Freeform Lenses

[optomusprime]

Are freeform lenses (even the budget type) better to adapt to/provide better vision than good "conventional" lenses like essilor comfort, hoya wide etc?

The reason I ask, is that some of the freeform lenses are a lot cheaper than comfort and hoya wide. A colleague said freeform is always better, even budget ones. But I always thought what u pay for is what u get!

(the budget freeform lens that I was thinking of using is the jaikudo wideview)

[OCP]

Are freeform lenses (even the budget type) better to adapt to/provide better vision than good "conventional" lenses like essilor comfort, hoya wide etc?

The reason I ask, is that some of the freeform lenses are a lot cheaper than comfort and hoya wide. A colleague said freeform is always better, even budget ones. But I always thought what u pay for is what u get!

(the budget freeform lens that I was thinking of using is the jaikudo wideview)

Good question.
Especially first generation of Freeform lenses was very bad and many clients prefer their conventional lenses. You can still buy very cheap Freeform lenses that has been done with bad software, and this will be okay for some customers, but for many it will not work out.
If you go with the branded freeform from, Shamir, Essilor, Rodenstock, Zeiss, Hoya and BBGR I think your customers will get more satisfired with Freeform than with conventional design.
I dont know the Jaikudo design, but it´s for sure not their own design, and I think they buy the license from a different manufacturer.

[Uncle Fester]

Are freeform lenses (even the budget type) better to adapt to/provide better vision than good "conventional" lenses like essilor comfort, hoya wide etc?

The reason I ask, is that some of the freeform lenses are a lot cheaper than comfort and hoya wide. A colleague said freeform is always better, even budget ones. But I always thought what u pay for is what u get!

(the budget freeform lens that I was thinking of using is the jaikudo wideview)

This is what we are currently trying to figure out!

It's all about the design. A bad design will not translate to a great freeform imo.

Will the cheaper freeform in the same power work better? Maybe. It depends on power, base curve and the greatest unknown-- patient expectations so it's a bit of a crap shoot.

Sorry I don't have any experience with the Jai Kudo as I believe it is not sold in the States.

This discussion took place earlier here on Optiboard. It may be of interest-

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...light=jai+Kudo

Welcome aboard!:cheers:

[AWTECH]

Are freeform lenses (even the budget type) better to adapt to/provide better vision than good "conventional" lenses like essilor comfort, hoya wide etc?

The reason I ask, is that some of the freeform lenses are a lot cheaper than comfort and hoya wide. A colleague said freeform is always better, even budget ones. But I always thought what u pay for is what u get!

(the budget freeform lens that I was thinking of using is the jaikudo wideview)

We have been producing ICE-TECH freeform lenses for almost 5 years, making our own software for lens design as well as processing. We have developed a great deal of our own processing equipment. We only process using digital surfacing. I can give you a lot more information if you PM me or send me an e-mail.

[MacCon]

Freeform lenses are much better now and worth a try. They are not always better than conventionally surfaced lenses but if manufactured properly they will have less circular aberrations.

I believe Jai kudo are using a leading freeform design and have rebranded it as their own. As far as I know it's cheaper to produce a freeform lens because they work from semi finished SV blanks instead of progressive blanks. The big boys are ripping us off with their technological chatter!

I think the Hoya id would be the best freeform as they surface both sides but it is not cheap.

Try the Jai Kudos, see what you think.

[OCP]

Freeform lenses are much better now and worth a try. They are not always better than conventionally surfaced lenses but if manufactured properly they will have less circular aberrations.

I believe Jai kudo are using a leading freeform design and have rebranded it as their own. As far as I know it's cheaper to produce a freeform lens because they work from semi finished SV blanks instead of progressive blanks. The big boys are ripping us off with their technological chatter!

I think the Hoya id would be the best freeform as they surface both sides but it is not cheap.

Try the Jai Kudos, see what you think.

Hi MacCon.
Who has told you that a Bi-progressive (old design + new design) is better than a 100 % back side progressive? Did you know that Shamir developed this 6 years ago for J&J (Definity) and rejected this method because they could do a lot better with a 100 % back side progression as Autograph II.?
I guess you did´t know. You can personalise a back side progressive 100%, and you cant do much with a bi-progressive because of the standard front surface (yes the ID front surface is standard design, just as conventional lenses).

[RT]

yes the ID front surface is 100% standard as konventional lenses

Not true.

[OCP]

Not true.

Please feel free to tell me how Hoya individualize the front surface.
Sounds like you know more of this than me.

[Uncle Fester]

This long thread from a couple years ago may be an enlightening read for those who missed it-

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...highlight=Hoya

I found pg.2 post #39 by Carl Zeiss Visions Darryl Meister especially interesting.

To me anyway this thread was a turning point in my willingness to embrace digitally compensated lenses. (That and VSP would redo them no charge;))

[MacCon]

I have been informed (hopefully reialbly) that the Hoya ID is freeform on both surfaces. The distance is on the backside but they use freeform generators on the front and back for the imtermediate and reading add.

Check with your Hoya rep, I may be incorrect.

Fact is that conventional surfacing can for some prescriptions produce a thinner lens, it may not be totally personalised but if the quality of manufacturing is good most wearers will not know the difference.

Getting back to the point, should you try a budget freeform? If its well made then yes just remember moving someone from something like comfort to a softer design may not work and budget companies don't always offer the same services that the market leaders offer. That said there are savings to be had and if the lens is well made its win win.

[OCP]

This long thread from a couple years ago may be an enlightening read for those who missed it-

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...highlight=Hoya

I found pg.2 post #39 by Carl Zeiss Visions Darryl Meister especially interesting.

To me anyway this thread was a turning point in my willingness to embrace digitally compensated lenses. (That and VSP would redo them no charge;))

This thread is very interesting, but I must say, must of it are based on the knowledge in 2007. Freeform technology has improved a lot since then, and you cant compare the latest freeform products with the designs.
I would still mean that the newest generation of Freeform will blow away most of the conventional lenses. As you know, some people cant feel the difference from any lenses at all and should not be counted.

About the ID from Hoya. I´m 99 % sure it´s been made on normal Satis Loh generator, and therefor the front surface is standard and for sure not individualized.

[Georg Mayer]

As one of the first companies developing FreeForm lenses and machines I have to comment on this subject.

1) In some cases conventional Progressive lenses are produced on a FreeForm capable generator and advertised as FreeForm and sold cheaply.

2) Non individualized FreeForm Progressives are significantly better in prescriptions where the best optical calculation would require a base curve in between two given base curves of the old fixed system. Therefor these lenses are from case to case equal but more often better then conventional Progressiv lenses.

3) Truly individualized Progressiv lenses of reputable manufacturers design, measured, made and fitted accurately, will blow any conventional Progressiv straight out of the water.

Whenever FreeForm is advertised, try to understand the issue exactly, there's a lot of fog around.

Coming to the cost aspect, FreeForm machinery is always fairly new and expensive and needs much more accurate service and settings to keep tolerances within limits. If neglected you will produce worse FreeForm Progressiv lenses than the old Base Curve Progressiv lens off your old mill would have been. Therefor we only allow the production of our FreeForm designs in licensed Labs which have invested in a suitable control tool to verify that the generated surface is actually what the calculation intended it to be. We have been there, done it.

Having said all of this, a real individualized FreeForm Progressiv lens will be more expensive in manufacture and must therefor sell at a higher level than a conventional one. But the real visual benefit is huge and obvious to the customer, so there really shouldn't be a problem?


Georg Mayer
Rodenstock - Munich

[Jacqui]

I looked at the Jaikudo lenses and the less expensive ones really look a lot like Crossbows.

http://www.crossbowsoptical.com/index.htm

[Barry Santini]

IMHO, the advantages of individualized lenses, well-made and prescribed individualized lenses, are the single best tool indie ECPs have to do battle with the commodization of Rx eyewear by the internet.

For my money, I'm trying to "seed" every client I can with both the SV, wraps and the progressives.

Even if it means taking a reduced "multiple" on the mark-up.

Because I firmly believe that both the initial WOW, as well as the potential subsequent "WHOA" (when that same client doen't get them elsewhere), are the best one-two punch we got toward ensuring our future survival in this dynamic marketplace.

Bottom line: The interent will reduce our classic (and comfortable) margins. So why not lay the ground work -within this sea of change - to ensure client loyalty for your prosperity?

I, as they say in poker, "am all in!"

Barry

[JanMueller]

When it comes to FreeForm things are difficult. I love personalised ones like Rodenstock Impression and FreeSign. I hate non personalised ones like the WideView (have a look at my thread), especially when fitted to hyperopes.
I guess for the manufacturer it is easier to go into the FreeForm league because the need of many semi finished blanks is obsolete...

[optomusprime]

hi Jan, I read your thread, thanks. Have you tried the jai kudo zenix yet?

[gmanlook]

If you want the cheaper free-form why not go to the Kodak Unique? It is inexpensive, available in 1.74, trivex, polaroid and overall a good lens...we use it all the time...check into it. Gary

[optomusprime]

thanks Gary, will give it ago!

[jefe]

Try the Seiko freeforms (Succeed or Supercede) or the Shamir Element. The wholesale prices I pay for those lenses are, depending on the material, less than what I pay for such lenses as the Shamir Creation and GT2 (in materials other than CR-39). Customers seem to like them, and they appreciate the difference between freeform and conventional lenses when they're shown the Seiko literature.

[sumit082]

Rodenstock has a cheaper freeform pal known as ILD and it works well, available in three fitting heights 15 17 19 and i have been fitting more of ILD instead of comfort and getting very good results too.:)

[Georg Mayer]

it rather stands for a range/family of lenses, more details are available from Alan Yuster at ProFit Optix in Florida.

Georg Mayer
Rodenstock Munich

[majucalicut]

I think sumit082 meant ILD itself. Here ILD stands for Individual Lens Design. A freeform progressive from Rodenstock for developing countries which have a refracive index of 1.60. Rodenstock ILD is dispensed by opticians in Kerala, India with full satisfaction. It have a good feedback

[xiaowei]

I think sumit082 meant ILD itself. Here ILD stands for Individual Lens Design. A freeform progressive from Rodenstock for developing countries which have a refracive index of 1.60. Rodenstock ILD is dispensed by opticians in Kerala, India with full satisfaction. It have a good feedback

Yep, it shouldn´t be ILT, because AFAIK this is Rodenstocks TOP product, in direct competition to the Zeiss Individual or Shamir Autograph etc., not on the cheaper side

[CuriousP]

I think sumit082 meant ILD itself. Here ILD stands for Individual Lens Design. A freeform progressive from Rodenstock for developing countries which have a refracive index of 1.60. Rodenstock ILD is dispensed by opticians in Kerala, India with full satisfaction. It have a good feedback

In India, do the optic labs use some sort of lens design calculation engine/software to get accurate Rx measurements on the blanks or do they use some other procedure. The procedure I am familiar with in the USA is use freeform design vendors (like shamir software or Seiko software) to calculate Rx within the parameters sent to it. Is the same technology used in India?

[Jacqui]

It would have to be the same technology, I know of no other way to do it.