..ok...Originally Posted by hcjilson
..ok...
Lots of good hard work here. The most advanced system does come with a cost. When we are no longer willing to pay that cost it will all go to spit. The other links show that Americans are unhealthy. This is true , due to personal freedoms and bad choices. It has nothing to do with the quality of available health care. You are advocating that it is best the government be involved to remedy this problem. ? The only way for that to work is make it against the law to be unhealthy, or refuse to treat people that choose unhealthy lifestyles. Maybe you have something there. I guess the only way to force us to live healthier is to allow us to die. Maybe they will just make fat people, meat eaters and smokers pay more. I don't know. No one has actually read the bill. Speaking as an unemployed student with preexisting conditions, I prefer to maintain my personal freedom and pay my own way.
Now come on, who's fat here? Speak up! Who's fat?
Johns,
There's a good reason for that, its the law, they have to take all comers, regardless of ability to pay. Currently the costs are being absorbed by the hospitals, and passed on to the health insurance companies in the form of higher rates, and to the uninsured who can pay, in the form of those still higher rates. It reaches lunacy when one stitch to the cheek of a 3 year old child brings a hospital charge of $5300.00 ( I can prove this to you because that's what happened to my daughter who was punished for using a provider outside CA. while she was living in MA.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, this upward spiral of health care costs is not sustainable. The first steps will be to contain them. The next steps will be to restore some balance.It is a complex problem and will require a solution that probably will be built as we go along. The first step making this a national goal has been taken. These folk who are saying it's socialism, trampling on their right of choice, etc.etc. are paying too much attention to Limbaugh and Fox.
"Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
Lord Byron
Take a photo tour of Cape Cod and the Islands!
www.capecodphotoalbum.com
Yeah, it's better to let big business handle it. I hear Luxoticca, Essilor, and Walmart are entering the healthcare industry. :hammer:
Have they been treated outside the US?
If you were willing to contribute as much to road maintenance as you pay for healthcare, the roads would be just fine...
I do believe that "public option" would be a choice, if you prefer staying with your private insurer you are welcome to.
I just don't understand all this clutching of the pearls.... Medicare and VA plans seem to work relatively well... why not have a public option?
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
Simple - it's because his political party is against it (can't fix it themselves) and he goes by rote.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
-Newsflash: Walmarts been in the healthcare industry for years.
-Two of them have worked overseas, but that experience was enough to convince them to not want to go anywhere else bu the US.
-I pay MUCH more for the roads than I do for healthcare.
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
In fairness, it has a lot more to do with BOTH political parties, than just one side. Again, the reason for this is the amount of influence that the insurance industry has "purchased" in Washington. That goes to both parties, so regardless of which one is currently the majority, the influence is still there. The problem in this case is that there are so many eye's on the representatives they're a little nervous.
As health care reform evolves, the public (single payer) option will take hold. Let's face it, its efficient! It may take some time to be implemented but the handwriting is on the wall and the insurance companies are scrambling. The is so much mis information being spread around, in an effort to confuse the electorate, that hard facts, and the truth are scarce. I blame the politicians of both parties for this.
"Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
Lord Byron
Take a photo tour of Cape Cod and the Islands!
www.capecodphotoalbum.com
Absolutely Harry!
The issue is that we desperately NEED healthcare reform!! I find that most people are paying much more attention to the public option part than the other much needed reform in the bill. The politics have hurt this whole process.
Think about this: With this bill, insurance companies can no longer refuse you for a pre-existing condition! Insurance companies can no longer refuse medical procedures or hold back needed medications! We should be HAPPY! REJOICING that we as Americans have FINALLY made some headway in HCR!!
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
Link?
You want a link to my HSA, my real estate taxes (local roads), my gas receipts (local/federal roads), my tax return and my toll receipts?
Yeah right.
Last year, my wife, my son, and myself paid 1,390.00 for our healthcare (cash). I paid more than $200 in turnpike tolls alone last month, fo rthe priviledge of driving on roads full of potholes.
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Geez, I pay almost that a month with our group plan.:shiner:
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
I would agree the our Health care system needs a massive overhaul I am just not sure that this is it. This health care reform is going to cost tax payers billions of dollars to insure the uninsured, this includes people that are in our country ILLEGALLY. I'm sorry but I have a very hard time supporting people that don't pay taxes and that are in the country illegally. The doctors will be paid the same regardless of their specialty and the government will set all doctors fees (we all know the high write-offs with medicare patients, this will only get worse). Cancer hospitals will ration care depending on the age of the patient and doctors will be able to write end-of-life orders. These are just a few things that I have heard are in the reform that passed the house. I'm sorry but this is not change that I can believe in. This is not the answer to our health care problem.
My government run Tricare seems to be working pretty well.
These people (including illegals) are currently getting healthcare, and our taxes, insurance premiums, or inflated healthcare costs are footing the bill. They're also typically getting the most expensive type of healthcare - emergency room care. If they were incorporated into a health plan, the cost of their healthcare would be less.
Currently, insurance companies set doctors' fees. They also have a responsibility to pay a profit to their stockholders, and their executives are paid much more than government managers.
That's just not true. Medicare is a government-run healthcare program. Does Medicare ration cancer care depending on the age of the patient?
That's also just plainly not true.
You may have heard those things, but they are falsehoods.
I would say that I heard it from a fairly reliable source. Judge David Kithil from Marble Falls Texas wrote an article in the River Cities Tribune on the 17th of August citing all of the things that I mentioned including the exact pages and paragraphs where they can be found in the bill. I did not come on here just spouting off random nonsense without checking my facts. Posted below is how I got all of my information.
"Judge David Kithil on Obamacare
WOW!! Lets hear it for the Judge! The article is in the Marble Falls , Texas newspaper. It was written by our former county judge, David Kithil. He voiced his opposition to HB 3200, and gave EXACT SPECIFICS, to include page and paragraph in the bill on why this Health Bill is BAD.
I called Thomas Edwards, Editor of the River Cities Tribune, to get legal permission to quote David Kithil's comments. He gave me that permission, so I can quote him. Here are excerpts from the article, giving EXACT pages and paragraphs in the bill and why it is so bad. You can forward this to all of your addressees. I think he hits everything right on the head and the opposition you may encounter cannot argue over these points:
JUDGE KITHIL: "I have reviewed selected sections of the bill and find it unbelievable that our Congress, led by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, could come up with a bill loaded with so many wrong-headed elements. We do need to reform the health insurance system in America in order to make coverage affordable and available to everyone. But, how many of us believe our federal government can manage a new program any better than the bankrupt Medicare program or the underfunded Social Security program? Both Republicans and Democrats are equally responsible for the financial mess of those two programs.
I am opposed to HB 3200 for a number of reasons. To start with, it is estimated that a federal bureaucracy of more than 150,000 new employees will be required to administer HB3200. That is an unacceptable expansion of a government that is already too intrusive in our lives. If we are going to hire 150,000 new employees, let's put them to work protecting our borders, fighting the massive drug problem and putting more law enforcement/firefighters out there."
NOW, here comes the good stuff: "Other problems I have with this bill include:
Page 50/section 152: The bill will provide insurance to all non-U.S. residents, even if they are here illegally.
Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an individual's bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts.
Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations (such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - ACORN).
Page 203/line 14-15: The tax imposed under this section will not be treated as a tax. (How could anybody in their right mind come up with that?)
Page 241 and 253: Doctors will all be paid the same regardless of specialty, and the government will set all doctors' fees.
Page 272. section 1145: Cancer hospital will ration care according to the patient's age.
Page 317 and 321: The government will impose a prohibition on hospital expansion; however, communities may petition for an exception.
Page 425, line 4-12: The government mandates advance-care planning consultations. Those on Social Security will be required to attend an "end-of-life planning" seminar every five years.
Page 429, line 13-25: The government will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order."
HAD ENOUGH???? Judge Kithil then goes on: " Finally, it is specifically stated this bill will not apply to members of Congress. Members of Congress are already exempt from the Social Security system and have a well-funded private plan that covers their retirement needs. If they were on our Social Security plan, I believe they would find a very quick "fix" to make the plan financially sound for the future."
Honorable David Kithil Marble Falls , Texas
All of the above should give you all the point blank ammo you need to support your opposition to Obamacare."
Here's the actual bill. I've gone through a couple of his accusations, and don't see what he's seeing. Why don't you go through and try.
Don't forget the Death Panels! Sheesh!
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Fear. It's what's for dinner.
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
My problem is people REFUSE to call out their politicians and special interest groups when they false promote fear and lies. And I am not just blaming the Dems for not calling out Republicans or vice versa. I am blaming the Republicans for not holding their Republicans accountable and the Democrats for not holding the Democrats accountable.
It is your fault when they lie, just as much as it is theirs.
I’m so glad to see that there are those on the Opti-board who are able to read through the 1900 plus pages of legalize and comprehend all of the different nuances of not only what the bill will do for us but also how all the little sections relate to each other.
But I have a better idea. Why don't you "Spexvet" (who has so obviously studied the bill with such diligence and in great detail), find the sections that dispute what the honorable Judge (who most likely doesn't have your skill in interpreting a legal document) published in his public commentary.
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
"actual bill" ? Ha. They had to temporarily remove some items so that key
"blue dogs' could vote in favor. We do not know what the "actual bill" will look like.
I have some beach front property in Arizona you may be interested in.
Why don't you find the parts that prove the judge right? Who has the burden of proof here?
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
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