Originally Posted by chip anderson
Well said Chip. Mr Forlife does not understand that nothing is free. It gets paid from some where whether it's directly out of pocket or indirectly it all comes down to we pay one way or another. Your system in Canada isn't free your taxed for that so called free system just as Sweden, England and the other socialist countries that run that same system.
No, infant deaths are among those who are actually born. IE.. take their first breath.
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
A quote from the AFL-CIO union puts the people who have no insurance at 15% which according to there statistics means 85% have insurance. A far cry from your 30% figure. And if America is all that bad why are you all still here? Move to Canada or France or England. Also if you move to France or Italy you better learn there language they have laws that you must speak the language.
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That is correct.............however the taxpayer pays a the same percentage for health care than anybody else, at the moment his taxes get deducted from the paycheck.
When he gets sick, needs surgery or a psychiatrist the government pays the bill from the money everybody contributed to.
The time I was told that I had 5 to 8 month to live and went through chemo, on week per month for 6 month at $ 4000.00 a day..........that is 30 time $ 4000.00 = $ 120,000 it did not cost 1 cent out of my pocket. I actually survived and have been declared fully cured.
The doctors can not be sued in the way they do it in the USA and have to pay for legal insurance through their nose. That is the largest point in the US that gets medical cost sky high.
I actually appreciate the Canadian health care.
I still agree with Chip but I m glad it worked out for you and you didn't have to pay that bill.
As to more lawsuits. Too damn many lawyers. More money to sue for.
Too many people would rather have a windfall than earn through honest work.
Has nothing to do with the quality of surgery. Also I suspect that with National Healthcare malpractice suites are much more difficult to pursue.
Chip
Last edited by chip anderson; 01-27-2009 at 03:59 PM. Reason: y
No, it is not idiotic. What would be myopic is that people think if they pay the government $6000 to an insurance company is better than paying $3000 to the government for the same service, and do not see that that the $6000 to the insurance company is pretty much just another tax.
That is silly. Yes, stopping Hitler would apply to that. The War on Iraq will probably cause more problems for the US in the long term than it would prevent.
Look at every major battle in the past 100 years. They were created by taking sides and other dumb wars. These conflicts caused more conflicts.
No.
Oh I understand it. Like I said, you spend $6000 to an insurance company or $3000 to the government. It is a tax either way. Only difference is the insurance company and politicians fool you into believing that taxes are different than fees.Well said Chip. Mr Forlife does not understand that nothing is free. It gets paid from some where whether it's directly out of pocket or indirectly it all comes down to we pay one way or another. Your system in Canada isn't free your taxed for that so called free system just as Sweden, England and the other socialist countries that run that same system.
There is a myth out there that I want to correct. Canada has lawyers too.
Never has a government especially the US government done anything, especially medical coverage as ecconomicly as it could be done by private enterprise. As Ronald Regan showed when he was running for president, one could obtain the same coverage medicare provided for a quarter of the cost.
Chip
Look at basic supply and demand competition. If I have one hospital in one town, where is the competition? Therefore, prices will be high to users.
It's the juries that decide on these crazy awards... the lawyers just help make it happen, for a percentage. Every US juror must think he/she will be the next one asking for and making millions from the courts for almost anything, so they tend to keep the awards so very high.
For-Life:
You statement about hospitals numbers being relative to price has no merrit. In fact until lately there was appearently no competition for patients amoung hospitals..
In our state sadly we have a board of doctors that must give a "certifercate of need" for a hospital to built or operate. This is very highly political and has on occasion closed facilities that were needed and well placed but not in political sync (in this case we are not talking liberal conservative or republican democrat, just money and medical politics.
Why a hospital has to be "needed" in an area is beyond my comprehension, if they go broke, they should go broke like any other enterprise, You try you succeed, or you fail.
Somewhere back down the line hospitals were places to care for the sick, for doctors to practice and provide services that were not suitable for the office. Somewhere we lost this, probably somewhere in a slot between insurance, politics and medicaid.
Now hospitals are businesses, outpatient clinics are businesses, but somehow subsized and dependent on the municipality or other governemnt entity.
I miss the smell of either when when you went into the front door of the hospital which you probably never even sniffed.
Chip
Absolutely NOT! You are not given a choice in regards to taxation. It is mandated.
Insurance on the other hand, is a choice, and you can get higher or lower quality coverages. Yes, I'd much rather spend $12,000 for insurance (and work 10 hours a week more for it if working harder for something is still legal), and $2,000 more in taxes.
Universal health care will be great to rescue all the people that don't want to make the decision between buying a new iphone, plazma tv, and another diamond stud for their nose and buying health insurance for their family.
I think it's completely ironic (and moronic) that as more developing countries embrace capitalism, the UNITED STATES, which was made strong by it, is racing (or being rappidly dragged) toward socialism.
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Since there seems to be some impressions that the uninsured are lazy, loungeabouts.. I pulled some facts from Kaisers Family Foundation, a non-profit.. bipartisan organization that does research into health policies and issues..
How many of the employers offer insurance benefits or an allowance to go towards benefits for their associates? Myself, I could not be in the position I am now, if I weren't married because my employer does not offer health insurance. However the economy is in shambles and do we think it would be wise for those people unable to get insurance through one place, to move positions to allow them that opportunity? What about those who have their benefits cut, so they have large deductibles and huge co-insurance amounts.. which still eats up a large portion of income?In 2007, 45 million nonelderly people in the United States lacked health coverage
More than eight in ten uninsured people (81%) come from working families
About two-thirds of the nonelderly uninsured are from low-income families (income below 200% of poverty, about $42,400 for a family of 4 in 2007)
More than one in three people (35%) living in poverty are uninsured, compared with one in twenty people (5%) with family incomes at or above four times the poverty level
Adults age 19-54 make up the majority (71%) of the nonelderly uninsured, but nearly 9 million children lacked health coverage in 2007
Since 2000 the number of nonelderly uninsured has grown by 8 million—with the only decline in the number of uninsured occurring in 2007, largely driven by an increase in public coverage
Uninsured adults are five times as likely as the privately insured to lack a usual source of care (54% vs. 10%) and four times as likely to postpone care due to cost (26% vs. 6%)
Fully half of the uninsured report paying for health care and health insurance is a serious problem
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/h08_7813.cfm
Most Americans get health insurance through their jobs; however, employers are not required to offer coverage and since 2000 the percentage of firms that offer coverage has declined. This decline has been driven, in part, by increasing health care premiums. The average cost for a family premium in 2008 was $12,680, nearly double what it cost in 2000. Poor and near poor workers are less likely to be offered insurance by their employers, but even when offered coverage, they are at greater risk of losing that coverage.<A id=front2 name=front2>2
another organization with similar data..
http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
Many of these nations have a blended type of economy. While Capitalism is the main driving force in their economy, they believe that social services are everyone's right.. and something they are willing to pay for.
It isn't a place where everyone makes the same wage, or where no one is rewarded for their merit. It is simply making it so that everyone can be healthy, and increasing the productivity of their nations. Australia has an excellent program that provides basic coverage for all citizens, and then gives tax credits to those who get coverage through private means instead (such as employer). So those not utlizing the system get some tax relief.. and people can buy secondary coverage to cover private rooms, self-referral, and other type services that wouldn't be covered in their basic plan.
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
Additional Insurance.................
In Canada, dentist's, eyeglasses, medications, are not covered by the state. Therefore some employers pay 1/2 of the cost throungh an additional insurance that is either paid in full if they are generous or partial.
Including this extra insurance an employee is fully covered. It becomes part of the revenue.
If we would all learn to substitute Taxpayers for the words: State, Government, Federal, etc. If we would require this of politicians by law. Our governments both here and in Canada would have whole differnt outlook. Deficits would go away entirely.
There is no such thing as "The State" paying for anything. There is only taxpayer and future taxpayer money!
Chip
So Sioux Lookout that is 120 miles from any other community and has 6000 people should not have a hospital is if it not profitable?
That is the problem, hospitals should not be a business. Life or death should not be determined by dollar.
This is the first year in 10 that the Canadian government will post a deficit. The Ontario government has made huge movements toward improving health care and education without going into into deficit. We have balanced budgets folks.
And our taxes are not much worse than yours. Actually, I hear they are now pretty equal.
So smart government can do these things without major taxation or deficits.
"Smart Government"
Funniest one liner I ever heard.
Well you did vote for Dubbya twice, so I guess it would be funny to you :p
:cheers:
I love ya Chip, but i must disagree with you on several of the points you have made. But to give you the benefit of the doubt, please provide one piece of evidence that shows that there are Canadians that want to move to emigrate united states that are currently "trapped" in Canada.
"Think you will find there are more Cannadians wanting to come to the US than US citizens wanting to get into Cannada" (please show some respect and spell our country's name correctly. It's Spelt Canada and we are Canadians) With the ease that Mexicans with nothing to their name can slip into the United States, I'm pretty sure that any Canadian who wants in the United States is already there. Up until 2002 there were border crossings in Quebec/Vermont that weren't even manned.
I would also encourage you to provide us with some statistical data or articles supporting that the United States has the best overall medical system in all of the developed countries. I googled "usa best health care system in the world" however the first 25-30 results, did not exactly paint your health care system as the best.
An article that I feel would best sum up my opion can be found at the following link
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1503
I don't feel that the united states health care system is as horrible as some make it sound however i definatly do feel that it favors the "have's" much more then the "have not's".
Futhermore, infant mortality rates provided by the UN, WHO and federal governments DO NOT include abortions Here is an intresting article on infant mortality in the US
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-..._b_135027.html
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