throw up their hands! I'd rather stick and ice pick in my eye than to be sit around listening to opticians have at it about licensing and education. Seriously, it's happening on a national level, at state levels and it is even happening on optiboard.

Opticians and the people that are actively working on education standards, I applaud you. Thank you for your efforts. If we can ever come to a sound agreement on what we need to work for then you've got me, until then I will not involve my time, or my money or my sanity!

**wmcdonald** · 03-16-2010, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jana Lewis

Just curious how someone like me: BA in English, NCLE, ABO 20+ years experience be handled if these new educational requirements were set forth?

As stated multiple times, it would be for future Opticians. You would not be affected in any way. I will be lecturing in Arlington this weekend for that very vocal group. I know it gets tough to hear, but we have two choices; continue the battle or give up. I just can't give up. Stay with us, and if in the Dallas/Arlington area, come visit me this weekend. We can be better!

**Jana Lewis** · 03-16-2010, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by wmcdonald

As stated multiple times, it would be for future Opticians. You would not be affected in any way. I will be lecturing in Arlington this weekend for that very vocal group. I know it gets tough to hear, but we have two choices; continue the battle or give up. I just can't give up. Stay with us, and if in the Dallas/Arlington area, come visit me this weekend. We can be better!

I admire your tenacity. I've only "given up" because I am tired of fighting. I do however follow very strict guidelines in my office. No one will be hired for an Opticianry position unless they are ABO or wish to become ABO within six months of employment. I currently have a younger lady at my office whom I am helping study for the NCLE in the fall. I do my small part when I can.

Thank you for the invite, I won't be in the Dallas area this weekend though. Very thoughtful of you to invite me however.

**Laurie** · 03-16-2010, 06:34 PM

Hello 'Boarders,

Chiming in again,

As Warren and others stated, all opticians in the loop now will be grandfathered in... And, I would invite anyone interested in checking out some of the online offerings...they are not mickey mouse. At HCC, we created instructional videos in a studio/video-teleconference classroom, for each and every lecture for each course...a two year development project.

Yes, face-to-face is best, as the instructor can read the body language of the student and cater each class accordingly, however, LOTS of health-care and other professions successfully deliever edu online and otherwise.

Additionally, media technology allows us to show and teach all kinds of stuff, with hands-on learning either at one of our two location campuses or at a dispensary out in the field.

I am an eternal optimist, I believe that 'if we build it, make it accessible and valuable, they will come'. In Florida, opt apprentices receive extra hours (86. something) for every college credit earned. We had students enroll just to get extra hours, and then saw value in the content, and enrolled full time, even though they didn't have to.

Lets build it!

: )

Laurie

**Uilleann** · 03-16-2010, 06:55 PM

So lets look at this. We need several things to happen in order to facilitate real change correct? Feel free to help me out if I'm missing anything here, but it seems to me that if these few things can come to pass, real change may follow:

1. National licensure requirement.

This seems the simplest solution. But who heads it up? ABO? (They seem completely incompetent and ineffective from the view out west here.) The NAO? OAA? Obama? Congress?

The states will N-E-V-E-R agree to a set standard, so it's clear this would need to be a national mandate. Good ol' Utah is leading the charge this past legislative session with a plethora of "states rights message bills" aimed at telling the boys in Washington to go get f***ed. Frankly, I'm hoping they secede and leave the rest of the rational thinking nation in peace! :hammer:

2. Education.

This is a given. I have no formal college/university degree, but it doesn't mean I haven't spent a good deal of time in a classroom post H.S. Would I love to do more? Absolutely! Can I afford it? (on what even a managing optician makes, with a family and most typical adult responsibilities...not even close.) This *SHOULD* be easier to get than it is right now, and folks - tuition ain't getting a penny cheaper; online or b&m doesn't matter. Education comes at a premium right now, and that means it is simply out of reach of many who could, I will personally guess, make outstanding opticians with the proper training.

3. Organizations.

What *precisely* is the role of organizations these days? The ONLY thing the ABO has EVER done for ME in all my years certified with them, is happily collect my re-cert fees every three years. I agree with many others here as well - the test is a complete joke. It needs some serious revision, and questions that pertain to the reality of dispensing. I don't give my money to any other organization yet because: A, I have none. And B, I have zero idea of what these organizations can do both for me professionally, or for the industry as a whole. It's like wanting to vote for the next president - yet knowing (and worse SEEING) absolutely no platform, stance, agenda, ability to perform a given task etc. etc.

Does that make sense? Or is my underdeveloped sense of public speaking shining through again?

There are plenty here with the skill and knowledge to take this fight to the next level certainly. Unfortunately however, there are some powerful forces fighting against any upward push in the optical world. You can rest assured that there is a powerful lobby on the part of big business waiting to shoot down any upstarts who will, in the long run, cost their big company more money in being forced to pay higher wages to more competent staff. On the surface, there is a push to train some in the big box setting. I saw it first hand. But it's not in any sort of effort to better the individual dispenser and make them more valuable to opticianry as a whole. It's about the company in the end.

I know there are a million further points I could touch on but it's goin home time so I'm gonna do just that.

As a final thought for now - we opticians are like a hill full of fire ants. You can poke us with a stick all you like - and we'll all get plenty pi$$ed. We'll run around frantic and mad all over the place. And we'll probably bite. I do anyway. But it takes the promise of FOOD ($$$) to get us to line up and all march in the same direction.

**hcjilson** · 03-16-2010, 07:19 PM

I think Kcount is up to something with his idea. You probably will NEVER get all the states to mandate an associates degree as a requirement.......yet most licensed states recognize ABO and NCLE. I think one approach might be to have ABO and NCLE adopt having an associates degree as a prerequisite to sitting for their exam. If that were to happen, candidates for licensure would already have the education in place. ABO-NCLE would have to allow anyone already in the pipeline a pass on this requirement. Institution could be in as little as 3 years which would see anyone already in the pipeline to proceed as they do presently. This is how we were able to mandate NCLE in MA. I think this would definitely work but it would take some selling on the part of the 2 accrediting bodies.

**Johns** · 03-16-2010, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by hcjilson

I think one approach might be to have ABO and NCLE adopt having an associates degree as a prerequisite to sitting for their exam.

And kill the golden goose?

The ABO thrives on having as many people as possible sit for the exam. What incentive would they have to raise the standards? If they really wanted to have high standards, they could have raised them long ago.

Collect money + administer test + issue a certificate + send a renewal + collect more money.... what a business model!

**hcjilson** · 03-16-2010, 08:43 PM

That my Ohioan friend, is where the states DO have some leverage. The state licensing authority determines which test is acceptable for licensure, and that does NOT require a change in the statute, or the governing rules and regs. So it is conceivable to have a new test by a new authority requiring an AAS degree as a prerequisite if the ABO and NCLE were to refuse. It is high time they recognize they only have the creditability that is given to them by the states. I am frankly surprised that no one has challenged this yet......and yes, I admit to being part of that problem.

**Johns** · 03-16-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by hcjilson

I think Kcount is up to something with his idea.

I have to agree that it was an excellent post, with many good ideas, I just think it's going to take an institution/group that has more will to raise the standards than the self serving board that benefits from flooding the profession w/"entry levelers".

**Jacqui** · 03-16-2010, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Johns

I have to agree that it was an excellent post, with many good ideas, I just think it's going to take an institution/group that has more will to raise the standards than the self serving board that benefits from flooding the profession w/"entry levelers".

Might be a good project for FEZZJOHNS Inc.

**kcount** · 03-17-2010, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Johns

I have to agree that it was an excellent post, with many good ideas, I just think it's going to take an institution/group that has more will to raise the standards than the self serving board that benefits from flooding the profession w/"entry levelers".

What if we were the organization?

**rbaker** · 03-17-2010, 01:37 PM

Of course there is another career training track that must be considered. Take the case of Ernesto Rangel Juarez.

Juarez petitions this court for a writ of habeas corpus releasing him from prison after the Board of Parole Hearings (Board) denied him parole and the San Mateo County Superior Court denied a previous writ petition. There is no evidence in the record to support the Board's denial, or that Juarez continues to pose an unreasonable risk of danger to society

Juarez's most significant work achievements have been in optical training, including his designation as a certified optician by the American Board of Opticianry in 2004. At the time of the 2008 hearing, he was continuing his assignment to the lens lab in the prison, where he had worked for 10 years, and had "very good" relationships with staff. His work and teaching skills were noteworthy. A vocational instructor at the optical lab who had worked with Juarez since 1998 wrote:

"His skill, workmanship and teaching ability would be extremely valuable to potential employers. The November 2008 American Board of Optician exam resulted in 24 of 25 inmates passing to become certified opticians. This is a (96%) success rate. Juarez provided lessons to help these inmates achieve this nationally recognized professional certification. He has been dedicated to education and helping other inmates with the educational goals as long as I have known him. Juarez has passed the American Board of Opticianry Contact Lens and Spectacle Lens exams. Juarez is very suitable for employment as an Optical Technician, Dispensing Optician or teaching Optics."

The whole article is here http://www.leagle.com/unsecure/page....aco20100316011