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Thread: Thickness issues with plus Autograph II PAL lenses

  1. #1
    JuliAnne
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    Thickness issues with plus Autograph II PAL lenses

    Has anyone noticed their Autograph II PALs being thick, especially on the bottom edge? I'm using appropriate materials for the patients' prescriptions, have minimized decentration, and they're still just thick. The patients are liking the optics for the most part, but not the weight or the thick appearance. (Trust me, we're using appropriate materials - this isn't the issue.) We're noticing this on plus lenses only, of course. I'm wondering if it's because all the additional plus for the add has to be ground into the back surface, and that possibly this way of doing it just results in thicker bottom edges than the front-surface design from a traditional progressive? Am I stuck with this, or is our local lab having a bad week?

  2. #2
    Allen Weatherby
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    Thickness issues

    I don't know why the Shamir freefrom has a problem with plus jobs, if you want to private message or e-mail me the prescriptions you are having this problem with I will calculate with our ICE-TECH PAL software and give you the edge thickness calculations.

    I think this would confirm if it is a limitation of the particular prescription or a Sharmir or combination of Shamir and Lab management software issue.

    I try to help demystify the issues with digital surfacing.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWTECH View Post
    I don't know why the Shamir freefrom has a problem with plus jobs, if you want to private message or e-mail me the prescriptions you are having this problem with I will calculate with our ICE-TECH PAL software and give you the edge thickness calculations.

    I think this would confirm if it is a limitation of the particular prescription or a Sharmir or combination of Shamir and Lab management software issue.

    I try to help demystify the issues with digital surfacing.
    I agree.

    One of the benefits are actually thinner and flatter lenses.
    Are you ordering by draw or box measures only?
    It´s very important to order by draw.

    Mike

  4. #4
    Optical Educator
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    Hmmm...

    Hello JuliAnne,

    Welcome to Optiboard! : )

    Hmmm...

    There are lots are parameters to consider, we could PM on the actual details: Rx, job (traced or not traced), lab, invoice number, ect... I am not a processing expert, however, it could be a processing/lab issue.

    At a glance, here are some considerations/questions from the technical dept:

    Hope it helps:

    1. We need to know what the thin edge is.
    2. If the top and bottom of the lens is balanced. It could be that the outside edge is thin but the prism thinning is giving too much base down.
    3. Depending on what LMS is being used it could be a LMS issue as they may be sending too much base down.
    4. It also could have to do with frame selection if the plus is high with the add and the frame is narrow the edge will be thick both top and bottom.
    5. Also if the lenses were ordered using a trace or with box measurements.

  5. #5
    OptiBoard Apprentice JanMueller's Avatar
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    Welcome JuliAnne
    The problem is, that FreeForm lenses are always thicker then the semi- finished ones. One german lens manufacturer told us this some years ago. I have had so much patients (in Germany just clients ;-), who noticed that. It it is not only a fact when talking about Progressives, even SV when digitally surfaced share this problem. I bet that you are right when you say that the reason is the additional plus power that is needed.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanMueller View Post
    Welcome JuliAnne
    The problem is, that FreeForm lenses are always thicker then the semi- finished ones. One german lens manufacturer told us this some years ago. I have had so much patients (in Germany just clients ;-), who noticed that. It it is not only a fact when talking about Progressives, even SV when digitally surfaced share this problem. I bet that you are right when you say that the reason is the additional plus power that is needed.
    Hi Jan.

    Well I´m wondering as well, and I can ensure that Freeform is not always thicker than conventional. Actually it´s more often thinner.
    Change supplier.

    Mike

  7. #7
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    Wink Laurie, I have not said anything until now!

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Hello JuliAnne,

    Welcome to Optiboard! : )

    Hmmm...

    There are lots are parameters to consider, we could PM on the actual details: Rx, job (traced or not traced), lab, invoice number, ect... I am not a processing expert, however, it could be a processing/lab issue.

    At a glance, here are some considerations/questions from the technical dept:

    Hope it helps:

    1. We need to know what the thin edge is.
    2. If the top and bottom of the lens is balanced. It could be that the outside edge is thin but the prism thinning is giving too much base down.
    3. Depending on what LMS is being used it could be a LMS issue as they may be sending too much base down.
    4. It also could have to do with frame selection if the plus is high with the add and the frame is narrow the edge will be thick both top and bottom.

    5. Also if the lenses were ordered using a trace or with box measurements.
    THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE THICKNESS ON ALL PLUS AND MINUS SHAMIR AUTOGRAPH ATTITUDE LENSES!


    I have reviewed this issue with 2 labs who produce the Shamir products and both are very frustrated with the thickness issues. I only hope this finally gets the attention it deserves, because people are paying for a premium product and it is not as good as it can be.

    I have provided examples and lenses that have been sent to Israel for evaluation and have not had any success in getting them to deal with the issues.
    I just did an order for a patient that had a 6.4mm center in 1.67 and when we ran the cals in a different brand of free form; the center thickness was only 4.2mm, BUT IT WAS TRIVEX THIS TIME.

    I just told my rep last week that we were ordering all plus lenses elsewhere and then having to send the sun glasses out for mirror coatings.

    That is how bad the thickness issue is with Shamir and has been since they launched the prodcut.


    I wait to get slammed!!!!!!!!

    Craig

    For what it is worth, I was the test site for Pentax free form when it was all done in Japan almost 8 years ago. I have done thousands of pairs and wish Shamir would fix this thickness issue.

  8. #8
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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    I have experienced the same .I quit ordering the product . I thought at fiirst, I had done something wrong, but this thread leads me to believe otherwise.

    Funny thing is that the patient's didn't complain. I did presell the thickness issue though so it wouldn't come back to haunt me.

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    No more Kodak Unique for me in anything higher than Plus 2.00!!!
    Our Seiko freeform does them knife edge!!!!!

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up We have great success with thickness on Unique?

    Quote Originally Posted by LENNY View Post
    No more Kodak Unique for me in anything higher than Plus 2.00!!!
    Our Seiko freeform does them knife edge!!!!!
    I wasn an original direct account/ consultant with Kodak as they launched the product over 3 years ago; it has come along way!

    The default thickness is a tad thick on plus lenses, but if you lower the A by 2mm it will drop the system down one crib size.
    That gives us great thickness, we just ordered a +6.75 +2.50 add in 1.74 and it looked great!

    Hope it helps and we use 85% trivex 10% 1.67 and 5% 1.74; thickness is now awesome on all materials we utilize and I cannot verify the other materials they use.

    I hope this is helpful to someone.

    Craig

  11. #11
    Rochester Optical WFruit's Avatar
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    In our lab we run both Seiko and Shamir free form. There should not be an issue with thickness if the lenses are set up correctly in their lab software. The Shamir lenses use a frame center grind, so that the progressive is place in the single vision lens for both optimal optics and cosmetics (which is why you'll get uncut blanks that are smaller than a conventional progressive and the progressive will be decentered both horizontally and vertically in the lens).

    Thickness can be an issue if:

    The Lab LMS is using the same prism thinning information for the Free Form as it is for conventional progressives.

    The lab LMS is using the incorrect surface blocking layout information (geometric center vs. frame center)

    The lab is using the same surface blocks for Free Form as they are for Conventional (although this may vary by equipment. We're using the Loh VFT and it uses different blocks from the V-100 that we use for standard work.)

    The more accurate the frame information you send (trace vs. box), the more accurate the lens thickness will be.

    Also, make sure the lab is supplying you the optimal lens for the Rx. While an Auto II 13 will work with a 18 seg height, it isn't the optimal lens.

    If you have a technical person you deal with at the lab you are using, I would give them a call and make sure they are aware of the issue and have them check their LMS to make sure the lenses are set up correctly.

    If you want to PM me an Rx and frame data, I can run it through our LMS and tell you what thickness it gets for the Autograph II lens.
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

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