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Thread: A note to all employees

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    that is old fear tactics used by the right wing. Funny thing, with taxes higher, unemployment was lower during the Clinton years than the Bush ones.

    Yeah, I guess you're right.

    I think I'll go down to the unemployment line on Tuesday and tell all those folks that they're really not unemployed, they're just the victim of scare tactics.:o

    I've refrained from mentioning politics because I don't give a horse's **** who's in Washington. Nobody's going to fix this. Let me say that again.

    NOBODY'S GOING TO FIX THIS!

    There is no button to push, no magic plan, no formula to work. Was it an "anti-stimulus" plan that got us into this? No, it was stupid people (unless you have a better term for them) that bought houses they couldn't afford, using money that shouldn't have been loaned, and now they want the government (the banks and the people) to bail them out. Yeah, that'll help! Like it's already been posted, "What happened to the banks bailout money?" Ok, so let's try it on the people now.

    I can't count the number of people that have said that 2009 is going to be a great year, because it can't be worse than 2008. I'll bet that's the same thing folks said after the first year of the Great Depression. Don't think it can get worse? Just raise the taxes on the remaining businesses and see just how bad it WILL get.

    Here's some more "fear mongering". Note that this is not from an e-mail, but from RIS, a retail trade site that many of us follow:

    http://www.risnews.com/ME2/dirmod.as...=Publishing&mo
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    The question is, without these social programs that have helped improve the US, would these businesses have done as well.
    For instance?

    Sure, there's a Medicaid Mill OD, down the street that wouldn't be doing as good, but I don't know about most businesses in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    Yeah, I guess you're right.

    I think I'll go down to the unemployment line on Tuesday and tell all those folks that they're really not unemployed, they're just the victim of scare tactics.:o

    I've refrained from mentioning politics because I don't give a horse's **** who's in Washington. Nobody's going to fix this. Let me say that again.

    NOBODY'S GOING TO FIX THIS!

    There is no button to push, no magic plan, no formula to work. Was it an "anti-stimulus" plan that got us into this? No, it was stupid people (unless you have a better term for them) that bought houses they couldn't afford, using money that shouldn't have been loaned, and now they want the government (the banks and the people) to bail them out. Yeah, that'll help! Like it's already been posted, "What happened to the banks bailout money?" Ok, so let's try it on the people now.

    I can't count the number of people that have said that 2009 is going to be a great year, because it can't be worse than 2008. I'll bet that's the same thing folks said after the first year of the Great Depression. Don't think it can get worse? Just raise the taxes on the remaining businesses and see just how bad it WILL get.

    Here's some more "fear mongering". Note that this is not from an e-mail, but from RIS, a retail trade site that many of us follow:

    http://www.risnews.com/ME2/dirmod.as...=Publishing&mo

    are you trying to tell me that this whole recession is due to high tax rates? Give me a break.

    And don't forget the weak regulations that allowed banks to loan out money that they did not have.

    But what really gets me is people keep saying that taxpayers make the best decisions and therefore the government should put the money in taxpayers hands to make their decisions with it. Then when the economy takes a hit, everyone blames taxpayers, calls them "idiots" and do not want to help them now.

    This is why tax dollars are used to protect the system so that mistakes are not as damaging.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    For instance?

    Sure, there's a Medicaid Mill OD, down the street that wouldn't be doing as good, but I don't know about most businesses in general.
    John, please look at the big picture. It is not just about medicaid or one purchase.

    Think of it this way. You have one integrated society with everyone doing relatively the same. Over time, the smart ones will do better than the lazy or weaker ones. So now you have a separation of wealth, which is fine. Then the next generation comes along. You have the kids with wealthier parents who have the opportunity to get a proper education and live because they have health care dollars. With the poorer group, a small percentage works really hard and can make it to the top, but it is still a small percentage.

    The next generation then comes around. Since talent and desire is not bought with money, you have some lazy rich people that drop off from the wealthier group. From the poorer group, the children have no ability to move forward, because all of the part time jobs in the World cannot provide them with enough money for their education.

    So as you move forward with every generation, the poor group grows larger and the wealthier group shrinks due to attrition. The economy becomes a shell of itself and the society shatters.


    See, this is the problem with the economic libertarian view. It does not take into consideration anything but today. You have to ask yourself "what are the long term effect of these decisions." I challenge you to think hard and deeply as a devil's advocate of the other side. What will happen if you remove these programs and how much economic dollars will be removed from the economy.


    Yes, your business may not have any poorer or welfare clients. But that grocery store owner who bought 6 pairs from you last year does.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    are you trying to tell me that this whole recession is due to high tax rates? Give me a break.

    And don't forget the weak regulations that allowed banks to loan out money that they did not have.

    But what really gets me is people keep saying that taxpayers make the best decisions and therefore the government should put the money in taxpayers hands to make their decisions with it. Then when the economy takes a hit, everyone blames taxpayers, calls them "idiots" and do not want to help them now.

    This is why tax dollars are used to protect the system so that mistakes are not as damaging.
    No, I didn't say that at all. Read right below the large print. I mentioned taxes to say that raising them will only add to the problem.

    It's like a doctor telling an overweight person that because they are so heavy their heart is being overworked. So, we're going to take out your heart!:o

    And...

    The welfare folks mentioned in the original letter are not taxpayers. (Or are they taxing welfare benefits now?) They are not contributing to the country in terms of taxes. I'm not going to get into a discussion (I guess I already am) as to what contribution they are making to society, but that's for another forum that I no longer frequent.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    Rbaker,

    Would it be safe to assume that country you're going to won't be Canada?:bbg:
    You can say that again. My family left Canada in 1908, just as soon as grandfather learned how to read road signs. He brought his new bride the the USA - the land of freedom and opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    No, I didn't say that at all. Read right below the large print. I mentioned taxes to say that raising them will only add to the problem.

    It's like a doctor telling an overweight person that because they are so heavy their heart is being overworked. So, we're going to take out your heart!:o

    And...

    The welfare folks mentioned in the original letter are not taxpayers. (Or are they taxing welfare benefits now?) They are not contributing to the country in terms of taxes. I'm not going to get into a discussion (I guess I already am) as to what contribution they are making to society, but that's for another forum that I no longer frequent.
    Obama has said that he is holding off the tax increase until the recession is over (as people keep talking about him raising taxes, I am sure that is what is being alluded too).

    But keep something in mind, the US right now has too much debt. Now, you can solve part of it through smart cut backs on spending, but at the end of the day, you guys will have to pay more taxes. There has to be a revenue generator to balance the economy. It sucks, but it is something that is necessary.

    Now you can argue that cutting welfare will help, but keep in mind that if welfare helps these individuals get jobs, then they will be paying taxes and THUS, it will help bring in that revenue that is needed.


    As for Obama's and the Dem tax plan. It is not my ideal plan, but it is better than what has been presented by the other side.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    You can say that again. My family left Canada in 1908, just as soon as grandfather learned how to read road signs. He brought his new bride the the USA - the land of freedom and opportunity.
    FYI - Canada is also the land of freedom and opportunity ;)

    I have done very well for myself and will continue to do so. I love my country just like you love yours. :)

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    John, please look at the big picture. It is not just about medicaid or one purchase.
    You are absolutely correct. It's not. And I don't think I've read anywhere here, where anyone is advocating stopping these programs. They are out of control programs that are not going to go away, and we all know it. My biggest beef w/all that is that many of them are potential taxpayers that are not only not contributing, but are bleeding the system.

    The problem is, that raising the taxes will put even more of a burden on businesses (not just small, but all), and will eventually result in fewer taxpayers. How smart is that?
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    this is why tax dollars are used to protect the system so that mistakes are not as damaging.
    roflmao!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    You are absolutely correct. It's not. And I don't think I've read anywhere here, where anyone is advocating stopping these programs. They are out of control programs that are not going to go away, and we all know it. My biggest beef w/all that is that many of them are potential taxpayers that are not only not contributing, but are bleeding the system.

    The problem is, that raising the taxes will put even more of a burden on businesses (not just small, but all), and will eventually result in fewer taxpayers. How smart is that?
    A few years ago I studied labour economics. We spent two weeks on welfare reform. What we found is that pretty much every reform attempted has failed. So while the current system is not perfect, it is probably the best one available at the moment.

  12. #37
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    [quote]this is why tax dollars are used to protect the system so that mistakes are not as damaging.[quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by obxeyeguy View Post
    roflmao!


    Yeah, I didn't even understand a little of that?

    Tax dollars protect the system?

    I'm not even going to try to understand that one...:o:hammer::shiner:
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxeyeguy View Post
    roflmao!
    You don't like that. Well then make the decision. Are individuals best capable at deciding what they should do to provide their own health care, education, and social programs (even though many that fall into this are under 18 and never had time to save up for it) or are individuals making too many bad decisions?

    Take health care. I have heard too many times that these individuals who do not buy insurance are not protecting themselves. But then I also hear from the same political line that these individuals are best prepared to make their own health care decisions.

    So which one is it?

  14. #39
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    [quote=Johns;280276][quote]this is why tax dollars are used to protect the system so that mistakes are not as damaging.





    Yeah, I didn't even understand a little of that?

    Tax dollars protect the system?

    I'm not even going to try to understand that one...:o:hammer::shiner:
    They protect the system through smart regulation (there is over-regulation and bad regulation too, but there should be an attempt to minimize it). They protect the system through mechanisms like Employment Insurance, Welfare, Disability, Pension and so forth. So when someone falls on tough times, they can take the time to get on their feet and then move forward.

  15. #40
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    And now, back to the letter...

    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    To All My Valued Employees,

    There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.

    However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

    First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a Back Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

    However, what you don't see is the BACK STORY:

    I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

    My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friend s went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

    Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

    So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices I've made.

    Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

    Yes, business ownership has its benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds.

    Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

    I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero.. Nada. Zilch.

    The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

    The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

    Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

    When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To re start it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

    So where am I going with all this?

    It's quite simple.

    If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I'll fire you. I'll fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.

    Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

    So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....

    Signed,
    THE BOSS

    It is what it is, and I think it echoes the thoughts of most business owners.
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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    So lower taxes on business owners - then raise minimum wages.

    Easy. More money in the pockets of the people that need to spend it.
    Last edited by Uilleann; 01-19-2009 at 03:26 PM. Reason: spelling oops

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    So lower taxers on business owners - then raise minimum wages.

    Easy. More money in the pockets of the people that need to spend it.
    I haven't been around for the past few years but, don't most employees in the optical business earn at a level somewhat above minimum wage?

    In the good old days, most small businesses would reinvest any tax savings in their business (hiring new employees and paying higher wages) but with the present socialist mindset that we see on this thread, why bother. Profits are a bad thing
    .

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    The problem is that many owners don't think in the same terms as the ones here on this board.

    Employees cost a lot of money. More than what they get paid. Even more true if you have benefits.

    So while some people would invest those tax savings into improving their business and hiring more people, many don't. Or they hire people, just at a wage of 8-9 dollars and hour that don't pay enough to be able to afford insurance or a place to live after paying for daycare.

    Its called the working poor.

    Then there are the major corporations that aren't being ran by the guys who created the business. They are there collecting fat checks for running businesses into the ground..

    Many people I know losing their homes here bought what they thought they could afford. They were told you can do it, the payment was less than 30% of their take home, which is a criteria many financial analysts use to determine affordability. Then they are laid off, company closes, placed on a rotation of "unpaid vacation" .. hours cuts.. and all of sudden their income drops by 25% or more, and then they start hurting and having trouble.

    Of course many of these people were talked into ARMs and second mortgages to pay off other debt, and various things to put them closer to that edge..

    I still think instead of that money going to the banks, it should have went back to the people. Who in turn could have used it to get caught up, and reintroduced it back into the system.

    $500 ain't going to do it.
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    How have the social programs helped? Other than create large portion of society dependent on them and voting to preserve them? A society that when it gets too old for medicaid and food assistance turns to crime?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    I haven't been around for the past few years but, don't most employees in the optical business earn at a level somewhat above minimum wage?

    In the good old days, most small businesses would reinvest any tax savings in their business (hiring new employees and paying higher wages) but with the present socialist mindset that we see on this thread, why bother. Profits are a bad thing
    .
    Which old days are that? I have heard the complete opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    How have the social programs helped? Other than create large portion of society dependent on them and voting to preserve them? A society that when it gets too old for medicaid and food assistance turns to crime?
    Actually it has moved a large deal of individuals OFF of dependency. Go back to my generations post as an example.

    By providing one poor person a lift, you give them a chance to clean up and get a good job. If they have kids, their kids will be better off and then their grandchildren will be better off.

    Is there abuse? Of course, there is abuse in every system. But it is nothing even close to what is pushed forth here. Like I said, a mile in someone's shoe.


    Here is the thing. Here, on welfare, I would make $8500 a year. That is a fact. Yes, it is tax free, but that barely makes a difference. Yes, it comes with some minimal health things, like glasses, but that is minimal and only applies if I need glasses. Plus, it is not money, so it is not like I even would be driven to get it. I do get subsidized housing, but again, it does little to pay the bills. Once you take care of my heat, telephone, and food, I got nothing left over at the end of the day. I got no investments, no fun, nothing.

    Now, why would I do that when I could go out there and make so much more? Do I pay quite a bit more on taxes than on welfare? Of course, but my disposable income is much higher too.

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    Blue Jumper Now, why would I do that...................

    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post

    Now, why would I do that when I could go out there and make so much more?
    See the hat and coat check lady at my favorite restaurant.

    She is not on the pay roll and takes only tips..............and makes anything between $ 80.00 to 150.00 per evening 5x a week.

    Besides that she has been and still is on welfare for over 30 years.

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    Blue Jumper then raise minimum wages..................

    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post

    So lower taxers on business owners - then raise minimum wages.

    Easy. More money in the pockets of the people that need to spend it.
    Having had close to 100 employees in my previous business......................each time the government raised the minimum wage, there was a near revolution.

    The 2or 3 apprentices on minimum wage got more, then the ones on the next pay scale also wanted more and on and on.

    The raising of the minimum always ended up raising everybody's pay and consequently cost the business a lot more.

  24. #49
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    Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

    So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....

    Signed,
    THE BOSS
    It's the ultimatum that gets me, steamrolled the constitution , the ast 8 years have seen some of the most proposterous strikes at our constitution and no on eblinked an eye. The reality of the situation is that this administration is running on one premise "HOPE" rather than the last 8 which was "FEAR", I'm all for that some of the poicies will flop for sure and some will succed for sure. As an american you owe it to your president to give it a chance otherwise we are destined to fail and all you get is a I told you so at teh expense of the country.

    Business taxes going up isn't a good idea for the moment, btu if dick bumps like the one in the letter really close down their businesses then someone else can step in their place and that's called opportunity. It's only gonn aget tougher and I am making my plans for the futuer as if my job were in jepordy, plan for the worst and you shoudl be OK, but I am also optimistic and see opportunities around every corner right now. I am glad this business owner is ready to giv up it's better fo him to give up then the rest of america, some of these large corporations have cheated payign taxes through every loop hole possible and it has stiffled small businesses to the point where no one can compete. I see large businesses going out of business more than the small ones RIGHT NOW. I am sure it will effect the small businesses as well, btu when the dust clears maybe we'll have more small businesses and we'll have more opportunity. Who knows what the future holds but I'm gonna ride the bull by the horns.
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  25. #50
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    Just a question

    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    So lower taxers on business owners - then raise minimum wages.

    Easy. More money in the pockets of the people that need to spend it.
    Not that it wouldn't have gone up some anyway, but is it not interesting that unemployment went even higher after the raise (again) in the min. wage?

    Just a thought...
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

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