Anti-Reflection: All or nothing approach???

[DrNeyecare]

Its been alittle over 2 years now since I bought my office and practiced in the private sector. In the past 6 months, I have been seeing patients starting to come back for their comprehensive exams and to get new glasses. In the past 2 years, we have been been offering 2 levels of AR to our patients, Standard (Zeiss SET) and Premium (Teflon and Crizal Alize).

I am proud to say that 80% of our patients had ordered some type of AR, and about 60% of those patients ordered the premium. :)

What I have found with our returning patients, are that the patients who have complaints about AR are those that ordered the Standard AR. Their lenses had scratches and just looked nasty. Many of these patients did not want to upgrade this year to the premium, and many of them didn't want AR at all anymore.

On the other hand, those that made compliments like "I actually saw better thru these lenses than before," ordered the Premium. Their lenses also looked pretty good, with little scratching.

These are pretty obvious observations....

My questions are....

Would you think its a good idea to offer ONLY premium AR? ie, SuperHiVision, Crizal Avance, Teflon, etc??

Would this give patients the impression that our office is "a rip off" b/c our prices for AR is high ($100 for premium) without offering them a bargain priced AR also?

Would we be doing patients who can't afford a Premium AR a deservice by eliminating the option for a low priced Standard AR?

Would continueing to offer Standard AR hurt the reputation of an office if patients think that our AR is junk?

I'm leaning towards offering ONLY premium AR now just so that I don't have to hear all these comments about how bad the standard AR is!!!!

[For-Life]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Lower end ARs give AR a bad name and hurt the image of what can be a really good product.

We only offer the premium. It does put us ahead on price, compared to the competition who sells the cheaper stuff, we we have a proven product and they do not.

[Jubilee]

This is what we do. I simply explain to the patients that I only offer the premium coatings, since the standard required much more care than the premium. I continue to explain to them that the premium coatings all combine their antireflective layer with a hard coat and provides an easy to clean layer on top.. Resulting in lenses that are more scratch resistant and easier to clean than the standard coated lenses. Simply put, I would rather put you in a coating that will hold up and be easy to care for, than put you in an earlier version that may not hold up and turn you off on the benefits of the coating.

So far I haven't had any bulking by patients with that explaination and while some might decide that paying $X more is out of the budget, we both are much happier with the purchase.

[chip anderson]

I also find out what the patient is going to do with the glasses after purchase. Many only use them to find thier contact lenes with, they don't need AR. Some are mechanics, machinist, and house painters and farmers, the're better off without it.
Seeing a little better is one thing, but if the lenses are going to deteriorate from dirt, dust, ground up metal, or chemicals in a short period of time. Seeing better for a short period followed by long period of lousy vision due to AR failure, you and the are better off forgoing the extra bucks.

Chip

[Chris Ryser]

I'm leaning towards offering ONLY premium AR now just so that I don't have to hear all these comments about how bad the standard AR is!!!!

If you are going to do that, you should also sell only premium type lenses and premium type frames.

If you don't offer the choice between best and most expensive and less than the best and less expensive you will loose the patients that just simply can not afford the prices for the best. However you might increase patients that can afford only the best, but that might take some time.

You could also turn the argument to your advantage. The scratched AR coated lenses can be stripped of the AR coating in 10 seconds or less, right in you office, after which they will have no more scratches, as they are all located on the hard coat between AR and the basic lens surface. You actually have a new lens underneath the coating.

Following that you can tint these lenses in another 60 seconds right in your office. You can do it even while patient waits.
You can charge for this service or give it to the patient for free as the actual cost is nearly nothing beside a couple of minutes of actual manual work.

This way you have another way out of your dilemma between the $ 100.00 extra charge for premium AR coatings and others that some patients could afford. If you can save the lenses as spares after two years and they will look and act as new lenses.

I believe that being able to save a lens for further use is one of the best advertisings you can offer your patients, because you have given them a service they appreciate.

[DrNeyecare]

This is what we do. I simply explain to the patients that I only offer the premium coatings, since the standard required much more care than the premium. I continue to explain to them that the premium coatings all combine their antireflective layer with a hard coat and provides an easy to clean layer on top.. Resulting in lenses that are more scratch resistant and easier to clean than the standard coated lenses. Simply put, I would rather put you in a coating that will hold up and be easy to care for, than put you in an earlier version that may not hold up and turn you off on the benefits of the coating.

So far I haven't had any bulking by patients with that explaination and while some might decide that paying $X more is out of the budget, we both are much happier with the purchase.

We definetly do that. We make sure we stress the stronger scratch coat and the extra hydrophobic/oligophobic coatings on the Premium AR but some patients still opt for the lower priced one, and return unhappy....
So that's why I'm contemplating just not offering it at all...

[DrNeyecare]

If you are going to do that, you should also sell only premium type lenses and premium type frames.

If you don't offer the choice between best and most expensive and less than the best and less expensive you will loose the patients that just simply can not afford the prices for the best. However you might increase patients that can afford only the best, but that might take some time.

You could also turn the argument to your advantage. The scratched AR coated lenses can be stripped of the AR coating in 10 seconds or less, right in you office, after which they will have no more scratches, as they are all located on the hard coat between AR and the basic lens surface. You actually have a new lens underneath the coating.

Following that you can tint these lenses in another 60 seconds right in your office. You can do it even while patient waits.
You can charge for this service or give it to the patient for free as the actual cost is nearly nothing beside a couple of minutes of actual manual work.

This way you have another way out of your dilemma between the $ 100.00 extra charge for premium AR coatings and others that some patients could afford. If you can save the lenses as spares after two years and they will look and act as new lenses.

I believe that being able to save a lens for further use is one of the best advertisings you can offer your patients, because you have given them a service they appreciate.

I LOVE THAT!!! However, I don't have the equipment or knowledge to strip AR coats. :( Is that an AR Stripping course 101?

[Chris Ryser]

I simply explain to the patients that I only offer the premium coatings, since the standard required much more care than the premium.

..................and while some might decide that paying $X more is out of the budget, we both are much happier with the purchase.

That sounds like the car dealer that sells only high end cars because they have many more positive features than the car at half price.

I still wonder who the heck out there making AR coatings is still in business,.................... because all we hear on OptiBoard that everybody only sells Premium even to the jobless, the foreclosed ones, the retired that lost half their pension, the ones on food stamps and many more reasons for millions of people caught in the economic squeeze.

[Chris Ryser]

I LOVE THAT!!! However, I don't have the equipment or knowledge to strip AR coats. :( Is that an AR Stripping course 101?

AR Stripping Course......(in short right here and now)

1) equipment needed ---------> 1 tupperware container with snap on lid.
Pour finished solution into container and close lid at all times when not in use. Will do about 50-60 pairs. Place close to sink when in use.

Step 1) Remove lenses from frame. Place the with + side down into solution. After 4 to 6 seconds remove with plastic tweezers or a spoon and rinse under water and check them, if not fully dissolved into solution for another 3 to 4 seconds and rinse and check again, they should be done. Any residues you can now remove with alcohol or acetone. You are now left with the hard coat only.

If there are scratches on the hard coat go to Step 2.

Step 2) Place lenses again in stripper and leave them for 1 to 2 hours, check after that period. If hard coat is gone, you are done, otherwise place back into solution until you see the clear virgin lens.

Now you can tint the lens in another 60 seconds.

See at : http://optochemicals.com

[obxeyeguy]

Or just soak them in greased lightning for 4-6 hours, use the left-overs to clean your lab floor, and voila, new lenses. I have used this for a while, and the only thing it won't strip is the newer bonded AR's.

Not an endorsement of any product, and I do not guarantee the same results, but it works for me. No gloves, no harse acids, just results.

[AdmiralKnight]

We only sell the "premium" ARs. I use quotes because I don't like to think of AR as a Bells and Whistles kinda thing. It's something we use to improve the optics of our lenses. When a newer, better version comes out, why would you use something you know is inferior? To me, if you put someone in a poor AR, they will most likely have a poor experiance with it, and wont want AR ever again. Put someone in a good AR, improve their experiance, and they won't care about the cost.

Besides, there are enough places (chains etc) selling bad AR. I don't need to be grouped in with them.

[sharpstick777]

Dr Nye,
Congratulations on two things...
1) your A/R success... 80% is really good
2) your desire to do what is best for your patients.

We started offering a standard A/R this year as our contact lenss patients skyrocked and A/R sales dipped a tiny bit. About 20% of or patients order the standard and they like having the option even when they don't However, we use really good standard A/Rs.

I think your strategy is good, but you need a better A/R than Zeiss SET. There are a ton of very good A/R's out there that 3x more scratch resistant at an even lower price than SET. I use Resolutions A/R with great success on finished SV lenses, for Progressives we use Suresite, also without any issues. For premium we use Crizal Alize (considering upgrading to Avance this year now that it has improved).

Our warranty return % with Crizal Alize is 3%, with Stand. A/R its 4-5%, which I consider acceptable (we offer a 1 yr/ 1 time warranty).

We actually offer free A/R to those patients who had a bad experience and don't want A/R again (about 10 pts a year), but they come back and get A/R the next time.

I personally test all our A/R's by leaving a pair of glasses in my glove box (no case) with a different A/R on each side, some nuts and bolts, an couple of old wrenches, coins, toys (mine), and some keys and let them roll around for a month or two. Not scientific but very real world.

I would continue your strategy, just use a better standard A/R even if it means switching labs. Also, we price our A/R at 2X cost on premium A/R, and $25 less than that for Standard A/R.

Sharpstick

In the past 2 years, we have been been offering 2 levels of AR to our patients, Standard (Zeiss SET) and Premium (Teflon and Crizal Alize).

I am proud to say that 80% of our patients had ordered some type of AR, and about 60% of those patients ordered the premium. :)

What I have found with our returning patients, are that the patients who have complaints about AR are those that ordered the Standard AR. Would continueing to offer Standard AR hurt the reputation of an office if patients think that our AR is junk?

I'm leaning towards offering ONLY premium AR now just so that I don't have to hear all these comments about how bad the standard AR is!!!!

[chip anderson]

Chris:
You left out the part about protective eyewear and rather good rubber gloves. Dangerous stuff and all that.

Chip

[always curious]

Its been alittle over 2 years now since I bought my office and practiced in the private sector. In the past 6 months, I have been seeing patients starting to come back for their comprehensive exams and to get new glasses. In the past 2 years, we have been been offering 2 levels of AR to our patients, Standard (Zeiss SET) and Premium (Teflon and Crizal Alize).

I am proud to say that 80% of our patients had ordered some type of AR, and about 60% of those patients ordered the premium. :)

What I have found with our returning patients, are that the patients who have complaints about AR are those that ordered the Standard AR. Their lenses had scratches and just looked nasty. Many of these patients did not want to upgrade this year to the premium, and many of them didn't want AR at all anymore.

On the other hand, those that made compliments like "I actually saw better thru these lenses than before," ordered the Premium. Their lenses also looked pretty good, with little scratching.

These are pretty obvious observations....

My questions are....

Would you think its a good idea to offer ONLY premium AR? ie, SuperHiVision, Crizal Avance, Teflon, etc??

Would this give patients the impression that our office is "a rip off" b/c our prices for AR is high ($100 for premium) without offering them a bargain priced AR also?

Would we be doing patients who can't afford a Premium AR a deservice by eliminating the option for a low priced Standard AR?

Would continueing to offer Standard AR hurt the reputation of an office if patients think that our AR is junk?

I'm leaning towards offering ONLY premium AR now just so that I don't have to hear all these comments about how bad the standard AR is!!!!

I have had the same problems with this ar stuff for years. working for walmart and other retailors totally shot my idea of ar down the drain!!
actually I refused to sell it. I have to be able to sleep @ night too; you know. So heres my answer for you, I now work for a private practice, and for a doctor who actually cares about his patients, and their wallet. We sell Hoyas superhivision for $85 ( that does have an unlimited warranty) and essliors' avance with scotchguard for $100. The only reason I am confident in selling the scotch guard is because all employees get a free pair of glasses every year, while ia'm 20/20 I have a pair of planos with the scotchguard and transitions. my frame of choice is a versace with the spring hindges ( holds up for the patients heads that are bigger then mine) I ask them to put on my glasses man or woman- and then i ask do you see how the ar (scothguard) just clears up the picture? (which it really does!) And then I also point out the fact how cosmetic wise it is beautiful how you can only see my eyes as if there is no lense in the frame. and if they are interested in the trans i have them put my glasses on and go outside with them,; come back in- look in the mirror- of course they didnt even notice the lense had changed color, then I put the glasses back on snd continue buisness,- and they are able to see just how fast/or slow the trans go back to clear. Hope this helps. My Idea of ar along with a lot of others WAS that it is.. a pile of crap;) Thank you avance scotch for showing me diff!!

[jefe]

I offer three AR levels: basic, better, and best. I tell patients the basic AR is best for those who handle their belongings well because it requires that the lenses be treated extra-gently. The next level is more scratch-resistant and has a 1x/1 yr. free replacement w/scratching due to normal wear-and-tear. The top-tier AR is both easy-clean (slick) and scratch-resistant and has the same warranty. I recommend those who are especially hard on their glasses in general avoid AR.

This approach has worked well.

[Chris Ryser]

Chris:
You left out the part about protective eyewear and rather good rubber gloves. Dangerous stuff and all that.
Chip

Wrong Chip...............That is what you put on the MSDA sheet for the protection of the seller. In this case, the one I wrote about, is not the real instant danger stuff. But it is covered in the MSDS sheets.


The AR strippers that are sold in powder form are Hydrogen Fluoride, which becomes 100% Hydrofluoric acid as soon as you add water. That is a very dangerous way of doing it.

Here are the details ---------------> http://optochemicals.com/arstripper_info.htm

Much worse in general in the optical is the regular run of the mill neutralizer which is made from ethylene glycols that are harmless when cold but become very toxic when hot in a tinting unit.........and material safety data sheets of none of the suppliers does mention this.

Here are some details: -----------> http://optochemicals.com/Mainpress_release.htm

[Jubilee]

Some of us don't have the advantages of an in house lab, or finishing area. It makes it very difficult to be able to get the precoated finished lenses, and the labs round here don't charge you any less for finished lenses.

This is why many end up with SET for their basic AR.. it is simply what the lab offers for a "value" coating.

[obxeyeguy]

Some of us don't have the advantages of an in house lab, or finishing area. It makes it very difficult to be able to get the precoated finished lenses, and the labs round here don't charge you any less for finished lenses.

This is why many end up with SET for their basic AR.. it is simply what the lab offers for a "value" coating.

Why not buy the lenses from XXX lab, and then send them out for edging? I finish inhouse, all but drilled rimless, and that is what I do. They may not like it, but tough beans, if you want the rest of the work, or match the price.

[Happylady]

I hate selling standard ARs just for the above reasons. On insurance jobs it's easy to sell the best but it is harder with the private pays. I do think premium ARs are the way to go if at all possible.

[GAgal]

Or just soak them in greased lightning for 4-6 hours, use the left-overs to clean your lab floor, and voila, new lenses. I have used this for a while, and the only thing it won't strip is the newer bonded AR's.

Not an endorsement of any product, and I do not guarantee the same results, but it works for me. No gloves, no harse acids, just results.

I'm gonna have to try that! If it doesn't work, I'll just hide and blame you. :shiner: Any lens material you wouldn't use it on?

[Chris Ryser]

Not an endorsement of any product, and I do not guarantee the same results, but it works for me. No gloves, no harse acids, just results.

SIO@ (silicon dioxide) = glass, will only dissolve with aid of hydro fluoric acid.


Version: 1.1
12x32 OZ GREASED LIGHTNING HH Revision Date: 03/06/2008
Print Date: 04/15/2008
Advice on safe handling Avoid contact with mucous membranes.
Avoid contact with skin, eyes and clothing.
Mix only with water.
Do not mix with other chemicals.
Wash hands thoroughly with soap and water after handling and before eating,
drinking or using tobacco.
Do not handle until all safety precautions have been read and understood.

If product is used in an area with poor ventilation and mist or vapor is expected, a
respirator that meets OSHA/ANSI standards may be required.
Hygiene measures
Handle in accordance with good industrial hygiene and safety practice.
Remove and wash contaminated clothing before re-use.
Wash thoroughly after handling.
Ensure that eyewash stations and safety showers are close to the workstation location.

12x32 OZ GREASED LIGHTNING HH
04/15/2008
Personal protective equipment
Eye protection
Safety glasses with side-shields
Hand protection
Wear rubber gloves.
Respiratory protection
No personal respiratory protective equipment normally required.
If product is used in an area with poor ventilation and mist or vapor is expected, a
respirator that meets OSHA/ANSI standards may be required.

[shelleygirl]

We only offer the premium AR to our patients. If they ask for the $45 AR their insurance covers instead, we tell them we'd rather them not have it at all. That really gets their attention and sees that we are not just trying to get more money out of them. Most of the patients will go ahead with the premium after hearing that. Almost all of my patients get AR, I really believe in it but only the premium coating. We have had nothing but problems with the cheaper AR coatings.

[obxeyeguy]

Chris, I am sure no chemist, but I can tell you that it works on most AR's I have tried (unknown lenses not purchased from me). I did try a avance, (known) and no go, lenses clouded up.

As for the safety data on the greased lighning, I'm sure you can find similar info on any household cleaning agent, and maybe even some products we injest.

Buy a bottle, and give it a try, at least your floor will be clean.