I think mostly they are finding out surfacing doesn't pay. Too many of the O's are listening to the sales reps rather than the accountants.
If you do get one, make sure you have someone that can set it up properly.
I think mostly they are finding out surfacing doesn't pay. Too many of the O's are listening to the sales reps rather than the accountants.
If you do get one, make sure you have someone that can set it up properly.
Last edited by Jacqui; 12-30-2009 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Added, Deleted, Multiplied
Not necessarily, just that there are very tight margins on surfacing. Labs get beat up from both sides, retail ( in house is treated the same) and the manufacturer, who only may warranty a product for raw materials and not the cost of production. How many times do you "blame" the lab for something, and now that is your money out the window.Originally Posted by fjpod
You can do poly if you get a backside coating machine which is necessary with any system. Unliess you need safety, why use poly as it in optically inferior to Cr or mid index. With Fast Grind you can make a thinner lens than wholesale lab because you can grind into their block. The Eyedeal progressive is as good as any digital progressive I have tried. Yes you can do comfort and other Varilux products but why pay for the name when they have equally good generics.
I think we've finally completed the industry abuse of the term "digital progressive" in this thread. Hard to imagine anybody could use the term "digital progressive" and FastGrind in the same sentence.
Remember, when you put in your own surfacing, you end up selling what you can make...not what you can sell.
RT
Good point.
I know poly needs to be backside coated,...but you are the first I have heard said that FG can do poly???
We've made a go of it for twenty years or so now. The problems you can encounter involve inventory (got burned during each of the first two Transitions upgrades until the vendors started taking them back - still have some Xtractive and T-IIIs lying around), machine repairs, software, and of course, personnel.
You can make it work if you have someone who already knows surfacing, or is a quick learner. After all, a lot of it is routine and it's not rocket science, but you will be paying for all mistakes. It's worth noting that Younger has a no-fault on their Image, so that can help, and it's a decent regular lens. Of course if you currently sell a lot of AR, it won't help. If you currently sell, few ARs, then you might be OK.
We've had to increase inventory after we got a backside coater(different indexes), but still, most you can let the vendors stock because you can get it overnight.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Sooner or later that is exactly what will happen. You want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack by offering "Freeform Digital bla..bla..bla...?" too bad because it's only a matter of time before the on-line retailers get the equipment and start offering state of the art eyewear to the masses via the internet!! You think when companies find out their employees can get their own glasses for next to nothing without needing to use any insurance because it's so cheap, or the government decides they can provide the "less fortunate" of us eyewear for cheaper for them simply by steering those in need to the on-line websites??!! They don't care about how we're gonna make a living, all they care about is saving a buck! Our industry is in for some shocking changes in the near future. Why don't you contact your major lens manufacturing firms and ask them how they plan on ensuring their own futures? I'll bet they really don't have a plan. Buy surfacing equipment?? OMG...what for? :(
Chris Beard
The State of Jefferson !
I'm a Medford man – Medford, Oregon. Up in Medford, we take our time making up our minds."
Many have advised me not to go for surfacing, citing increased staff, equipment, inventory, headaches, spoilage, etc.
But doesn't the same reasoning apply to in-house edging? When a newbie sets up an edging lab, he/she is in for rude awakening relative to these problems, yet virtually every optician, and most optometrists have edging in-house.
I realize surfacing is "another" process, something else to go wrong, but I think good optical practices specialize in things going wrong.
just talkin here....
You are right. Alot will depend on the kind of volume you think you can do. Just remember, the people who want to sell you the equipment will tell you one thing, the labs you do business with now will tell you another. Most of the equipment will come with one year warranties which you can usually augment later with maintenance agreements. Those yearly contracts aren't cheap but neither are many of the replacement parts! if you don't want to risk what can easily be a $5000 bill (plus lost profits) for an unexpected major repair on that piece of equipment you must set up an account for those types of expenses. The cost of owning that equipment never ends-even after it's paid for.
Chris Beard
The State of Jefferson !
I'm a Medford man – Medford, Oregon. Up in Medford, we take our time making up our minds."
Here is something else to consider prior to setting up an in house lab whether surfacing or edging. One reason to do your own fabrication is to provide rapid service to the customer although I don't think this is a big issue. This usually means that you sell what you have in stock. Unless you are willing to stock the high end of lens blanks you will not be maximizing your sales. And if you are stocking the high end products you will have an inordinate amount of your financial resources tied up in inventory. Economically it is a lose lose situation.
Unless you already know what you are doing and have the talent in place you will probably regret the time and money that you invested. The return on investment just isn't there.
However, if you are a real Optician you will be doing everything in house with the exception of vacuum coating. You will have a field day hand rocking cylinders, making pitch laps and cranking out bi-concaves. The thought of sending anything out will send chills down your spine - no matter that you lose your butt on every job.
On the other hand, can you imagine how expensive a pair of -25.50 saddleback myodisks in 1.71 would be from a lab? When I did them myself I just had the cost of blanks and labor. Those lenses from a lab would have cost me 5X what I had in them.
Of course, how often do you run into an Rx like that?
It is true that you would (mostly) sell what you have. If you have good lenses, and time frame is important to your patients, you can make a go at it.
Just don't expect huge rewards.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Certainly it must be very gratifying to be able to do an Rx like that(-25.00) on your own but really, as mr. Dragon said, how often are we challenged by something like that any more? I rememnber the myodisc, aspheric-lentics, glass ribbon segs etc., we were doing when I got started. When was the last time you did one? AHhh.. the good old days....you know, the ones that are long gone??!
Chris Beard
The State of Jefferson !
I'm a Medford man – Medford, Oregon. Up in Medford, we take our time making up our minds."
What I really want to be able to make would be Varilux or Essilor progressives in CR, poly and hi-index, in transition from +6 to -10.
I was looking at my surface bills the other day and a Varilux comfort in 1.67 transition with alize was $xxx. (decided not to post price, but it was obscene).
First off, you will never, never, never,ever get Varilux blanks.Same for Zeiss. You will not do enough volume to get those.But you should be able to prodiuce those for about 2/3 of your lab uncut cost. You can get Hoya, or the Essilor "versions" of the Varilux products, as well as Younger,Polycore,Vision-Ease,Signet-Armorlite and other products.
Be aware that you cannot surface anything higher-index than Spectralite without a backside coater.
Your power range is OK, but you also have to have somewhere to store your tools, and of course you have to make a choice of blocking systems - alloy or wax, or whatever new thay have coming up. And are you going to make your own tools, or purchase a set?
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Transitions is a registered trademark of Transitions Optical. It should be capitalized just like Varilux or Essilor.What I really want to be able to make would be Varilux or Essilor progressives in CR, poly and hi-index, in transition from +6 to -10.
If you put in your own surfacing, you wouldn't be able to apply the Alize AR coating yourself. So your plan won't save you any money...you'd still have to send that job out. Or, more likely, you'd end up selling that job without the AR coat so you could justify having your surfacing setup...that leads to a lost profit opportunity.
I was looking at my surface bills the other day and a Varilux comfort in 1.67 transition with alize was $xxx
Assuming that you are marking up product correctly, you should be making a profit no matter what the wholesale acquisition cost is.
And don't forget FDA drop ball testing on what you surface, and the associated record keeping. I mean, you WERE planning on doing that, right?
RT
All valid points.
So here's what I think about surfacing after studying systems from the two leading manufacturers...
It's all great equipment...but, it is all designed for the wholesale laboratory. There is nothing designed for say, 10-20 pair per day. Everything is geared for mass production and would be overkill, even in a large optical practice. Even entry level equipment is large and robust for volume production. Equipment pricing is set at a level that only a wholesale lab can make back.
Lens casting systems have tried to capture this market, but have failed miserably. That F...G... system would be ok, but the pre-blocked blanks do not save you much on brand name product, and they can be your only supplier.
It seems to me there is an untapped market out there for a start-up company to make a truly compact, low volume system that does real surfacing.
But to what market? Independents are a dying breed, and some of those remaining (on this board) are claiming 40%+ VSP work. That's all going to the VSP lab.
Not that I wouldn't like to have a small system, but I wonder as to how much of a market there is for it...
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Are you referring to freeform surfacing systems, or conventional? Because there are certainly conventional systems available for - well, maybe not 10, but 20 jobs per day. Gerber's "Premier Lab" was designed to be sold into that market segment (and somewhat larger, to be sure, but not "mass production")... and I'm pretty sure that more than 1000 such systems have been sold.
Yes, but the system can do up to 40 pair in a shift, and it is priced at $127k, and this is for conventional surfacing. (with a backside coater, but no tools.)
This is one case when overkill can work to your advantage. A set of aluminum laps like mine will run about $25,000, plus you will need a lap cutter to keep them trued. Plastic or foam laps can be used, but the cost per lens is higher.
There is a whole lot more that I would like to say, maybe tomorrow after I get some more sleep.
:cheers:
Has anybody seen or used one of these?
http://www.opticalauctions.com/lot.cfm?lotID=6308
Seems exactly like what I was talking about.
That's the same gernerator I use, and I have a couple of refurb finers/polishers from OWC. They do a good job of rebuilding.That could work, but as Jacqui pointed out, in addition you will need a tool rack and tools. You could get a used set of aluminum tools, or you can just start out making what tools you need for each job and build as you go. But that will be slower.
Then you have to figure out what lens companies to go with. Hoya is making their blanks available, but they're pricey, but as you probably know,durn good designs.
I use mostly Younger, as they have the easiest return policy.Essilor and Armorlite have restrictive return policies, and Polycore is priced well and also fairly easy to get along with - but terrible lens boxes. You never get one that's not falling open.
Then you will have to determine whether you want to surface both short-fit and regular progressives, and whatever types of other lenses. If you already don't do a lot of AR, this will work
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
If you're still in Orlando, I'm 45 minutes away you're welcome to come see my setup it's surface, finish, laps, lenses and eyeglass cases storage all in 136sq ft (8x17)
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