Originally Posted by HarryChiling
Country is easier. Profession will probable take two lifetimes and I don't have that kind of time.
Country is easier. Profession will probable take two lifetimes and I don't have that kind of time.
Alright so let me get this straight:Country is easier. Profession will probable take two lifetimes and I don't have that kind of time.
At least we're on the agenda right. I don't know anyone that wants to be on welfare, I know it's needed by some and abused by many, maybe this administration can evaluate this program and make changes or cuts where necessary and make improvements where necessary.
- Welfare Reform
- Social Security
- then Opticianry
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Why is it that everyone keeps thinking and saying that education breeds integrity, honor, and responsibility? If one is of low character, one just commits larger and more sophisticated crimes.
Look at what our politicians get into (and sometimes out of if they are rich and/or powerfull enough). Look at what our "most successfull" lawyers (Dickie Scrugs for example) get into. Look at the doctors committing medicare and medicaid fraud.
Education is not a way to instill good values. I'm sorry about this but it isn't. I suppose the theory is that if one has the capablilty of earning a good living he has no need to steal. Sorry it just isn't so.
Chip
I don't think people are saying that it brings forth integrity and honour. Maybe responsibility, because if people are taught fiscal responsibility, then they will be more inclined to practice them. If students are taught sex education, then they will be more likely to avoid "mythical" techniques as forms of birth control.
I think the big thing being argued here is the more educated you are, the more successful you can be. Not in all cases, but it is positively correlated. If people are given poor education, then they will have troubles learning things and then have troubles in life. Keep in mind, good work training IS education. Many of you older opticians received great education, just not in the academic field.
Plus, good paying jobs nowadays tend to demand higher education.
Edcation is a great way to learn things, including values.Education is not a way to instill good values. I'm sorry about this but it isn't. I suppose the theory is that if one has the capablilty of earning a good living he has no need to steal. Sorry it just isn't so.
If you are surrounded by drugs, poverty, etc., odds are you'll grow up thinking this is all there is. That there isn't a world greater and better than the world you're currently in. So why try? Why better yourself? Why support others as they try to better themselves?
Add education to the mix and you've opened up doors to worlds that you may have never thought possible. You learn. You're encouraged by others that have learned before you. They see more in you than you've ever dreamed to see in yourself. Afer a while, you realize that you are smart, you are worth it and you can make a difference in your own life and maybe those around you.
Just imagine what more education could do for you, Chip.
You misunderstand. I am not opposed to education. I just do not believe it is a cure for crime, or general underhandedness. I also do not believe that degrees are needed for some activities and trades. I think that those on optiboards who advocate a four year degree and licensing for dispensing see it as a means of unionization.
I don't think that most crime is typical of that in JeanValjean's story. I think it is due to sheer laziness and greed. Or in some cases sheer ambition and greed.
I do know that in today's world we even require CEC's for window washers. But for the most after all is said and done, it's a mop a bucket and a squeegee.
Sure I wish I knew as much chemistry as Chris and as much math as Darryl and Chilie Harry. And yes I know that both would be of a great help in those things I endevor to acomplish and develop. But to "sell" , present, adjust, or measure for a pair of glasses, surely you jest.
One need not have a nurse's degree to clean a bed pan or mop the floor and for this reason these duties were removed from them and placed in the hands of those less over qualified.
If we all had Phd.'s in liberal arts we wouldn't be a bit better at dispensing.
Chip
If you put the good people in good neighborhoods; where do you put the "bad" people. Leave them all together in a project? Oops, that's what we have now. It's just more of the same. It's really not a different option. The "good" people will take the resources given to them and invest, expand and improve themselves and finally leave. That's what you have in the inner-city.
Trying to eliminate poverty - It's chasing your tail. It's like going after a ghost. You can't get rid of it. Some people just don't care about it as much as you do. Those are the impoverished.
We have raised the standard of living in this country to the point that all but the worst off can get immunizations (and yet the US is not even in the top 10 for percent immunized). I don't see people on state aid that are underweight. That's odd to me. Does anyone actually "need" anything in this country that getting off their butts and working for it or even just asking for it won't provide??
I'm not talking about a decent car or wall to wall carpeting or even TV (not cable TV, but rabbit ears). I'm talking food, clothing, shelter, air and water and heat.
You know my grandmother said that the depression wasn't anything to her. They didn't have any money before the depression and it didn't get any worse during the depression. She talks about having to buy coal for a penny. They didn't have a coal stove in her house; for heavens sake they couldn't afford that. But the coal was required to take to school to heat the school. This was a state supported school that had no budget for heat. Walking to school barefoot was not just an exaggerated cliche for her. As my grandmother still says ". . .and I didn't even die".
Even the homeless in this country live excessively compared to some in Calcutta, Africa and other places.
There are worse things than being poor.
Changes needed urgently.........................
It will turn out that way anyhow whatever they are going to do.
The optical business has one big advantage...........that in the worst of times people will need help to see properly........................ to continue their search for a better life.
So it boils down to re-adjust the business to attract the ones in need of optical service to your business and not to one of the other guy or corporation ..............or even the new mushrooming on-line industry.
I wonder why the bulk of conversation on this OptoBoard has not turned turned to find solutions to attract the consumers that are in need of visual aids, but just do not have the funds to afford the products that are under constant discussing here.
Newest and latest technology, translated into higher prices, is not what the cash stricken consumer is looking for. This category consumer is looking for a temporary solution that is inexpensive and is meant as a temporary solution until his fortune will turn to better again. But that could be a long time.
Maybe this is the time when OptiBoard would have again a forum accessible to the consumer with strict rules, just talking about the commercial side and aspects so we can find out which way we should turn to help and sell to these millions of consumers off line and survive doing it.
I believe these and the coming times will need major changes of optical mentality.......not technology..........which is always a way to charge more, but to find out where we can save by doing what and still make some profit. And that can range from different purchasing, to different selling, change of service system and do some operations in house.
Members on OptiBoard should definitely talk more about adjusting to the situation and how to keep the business going than glorifying the latest and most fanciest additions that will cost everybody a lot more.more.
Amen!
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
they can get off their butt and go work at McDonalds but they will not be any better off. Unless there is a mechanism to make post-secondary education affordable, they will never get more than minimum wage.
This is not the economy that many of you guys grew up in. You need post-secondary training/education today. I know, it does not make sense, but this is what businesses want.
Last edited by For-Life; 01-22-2009 at 08:30 AM.
Actually I disagree. Businesses don't want post-secondary training. They want drug-free, clean, non-BO producing, hard working, non cell-phone talking, show-up on time, speaking without profanity, employees that will work 40 hrs/week for $7/hr. That is what employers want. They can't find enough because they aren't out there. They all went to college.
This is kinda my point. We can't all go to college. Then who will clean toilets? If we all get college degrees, then there won't be enough jobs for all of us and there will be a BA's cleaning toilets at McDonalds. The pay is the same whether you have a degree or not. I guess we could import the less fortunate from other countries to do our menial work. How much should we pay them? We can't let them live in poverty! So we should pay them $35K/yr, right? We can't afford to pay them that much because with the glut of engineers, accountants, marketing execs, etc, the average wage for a degreed "professional" changing oil at the Jiffy Lube is $11/hr (the new minimum wage).
If we gave everyone $100/yr then $90K/yr would be the new poverty level. The new poverty level will support 30 familes in Mexico. And we are supposed to feel bad for someone that makes "only" $80K/yr? That's where we are now, just the numbers are different.
Poverty is almost non-existent in this country. When I start seeing kids going barefoot in the summertime or people trading in cell phones for food, then I might think we have poverty. Our safety-net has worked. The war on poverty has been won. Just because someone can't afford the nicer things in life doesn't mean that they are impoverished.
Even in this economy there is more work than workers. It's just not the type of work that people want. As I was shovelling the snow from the front of our shop a few weeks ago, I was talking to a 60+ yo guy doing the same next door. He told me that 25 years ago he never shovelled snow. A snow day at school meant that a small army of kids with snow shovels would have the entire downtown sidewalks cleared by 9:00. Each of these kids could make $40 by noon. I bet now they could make $100+. In the last 4 years, I have never had anyone offer to shovel my walk except for a lawn-care business. How about this plan for making education affordable? GET OUT AND WORK FOR YOUR COLLEGE TUITION. I did. . . .and I didn't even die.
I'm actually more socially concerned than I sound. I know many more people need help now than a year ago. Many of the people that are struggling aren't lazy. They are doing the best they know how with the tools they have. I would venture to say the extreme mental illness or drug addiction are behind almost all chronic homelessness. And many, many people (especially parents) need help coping with daily struggles. But giving more money is a false solution.
Last edited by MarcE; 01-23-2009 at 12:37 AM.
Chris,
Who in the world wants to attract cash sticken consumers???:hammer::hammer::hammer:
Don't carry the latest, and that's what you'll attract!
(And please don't try to say that all consumers are cash stricken. If they are truly "cash stricken", then they are not consumers.)
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Of course not all are...........................
Actually some of them get rich in tough times, but there are still a few million jobless and another 1.5 million foeclosures to come. And many of them will need glasses, probably they have no more insurance because it might have gone with the job.
Then maybe we should not try to find a solution so they won't go to the on-line trade.
I never said college, I said post secondary education. That includes trade schools and apprenticeships.
Tuition is rising at an unbelievable level. On real, not nominal dollar level, it has probably increased 25% from when you went. It is starting to get unaffordable. So if you make those $7, you will never have the opportunity to do something further in your life. Or most of all, your kids will not either. That is not good for the nation. That is not good for the land of opportunity.
And no, I want people who went through a grueling education, because I want people who are trainable, smart, hardworkers, and critical thinkers.
Folks won't "get off their butt and go work at McDonalds", but they're going to go "through a grueling education"?
Ok...
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Would you rather work at McDonalds and know you or going nowhere OR go back and get an education knowing you can develop a real career for yourself?
At 18, if you asked me, I would have rather gave the 60-70 hours a week for school than the 40 hours a week for McDonalds.
From aboutmytalk.com:
Job Story: True Life: I work at McDonald's...manager To all of you making noise about McDonalds, you should find something better to do. I am currently employed with McDonald's as a General Manager and I am making a great living while going to Graduate school(yes, a MikeyD's employee with a brain)! McDonalds helped me work and pay my way through college. It continues to help me as I complete my courses to obtain my masters degree. I face many obstacles as a General Manager, but all of them are worth it! Respond with all the comments that your heart desires, but McDonalds teaches you many valuable life experiences. Only the ignorant are blinded by the "bad press".
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Move to Mississippi we could use some McDonald's Managers or even an employee with a brain. At least one that hasn't been fried on crack.
The reason fast food places exist, South of Memphis anyway, is so crack heads can have a job.
Now talk to every McDonald's employee you know. I have known many, because I knew them in high school and Uni. Why is it that the recent McDonald's employee I know, who just started a job with a township, makes $30k (first year out of Uni), and $5k than her manager at McDonald's?
Great example. Sounds like your friend got some good work experience, and worked their way up to a better paying (gov.) job. Would your friend have gotten the job had they spent the last 5 years sitting on the couch?
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
There is a few difference..
My experience was that the corporate owned stores paid better.. and had better benefits than many franchised stores.
McDonald's as a whole does have a lot of scholarships and such available. They once catered to the high school and college kids to staff many of their locations.
I learned a heck of a lot there. Like how to deal with the public. Multi-tasking.. dealing with irritated people.. cash handling.. inventory, cleaning, along with the whole cooking and serving thing..
It certainly helped paid my way in school..
Location is another. Some fast food managers here earn 40-50k a year.. but in other areas in the state, you are lucky to break 30.. then you have the ones that want college educated managers to begin with.. and still only pay them 30K..
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
Doesn't sound like a job to be looked down upon.(Not that any should)
In fact, it sounds an awful lot like optical.
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Oh she did and I will not take that away from McDonald's. But the point is, to look at a part-time job going through school versus a career there - it is a big difference.
Seems that the futha Nawth one goes the higher class McDonald's help is.
Here we have certian groups that are financed by Mickey but not required to make the standards that those above the glacier line do.
Seriously those in Jackson's combined IQ wouldn't get to triple digits.
When Mickey D first came to the are they had some of the brightest clean cut teenagers behind the counter with a smile and most eager to take an order or handle a problem. If your order took more than a couple minites, it was "promoed" for free or sublimented with something for free. Within five years the entire culture changed and they aren't even clean anymore.
I still see this when I get Nauth of Memphis but South of there it's a whole other business. Just a bunch of slothfull types jive talking amongst themselves while the customers wait. The personell changes every third day and on Saturday, Sunday and Monday only half of them show up. Mickey ain't smart enough to pay on Monday. If you write in a complaint to main office you get a certifercate telling you how these are "independent franchises" as a slip good for a free apple pie.
Shoot we complain about Wally's optical but it's so far above Mickey's management and sophistication you wouldn't believe.
Chip
Dick,
Your letter to the employees is a quintessentially American point of view of an employer's responsibilities to his employees. I've lived in and spent a lot of time in Europe, and have an understanding of their economic system. I think that it presents an alternative. For example, in the U.S we have a distinct "us" vs. "them" point of view. You've slaved away to build your business and are resentful of those shiftless wastrels who simply want to collect benefits. However, in Europe those wastrels are seen in the same light as the sick, who are covered by their national healthcare system ie: they cannot help being the way the are, just like sick people can't help being sick. There are people who will always possess superior intelligence, or work ethics, or intestinal fortitude to study and make something of themselves. And then there are all the others. Perhaps you were born with genes that predisposed you to success; or perhaps these merits were taught to you by your parents. Perhaps others do not have either the genes or the parents to help them along their path. The exact reasoning is unimportant to the Europeans- the bottom line is that you were able to do it and others were not. Therefore, in a civilized world the fortunate help the less "favored".
The other issue is whether the social umbrella that protects all citizens and workers of Europe is necessary or superfluous. The umbrella provides free healthcare, schooling, welfare, retirement, nursing home care etc. The idea is that in a civilized world we can't allow sick people to suffer, allow children of poor parents to receive less of an education, or to not take care of our elderly. Likewise, in a civilized world we want to remove the anxiety of worrying about all these things so that people can concentrate more on interpersonal issues. Therefore, "privileged" employers and wealthy people are called upon to contribute large amounts of taxes to provide this type of umbrella to the masses. In addition to this, Europe also has very skewed labor laws that mandates healthcare, vacations, reasonable working hours and incredible job protection for employees. Naturally, all these taxes and laws stifle business to some extent The reward is simply not as high for French businessmen as it can be for Americans. An argument can also be made that these taxes and laws ultimately increase unemployment since people are less prone to start new businesses. All this is true and no one doubts that the American capitalistic system provides more weath and rewards in the long run. However, it does this at an enormous expense for the society at large. And the funny thing is that even though Europe may be a bit behind us in business ethics and innovation, their citizens wouldn't change the system for anything in the world (even the wealthy ones). The social umbrella has created a more humane, civilized, gentler place to live in with much less emphasis on money, competition and material comforts. If this sounds downright "anti-American", you're right. The Europeans regard us a a wild-West, frontier type of mentality in which those that hit the mother-lode are wildly rewarded at the expense of others. Our system of capitalism is like the baby in the bathtub who is alternatively being scalded by hot water or frozen by cold water ie: we have regularly occurring boom and bust times with very little normalcy in between.
Dick, you claim that you spent many years living frugally and working hard to accumulate the wealth that you have. Perhaps this is the only thing you could do. It was in your nature. I spent many years in school getting my various degrees and ultimately became an ophthalmologist. Frankly, it was the only thing I could do. It was easier for me than getting a real job at a construction site. I am often amazed that society rewards me in such an exaggerated way for a path of life that I chose that was easier for me than any other path. I;m sure that there are many normal hard-working people who toil from morning till night and make a fraction of what I make. I can't really convince myself that I absolutely deserve everything that I have, and that they deserve so much less. By paying higher taxes I will at least assure that they receive free healthcare, schooling and retirement whereas I will own one less mercedes. I am not entirely averse to the idea.
I know that it's very hard for Americans to think this way since culturally our mantra, or dogma, is to believe that hard work should result in big rewards. That healthcare and retirement benefits are not "rights" but privileges that need to be earned. That lazy or incompetent people are not "sick" but have chosen their own path and should not be rewarded for it. However, spend some time in Europe and you'll see that there is merit in their system as well. I am not advocating one way or the other but feel that it's always good to see the other side of the coin.
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