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Thread: Anyone interested in learning how to refract

  1. #1
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    Anyone interested in learning how to refract

    I am currently semi-retired with over 30 years experience, started off in a lab and worked and schooled myself to OD.

    I would teach all the "tricks of the tradre" usung both manual and a huvitz network lane.

    Teach how to use new lcd charts, and how truely powerful all this technology can be.

    I guarantee that I could make opticians better "refactionists' as the ODs with their medical approach, and MDs all see it as a nuisance, thats funny, the reason the patient came " I cant see" receives the least attention

    Wondering about legalities and how i could support my semi retired need for some income. But I always wanted to teach and here I am, Eastern LI.

    Curious about legalities, interest, etc. or should I just write a book?

    Thanks in Advance

    Mike Katz

  2. #2
    Doh! braheem24's Avatar
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    You may want to contact Warren Mcdonald, PhD.

    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/member.php?u=109

    Wonderful guy, Try not to be seduced by his southern charm.

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Hey, I'm on LI, and want to sign up for lessons right now!

    Where do I send the tuition?

    Barry

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    In WA here Opticians are REQUIRED to be able to refract. If your willing to travel you may have an audience.

    Sharpstick

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    OK Now we're talking...

    Yes, if there is not enough demand in one geographic area, somehow organize with local groups, we need a chair and stand or two, and an area for didactic material.

    But shoot, I'd have to be out of town for periods of time, shame really tell the wife, she'll probably throw a party, just hope it doesnt clash with mine :)

    Let me throw out one more thought:

    I am almost ashamed to be a part of the profession of optometry as I see it pacticed in general, not to paint all with one brush, there are some good guys out there, but most are bored wannabe MDs severely disappointed with their loan and working conditions.

    But that's because they dont develope the combination of behaviors and attitude needed to give the patient what they need. You need to show honesty, caring, you must be very obervant and always thinking out of the box. The practice of eye care, whatever we call it, but it is lacking today , is an art and science and we need to keep the two in balance. Any time you interact with the human body, especially the brain and the way people think, you need to be adaptable, solve their problem, properly communicate, and in these days of price dependency, one should use the newest and best technology to provide the best eyecare , it is the best investment you can make.

    I guess the number of sessions is dependent on who I am teaching ie opticians vs technicians,and what the market would bear for such a thing.
    I would think groups of 4 2 chairs, and patient then examiner rotation.

    Sounds kinda cool to me, lets see more input so I can fine tune the concept some more.

    Regards

    Mike Katz

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Please count me in!

    Barry

  7. #7
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    I may be interested!

    Heck, I bet Barry will let me sleep under his car for a night or two!

    Hey........wait jut a minute! I get the feeling that I got to bring my own phoropter, trial lens set, stand, chairs, copy of Clinical Refraction, trial lens frame, retinscope, occluder and just about everything else!

    Here I thought that my good looks, dapper dress, and charming personality would be enough! What the heck!

  8. #8
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    Maybe just retinoscope

    I'll supply the rest , and for the festivities, you got me .oh no.....


    I could even provide the car to sleep under, compact mid sized or full sedan?

    Mike Katz

  9. #9
    Ophthalmic Optician
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    Sign me up as well!:cheers:
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

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    ATO Member GAgal's Avatar
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    I think that this is a great idea! Also, anyone who takes their ABO advanced has to pass a section on refraction and a course like this may help a lot. I had to go to an OD friend of mine (my doctor wouldn't help me, thought I was trying to take his job ) to get help on that part of the test.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    In WA here Opticians are REQUIRED to be able to refract. If your willing to travel you may have an audience.

    Sharpstick
    Why is that, when in fact refracting is strickly a part of the OD's/OMD'S job. You can not write a script, so why is it apart of gaining an optician license in your state?

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    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    In NY optician can not write the script for glasses but can fit contact lenses! I guess you dont need to refract when you fit Cls!;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESuffolkIDoc View Post
    Yes, if there is not enough demand in one geographic area, somehow organize with local groups, we need a chair and stand or two, and an area for didactic material.

    But shoot, I'd have to be out of town for periods of time, shame really tell the wife, she'll probably throw a party, just hope it doesnt clash with mine :)

    Let me throw out one more thought:

    I am almost ashamed to be a part of the profession of optometry as I see it pacticed in general, not to paint all with one brush, there are some good guys out there, but most are bored wannabe MDs severely disappointed with their loan and working conditions.

    But that's because they dont develope the combination of behaviors and attitude needed to give the patient what they need. You need to show honesty, caring, you must be very obervant and always thinking out of the box. The practice of eye care, whatever we call it, but it is lacking today , is an art and science and we need to keep the two in balance. Any time you interact with the human body, especially the brain and the way people think, you need to be adaptable, solve their problem, properly communicate, and in these days of price dependency, one should use the newest and best technology to provide the best eyecare , it is the best investment you can make.

    I guess the number of sessions is dependent on who I am teaching ie opticians vs technicians,and what the market would bear for such a thing.
    I would think groups of 4 2 chairs, and patient then examiner rotation.

    Sounds kinda cool to me, lets see more input so I can fine tune the concept some more.

    Regards

    Mike Katz
    Sounds like you want to throw your whole profession under the train just to appeal to the average Optiboarder so you can sell your wares.

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Sounds like you want to throw your whole profession under the train just to appeal to the average Optiboarder so you can sell your wares.

    Or you might be one of the one type he's talking about.
    As a note, I'm not the least bit interested in learning to refract as it would be a useless tool for me, as I would not be able to use it legally.And I do have a pretty good idea of what to do after working for ODs for 32 of my 36 years. But still, knowing how to could be useful for many others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonLensmanWV View Post
    I'm not the least bit interested in learning to refract as it would be a useless tool for me, as I would not be able to use it legally.
    I have no desire to refract either, but I'd love to take the course to know the background and the theory behind it. I don't plan on performing surgery either, but I keep many reference books on anatomy and physiology of the eye just to be able to have some background on what my customers might be experiencing.
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  16. #16
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    I think that I will wait until I can take the class given by the well repsected Warren McDonald, PhD.


    :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Sounds like you want to throw your whole profession under the train just to appeal to the average Optiboarder so you can sell your wares.
    The guy is retired and teaching refraction is done at every opticianry school that I know of to date, plus their are educators in opticianry that already teach refraction as mentioned, Dr Warren McDonald. To be honest with you if I had to spend my money with an educator it won't be with an optometrist it would be with an optician, like Warren. The reality of the situation is that this poster had to mention that he does not believe in the same things hat the rest of the OD's believe in, no doubt to gain credibility in his refraction skills. Most OD's do seem to be going more to wards the medical side of the profession and ignoring the most critical part of the exam relevant to the patient's cheif complaint, the refraction.
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  18. #18
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    Refraction

    Folks,
    Refraction can be a great ally for any Optician, whether or not they ever refract. I have trained hundreds over the years, and all indicate they are better Opticians for their efforts. I encourage anyone to learn these skills, and applaud our OD colleague here for the effort. Unfortunately when we start these discussions it always turns to professional politics. Mine is better than yours is not how we need to approach this issue. Optometry is a fine profession, and ODs should be proud. They have come a long way, and Opticians need to take a lesson from them and plan for our future. We need all the Os to work together! Imagine an OD and Optician working together for a change! While I realize some do this successfully, the professions should to communicate to work out an effective relationship.

    I have another course developing as well here in NC. Contact me if interested, and I wil be pleased to provide you with tentative information. But in the mean time, learn SOMETHING! Opticianry is more than measuring a PD, taking a seg height, and inviting them back. It is more than simply sales, and can be a lot more than it is. I am thrilled to see those on the board who really want to learn, and encourage you to get started.

    Warren
    Last edited by wmcdonald; 04-30-2009 at 11:11 AM.

  19. #19
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Well said Warren!

    I would agree wholeheartedly that refraction is not a requirement of opticianry - just as psychology isn't a requirement. But is it IMMENSELY helpful to a greater and perhaps more complete understanding of the patient sitting in front of you, and their own unique visual needs.

    DO it.

    You won't regret it! And way to go all opticians who are ALWAYS looking to better themselves! Keep that voracious appetite for knowledge going strong!

    Bri~

    :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonLensmanWV View Post
    Or you might be one of the one type he's talking about.
    As a note, I'm not the least bit interested in learning to refract as it would be a useless tool for me, as I would not be able to use it legally.And I do have a pretty good idea of what to do after working for ODs for 32 of my 36 years. But still, knowing how to could be useful for many others.
    I have no problem with opticians learning refraction. It's just that this doc seems to think that he can gain favor with Optiboarders by disparaging ODs. If you have a product to sell, then sell it. Don't step on somebodys neck just to make a sale.

  21. #21
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    Oh my gosh, the emotions flaring..

    The "split" in optometry between those that put great emphasis on quality refraction and those that see much to the pathology side and use a cookbook approach to refraction.

    There is nothing new about this, but the profession has gone the medical route, check the curriculums, check the CE courses, see the number of ODs that take a residency, and then after all this cost they can be very unhappy doing refraction. Not all, I said dont paint with a wide brush, but the things I see and hear over the years, ODs who wont recheck CLs after collecting fitting fee, refusing to check Rxes even after optician does adjustments , neutralize etc. Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of great people out there both opticians and ODs, and there also creeps.

    I am not one of the creeps. I have nothing to sell except knowledge to anyone that wants to learn. ODs cant be the sole provider of eyecare, MDs have mostly dumped it to techs , many with zero training, and ODs would like to dump it ( its how they make their money and THIS OD takes it very seriously.

    So, I am not an endorser of the war between the 3 O's, I am a person of peace, and feel that govt and licensure cant put a lid over your liberty to learn.And yes, learning how a persons problems relating to vision can be solved can be fascinating.

    And if your state suddenly permits it, then you wait in line to join the party late, whereas knowledge always seems to come in handy to me


    Mike Katz

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    Bad address email on file jherman's Avatar
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    thanks for putting the patient first

    here's some green:D




    Quote Originally Posted by ESuffolkIDoc View Post
    I am currently semi-retired with over 30 years experience, started off in a lab and worked and schooled myself to OD.

    I would teach all the "tricks of the tradre" usung both manual and a huvitz network lane.

    Teach how to use new lcd charts, and how truely powerful all this technology can be.

    I guarantee that I could make opticians better "refactionists' as the ODs with their medical approach, and MDs all see it as a nuisance, thats funny, the reason the patient came " I cant see" receives the least attention

    Wondering about legalities and how i could support my semi retired need for some income. But I always wanted to teach and here I am, Eastern LI.

    Curious about legalities, interest, etc. or should I just write a book?

    Thanks in Advance

    Mike Katz

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Sounds like you want to throw your whole profession under the train just to appeal to the average Optiboarder so you can sell your wares.
    fjpod,
    sorry, but I am going to have to side with ESuffolkIDoc on this one. I too have noticed a decline over the last few years in quality of routine care given by some (but not all) in Optometry.

    No offense to the thousands of OD's who are admirably concerned with every patient but I have seen a lot of newer docs lack some commitment to patient care . Its seems to me that many newer OD's came into the field because 10 years ago Forbes rated Optometry one of the 10 best career fields, and not from a desire and passion for patients or optics.

    the change is visible on our end if its not visible on yours.

    Sharpstick

  24. #24
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    I would add that I consider RX trouble shooting one of the primary responsibilities of Opticianry, and refraction is very helpful after examining the eyewear and finding nothing wrong.

    Its also necessary for over refractions in contact lens fittings.

    Sharpstick

    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    Well said Warren!

    I would agree wholeheartedly that refraction is not a requirement of opticianry - just as psychology isn't a requirement. But is it IMMENSELY helpful to a greater and perhaps more complete understanding of the patient sitting in front of you, and their own unique visual needs.

    DO it.

    You won't regret it! And way to go all opticians who are ALWAYS looking to better themselves! Keep that voracious appetite for knowledge going strong!

    Bri~

    :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

  25. #25
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    Warren,
    I am a big fan of your posts, and big fan of your efforts to educate Opticians. We need more in our industry like you.

    Thanks for being on Optiboard.

    ***(no offense to anyone else is who is among the extremely intelligent and competant posters on this flame fest (oops, I meant forum) that is Optiboard. Please don't flame me for complimenting Warren.)

    Sharpstick

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Folks,
    Refraction can be a great ally for any Optician, whether or not they ever refract. I have trained hundreds over the years, and all indicate they are better Opticians for their efforts. I encourage anyone to learn these skills, and applaud our OD colleague here for the effort. Unfortunately when we start these discussions it always turns to professional politics. Mine is better than yours is not how we need to approach this issue. Optometry is a fine profession, and ODs should be proud. They have come a long way, and Opticians need to take a lesson from them and plan for our future. We need all the Os to work together! Imagine an OD and Optician working together for a change! While I realize some do this successfully, the professions should to communicate to work out an effective relationship.

    I have another course developing as well here in NC. Contact me if interested, and I wil be pleased to provide you with tentative information. But in the mean time, learn SOMETHING! Opticianry is more than measuring a PD, taking a seg height, and inviting them back. It is more than simply sales, and can be a lot more than it is. I am thrilled to see those on the board who really want to learn, and encourage you to get started.

    Warren

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