Pants on Fires!

[FVCCHRIS]

that is all too bad. I think it is sad that the richest corporations own politicians. Now think if the UK secretively funded opposition politicians to George Washington 225 years ago...

For my idea to ABOLISH CONGRESS ALTOGETHER!! Change to a direct democracy requiring every legal citizen to vote their way on the issues. What has Congress done lately anyhow-except do what their lobbyists tell them to do. They no longer represent "We the People" on anything.

[For-Life]

For my idea to ABOLISH CONGRESS ALTOGETHER!! Change to a direct democracy requiring every legal citizen to vote their way on the issues. What has Congress done lately anyhow-except do what their lobbyists tell them to do. They no longer represent "We the People" on anything.

one thing that is interesting though is the concept of checks and balances. The US has the most (elected house, elected senate, and elected president with powers). Everything has to go through three stamps. Other nations may only have two or even one stamp.

[Chris Ryser]

Change is occuring .......if you can't help in this effort, get the hell out of the way!

In Canada,
Having a bout with cancer years ago, collapsed on holidays, a trip of 20 miles to a hospital, four hour operation, 6 days in hospital followed with 6 month of chemo therapy at 1 week per month ($ 4,000 per day), .................... my total personal cash outlay was $ 130.00 for the ambulance.


In Naples Florida
My wife having real pain, was told by a doctor to go to the emergency in the Hospital and made the arrangements by telephone. She was there for
10 hours and passed several tests, in at PM and out a AM without any results and help.
Cost was $ 13,500
Family Doc determined that she had a broken rip, which was not seen in hospital.

Even if our Canadian system is by way not perfect, I still prefer to have it as well as everybody else.

[obxeyeguy]

In Canada,
Having a bout with cancer years ago, collapsed on holidays, a trip of 20 miles to a hospital, four hour operation, 6 days in hospital followed with 6 month of chemo therapy at 1 week per month ($ 4,000 per day), .................... my total personal cash outlay was $ 130.00 for the ambulance.


In Naples Florida
My wife having real pain, was told by a doctor to go to the emergency in the Hospital and made the arrangements by telephone. She was there for
10 hours and passed several tests, in at PM and out a AM without any results and help.
Cost was $ 13,500
Family Doc determined that she had a broken rip, which was not seen in hospital.

Even if our Canadian system is by way not perfect, I still prefer to have it as well as everybody else.

Great example Chris, but it is irrelevant. Flip your own scenario around for me, and how much would I have paid in Canada for the cancer treatments and emergency surgery?? US citizen, US insurance, being treated in a foreign country, I doubt it would be $130.

This is apples and oranges here.

[For-Life]

Great example Chris, but it is irrelevant. Flip your own scenario around for me, and how much would I have paid in Canada for the cancer treatments and emergency surgery?? US citizen, US insurance, being treated in a foreign country, I doubt it would be $130.

This is apples and oranges here.

but is it really? First off, Chris is a snow bird, so he lives in the US x amount of time a year. That means that while he is not a US citizen, he could easily get health care insurance in the US.

Does the hospitals in the US charge different amounts to US citizens that are uninsured versus those that are insured?

But the real question is what is the real cost for someone who uses the health care services and is insured in the US versus someone who uses the health care services and is insured in Canada?

[obxeyeguy]

but is it really? First off, Chris is a snow bird, so he lives in the US x amount of time a year. That means that while he is not a US citizen, he could easily get health care insurance in the US. He could, but he doesn't state whether he has insurance, only what the bill was.

Does the hospitals in the US charge different amounts to US citizens that are uninsured versus those that are insured? Yes, uninsured do not benefit from the negotiated discounts given to the insurance companies.:hammer:


But the real question is what is the real cost for someone who uses the health care services and is insured in the US versus someone who uses the health care services and is insured in Canada?Chris made it sound like he had to pay the whole $13000.

You skillfully avoided my question. How much would I pay for that treatment in Canada??

Once again, I will say it's apples and oranges. Two different countries, two different systems, and they do not apply equally to each other.

[hcjilson]

Great example Chris, but it is irrelevant. Flip your own scenario around for me, and how much would I have paid in Canada for the cancer treatments and emergency surgery?? US citizen, US insurance, being treated in a foreign country, I doubt it would be $130.

This is apples and oranges here.

Your bill would have been exactly the same as Chris's.....and would have been the same in England,as well as the myriad of other countries with similar programs who have recognized the value of the health of their citizens. What they have managed to do is take the fear out of the expense, by short cutting the middleman (insurance companies) who add no value to the system and contribute heavily to it's outrageous cost.

[For-Life]

You skillfully avoided my question. How much would I pay for that treatment in Canada??

Once again, I will say it's apples and oranges. Two different countries, two different systems, and they do not apply equally to each other.

Do you want me to make up an answer? I did not avoid your question. I do not know the exact amount and think it does not make sense to make one up. I have heard a few things and but I do not think that is a way to make an argument.

[gemstone]

In Canada,
Having a bout with cancer years ago, collapsed on holidays, a trip of 20 miles to a hospital, four hour operation, 6 days in hospital followed with 6 month of chemo therapy at 1 week per month ($ 4,000 per day), .................... my total personal cash outlay was $ 130.00 for the ambulance.


In Naples Florida
My wife having real pain, was told by a doctor to go to the emergency in the Hospital and made the arrangements by telephone. She was there for
10 hours and passed several tests, in at PM and out a AM without any results and help.
Cost was $ 13,500
Family Doc determined that she had a broken rip, which was not seen in hospital.

Even if our Canadian system is by way not perfect, I still prefer to have it as well as everybody else.

Individual's Federal Income Tax Rates 2009



Income (CAD)
1-38,832 15%
38,833-77,664 22%
77,665-126,264 26%
126,265 and over29%
Anyone need a calculator?

[obxeyeguy]

Your bill would have been exactly the same as Chris's.....and would have been the same in England,as well as the myriad of other countries with similar programs who have recognized the value of the health of their citizens. What they have managed to do is take the fear out of the expense, by short cutting the middleman (insurance companies) who add no value to the system and contribute heavily to it's outrageous cost.

Harry, I agree with your insurance company statement, as they do not add any real value to the health care system.

So your saying that I would be treated basically for no charge in Canada or England, even though I am not a citizen?? I really don't know the answer to this, and that is why I am asking. It is not a troll question.

[For-Life]

Individual's Federal Income Tax Rates 2009



Income (CAD)
1-38,832 15%
38,833-77,664 22%
77,665-126,264 26%
126,265 and over29%
Anyone need a calculator?

US Income Tax Rates

10% - Under $8350
15% - $8350 - $33950
25% - $33951 - $82250
28% - $82251 - $171550
33% - $171551 - $372950
35% - $372951

Gem, you can borrow my calculator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States

[For-Life]

US Income Tax Rates

10% - Under $8350
15% - $8350 - $33950
25% - $33951 - $82250
28% - $82251 - $171550
33% - $171551 - $372950
35% - $372951

Gem, you can borrow my calculator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States

Oh and to compare apples to apples, I noticed Gem made a few errors. So let me fix that for ya

Canadian Income Tax Rate

0% - $0 to $10321
15% - $10322 to $40726
22% - $40727 to $81452
26% - $81,453 to $126,264
29% - Over $126,264

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_taxes_in_Canada


But in reality, let's remember that there is also a lot more to this. Canada does have a value added sales tax of 5% on many of its products. We have to compare the corporate tax rates and we have to compare the provincial tax rates. So Canadians may be paying more taxes in the end. We may not be.

[gemstone]

I guess it depends on your source. At least I did not use Wiki! Ha HA HA!
I would have paid 10,000 more in Ca. than I paid on my last federal tax form Acording to this source (may well be unreliable):
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/f...g.html#federal

If I were a Canadian:
22% of 74,000= 16,280.adjusted gross income.

The actual amount paid on my last years tax form was $6000 with adjusted gross of $74,000.
I probly would not have made that much in Ca. though.

[DragonLensmanWV]

Speaking of Pants On Fies er..um Fire!

Sarah Palin!

[For-Life]

I guess it depends on your source. At least I did not use Wiki! Ha HA HA!
I would have paid 10,000 more in Ca. than I paid on my last federal tax form Acording to this source (may well be unreliable):
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/f...g.html#federal

If I were a Canadian:
22% of 74,000= 16,280.adjusted gross income.

The actual amount paid on my last years tax form was $6000 with adjusted gross of $74,000.
I probly would not have made that much in Ca. though.

Wiki used Canadian Revenue Agency as a source for that table though :) Otherwise, I would not have quoted it. The only reason why I showed the adjusted table was to show that under $10k, you do not pay income tax

Keep in mind that these tax rates do change with rebates, kids, wife, ect

[hcjilson]

Harry, I agree with your insurance company statement, as they do not add any real value to the health care system.

So your saying that I would be treated basically for no charge in Canada or England, even though I am not a citizen?? I really don't know the answer to this, and that is why I am asking. It is not a troll question.

Not only England and Canada but unless I am mistaken, in every country with a national heath service.The charge is the same for everyone! One of my customers was in the other day and his wife was treated in London for an apendectomy-whatever that entails. He was astounded that he paid nothing.She was hospitalized and got great care.[he said but I've heard the same story from many]

[hcjilson]

Wiki used Canadian Revenue Agency as a source for that table though :) Otherwise, I would not have quoted it. The only reason why I showed the adjusted table was to show that under $10k, you do not pay income tax

Keep in mind that these tax rates do change with rebates, kids, wife, ect

No one said health care is free, of course it has to be paid for. What we are trying to hammer out is a health care plan that is affordable and is accessible to all.

[For-Life]

Not only England and Canada but unless I am mistaken, in every country with a national heath service.The charge is the same for everyone! One of my customers was in the other day and his wife was treated in London for an apendectomy-whatever that entails. He was astounded that he paid nothing.She was hospitalized and got great care.[he said but I've heard the same story from many]

see I thought that was the case, but am not totally sure. I do believe that the Canadian government would then receive payment from the American government for that service

[hcjilson]

You can see the problem the US government is having in providing its OWN citizens with health care.....no way they're going to pay a foreign government. :):)

[For-Life]

You can see the problem the US government is having in providing its OWN citizens with health care.....no way they're going to pay a foreign government. :):)

You know the US government set up Universal Health Care in Iraq?

[gemstone]

You can see the problem the US government is having in providing its OWN citizens with health care.....no way they're going to pay a foreign government. :):)

I aways chuckle at that phrase. The government should provide. Maybe I think too much. I try to think where the government gets all it's money.
I will submit that everyone can imagine an amount coming out of their check that they would have to say that is enough. I already feel they take too much of mine. More often than not, I do not like the way they spend it. While all this is going on, our NC government has raised our taxes. Can you imagine that? Unemployment is as high as since J carter. With all the companies that are faltering, closing up shop, or moving out of the country and they raise taxes.

I read an article once that suggested the government provide an extra payment to deadbeats in order for them to establish savings accounts. "They have no money to save" it said.

I disagree with the government taking over sick companies, that should be allowed to fail naturally.
I also disagree with them taking over healthy thriving industries. They want both. It is all about relentlessly expanding the tax footprint. That is the basis of it all. I guess that's where we disagree.

I predict that after their success taking over the health care industry they will go after the food industry. That's big business as well. It should be easy enough to blame them for our problems (making them look like bad guys).

[hcjilson]

You can see the problem the US government is having in providing its OWN citizens with health care.....no way they're going to pay a foreign government. :):)

You can see what the problem is. The US government is having a problem seeing that their OWN citizens have access to affordable heath care....There is no way they will pay a foreign government!

I always chuckle when someone wants to play with words but doesn't acknowledge getting the message. National Health Care is inevitable eventually, but a long way off, and a long way from what is being proposed now. What you are looking at is a baby step compared with what is needed. You can see how polarized everyone is. In a large part that is due to the missinformation being spread around eminating from the very industry that is causing the problem to begin with.

[For-Life]

I aways chuckle at that phrase. The government should provide. Maybe I think too much. I try to think where the government gets all it's money.
I will submit that everyone can imagine an amount coming out of their check that they would have to say that is enough. I already feel they take too much of mine. More often than not, I do not like the way they spend it. While all this is going on, our NC government has raised our taxes. Can you imagine that? Unemployment is as high as since J carter. With all the companies that are faltering, closing up shop, or moving out of the country and they raise taxes.

I read an article once that suggested the government provide an extra payment to deadbeats in order for them to establish savings accounts. "They have no money to save" it said.

I disagree with the government taking over sick companies, that should be allowed to fail naturally.
I also disagree with them taking over healthy thriving industries. They want both. It is all about relentlessly expanding the tax footprint. That is the basis of it all. I guess that's where we disagree.

I predict that after their success taking over the health care industry they will go after the food industry. That's big business as well. It should be easy enough to blame them for our problems (making them look like bad guys).

I think the best way to figure this out is to look at other nations. How many nations with a Universal Health Care system has taken over the food industry?

I think there is an argument for the logic of which projects should be government owned and which ones should not. The food industry is extremely competitive. The health care industry is not.

[FVCCHRIS]

Democrat, Republican, All others---No matter how noble their intentions when they "Get Hired"---Go in pigs and come out sausage. When this is all over, in another 6 months or so, there will be nothing concrete done about the health care delivery system in this country. Nothing, because the powers that be(insurance companies and their paid politicians) think everything is just dandy the way it is.

:idea: My idea of a sure fire way for our government to get something done would be to pass a law covering all members of the house and the senate- The health care package approved by congress for all of us should be the ONE and ONLY source of health care for those elected officials from now until the day they die. ;)

[gemstone]

Speaking of Pants On Fies er..um Fire!

Sarah Palin!

Shame on you and your fantasies! :finger::D:D:D