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Thread: The Big 3 Automotive Crisis in North America

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    The Big 3 Automotive Crisis in North America

    I'm a little erked to say the least after watching the news tonight...the presidents of the UAW/CAW will not offer concessions to their employers to survive and keep their jobs.

    Not only is this greedy, big headed, arrogant and stupid...it is Russian roulette. Now, they aren't the full cause of the problem, as CEO's continue to be compensated like top bankers, but the ridiculously high wages and benefits of the average line worker is a major root and contributing factor.

    This just didn't happen overnight. It has taken years to fester and now is at risk of fully collapsing. This latest economic crunch has just made it come to light sooner but was inevitable.

    One way or the other, we will all feel a ripple or two if these automakers do not survive the current crisis. Not to mention, the thousands of Tier 1, 2 and 3 parts makers and dealers etc...

    I support an assistance program, but certainly not a free lunch from the government at our expense. The media keeps using the term 'bailout'; it most certainly is because of the domino effect from greedy executives and unions.

    Just my two cents...I'm just curious to hear other's opinions.

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    I feel very similarly. While those companies deserve to die, many "middle Americans" will become unemployed and wind up being taken care of by government.

    While I feel the unions should make some concessions, we can't turn the average worker into $8 per hour Wal Mart greeters either.

    Any bailout should be tied to greatly reduced executive compensation and some union givebacks. And the executives at these companies should have a collar around their neck where everytime they think about building a gas guzzler, they should get an electric shock.

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    I agree...I'm not recommending a rollback to minimum wage, but a 'fair' wage. In Canada, these workers are paid around $35.00/hr, not to mention the ridiculous benefits and union mentality these workers have. I think $18-20 per hour is fair and reasonable.

    If the unions continue to steer the employees and labour costs, it is doomed for sure. The days of the necessity for a union representing employees is antiquated.

    Labour laws and employment equity now seem to be in line for the most part, so the unions are now more or less a 'greedy wage and benefits negotiator' and are very self serving. So, lets get rid of them all together and save on the union dues also.

    The gravy train has come to an end and I can't imagine that anyone is shocked or surprised here. All of these unnecessary, inflated costs are rolled right into the vehicle sticker price only to be absorbed by us consumers.

    I don't wish for anyone to become unemployed, but changes have to be made, and fast. There's always a solution to every problem, but first things first...this is a reality and everyone will need to check their egos and negative attitudes at the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Any bailout should be tied to greatly reduced executive compensation and some union givebacks. And the executives at these companies should have a collar around their neck where everytime they think about building a gas guzzler, they should get an electric shock.
    Do you want that to go off when they fly to DC for these meetings in a corporate jet? Estimated cost of $20K each for ford and GM honchos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obxeyeguy View Post
    Do you want that to go off when they fly to DC for these meetings in a corporate jet? Estimated cost of $20K each for ford and GM honchos.
    Let's give it six months. The jets will be grounded and the ride on public transit will sure be a humbling experience for them.:hammer:

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemanflying View Post
    ...
    If the unions continue to steer the employees and labour costs, it is doomed for sure. The days of the necessity for a union representing employees is antiquated.

    Labour laws and employment equity now seem to be in line for the most part, so the unions are now more or less a 'greedy wage and benefits negotiator' and are very self serving. So, lets get rid of them all together and save on the union dues also.

    The gravy train has come to an end and I can't imagine that anyone is shocked or surprised here. All of these unnecessary, inflated costs are rolled right into the vehicle sticker price only to be absorbed by us consumers.

    I don't wish for anyone to become unemployed, but changes have to be made, and fast. There's always a solution to every problem, but first things first...this is a reality and everyone will need to check their egos and negative attitudes at the door.
    Maybe you're not aware that:

    The United Auto Workers union has agreed to a two-tiered wage system and a switch to far-less generous pensions for new hires in exchange for job security promises in its landmark contract with General Motors Corp., the union said Friday.
    For years, the executives, stockholders, and workers have had it pretty good. Now that the going has gotten tough, the workers have voluntarily rolled back their compensation and the stockholders have lost huge amounts of paper value. Meanwhile, the CEO got a raise.


    General Motors Corp said on Thursday Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's 2008 salary has been raised 33 percent to $2.2 million
    ...Just ask me...

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    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    I pretty much disagree. This is not a union failing. This is a governmental failing. If the Economic collapse had not been created by Bush policies, oil price increases, etc. then the US automakers would still be surviving. And as far as the healthcare and pension issues. This is just another example of why we should have universal, governmentally funded healthcare. If that cost was taken off the books for the auto industry it would be healthy right now.

    If a company can't afford to give its employees a living wage, then it isn't healthy enough to be functioning as a business.
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    Bad address email on file fvc2020's Avatar
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    quote=Grubendol;273122]I pretty much disagree. This is not a union failing. This is a governmental failing. If the Economic collapse had not been created by Bush policies, oil price increases, etc. then the US automakers would still be surviving. And as far as the healthcare and pension issues. This is just another example of why we should have universal, governmentally funded healthcare. If that cost was taken off the books for the auto industry it would be healthy right now.

    If a company can't afford to give its employees a living wage, then it isn't healthy enough to be functioning as a business.[/quote]


    Snottly remark coming....Oh please I feel like vomiting....Are you saying the President Bush made the auto industry make bad gas guzzling useless cars?...I don't agree with anything you said...While Honda and Toyota were making better cars no inovation came out of Detroit. That my dear and the union wages...caused their demise, not the government. As for healthcare universal health care, it works where? Taking it off the books of the automaker doesn't solve anything but more people on the government dole. If they wanted to they could give the money for healthcare to their employees as part of their salary and let the employees control their own health care. This would make everyone happy.
    As for a living wage, what exactly is it? And who decides it? People should be paid what they are worth. No one should get a salary they have not truly earned. Period end of story...

    bad decisions all the way around in the american auto industry. That is why their in trouble and frankly I don't want to pay for their bad mistakes

    Christina

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    The automotive industry has been struggling for years. While I am not a Bush fan, the trouble was there long before he stepped in office.

    The two tiered system was a small concession. It lowered the wages for those just entering into the idustry, but still kept the existing members wages high and provided them with a raise as well.

    I certainly understand the idea behind senority and such.. the crux of the issue is that the leaders have been advocating, negotiating and getting theirs while the general membership and newer members have been getting quite a bit less from the union.

    While taking a pay cut, or agreeing to hours concessions suck.. being able to make sure a business/industry stands and you have a job is something to evaluate. The plant (non-union) where my sister works at agreed last year to a small pay cut across the board, and to a month shut down around the holidays to decrease payroll and to control costs. Was it fun? no.. but the plant is still in business and actively in production. The other company plant where they didn't make any concessions lost 30% of their staff due to layoffs/cuts in an effort to keep it afloat, with a warning that it could end up on the chopping block if business drops.
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    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Everyone involved should sacrifice if they want US tax dollars. This includes the executives who should not be allowed to make any more than the President of the United States. In fact, I would reduce their compensation to no more then a member of Congress gets.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Machol View Post
    Everyone involved should sacrifice if they want US tax dollars. This includes the executives who should not be allowed to make any more than the President of the United States. In fact, I would reduce their compensation to no more then a member of Congress gets.
    Here Here!

    That’s the main point of what I was getting at. These companies can afford to give their workers and retirees a living wage with health benefits. ESPECIALLY if the government takes over the cost of healthcare, and then EVERYONE can pay less and get more.

    And also ESPECIALLY if the CEO’s and top execs make salaries in line with what used to be commonplace in this country (pre-Reagan) salaries maybe 10-20 times what the average worker makes, NOT 200-300 times what the average worker makes.
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    Bad address email on file fvc2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Machol View Post
    Everyone involved should sacrifice if they want US tax dollars. This includes the executives who should not be allowed to make any more than the President of the United States. In fact, I would reduce their compensation to no more then a member of Congress gets.
    I think this says it all:)

    christina

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    Quote Originally Posted by fvc2020 View Post
    quote=Grubendol;273122]I pretty much disagree. This is not a union failing. This is a governmental failing. If the Economic collapse had not been created by Bush policies, oil price increases, etc. then the US automakers would still be surviving. And as far as the healthcare and pension issues. This is just another example of why we should have universal, governmentally funded healthcare. If that cost was taken off the books for the auto industry it would be healthy right now.

    If a company can't afford to give its employees a living wage, then it isn't healthy enough to be functioning as a business.

    Snottly remark coming....Oh please I feel like vomiting....Are you saying the President Bush made the auto industry make bad gas guzzling useless cars?...I don't agree with anything you said...While Honda and Toyota were making better cars no inovation came out of Detroit. That my dear and the union wages...caused their demise, not the government. As for healthcare universal health care, it works where? Taking it off the books of the automaker doesn't solve anything but more people on the government dole. If they wanted to they could give the money for healthcare to their employees as part of their salary and let the employees control their own health care. This would make everyone happy.
    As for a living wage, what exactly is it? And who decides it? People should be paid what they are worth. No one should get a salary they have not truly earned. Period end of story...

    bad decisions all the way around in the american auto industry. That is why their in trouble and frankly I don't want to pay for their bad mistakes

    Christina[/quote]

    Actually, if you check the quality ratings Toyota has slipped behind Ford, who seems to be doing the most things right among the US automakers.And there IS a lot of innovation coming out of Detroit, it's just maybe too late. We all should have listened to Jimmy Carter.
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    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    We all should have listened to Jimmy Carter.
    He was the prophet when it came to the global environemental/oil crisis. I really hope that Obama puts the solar panels back on the roof of the White House to really set the stage.
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    Bad address email on file fvc2020's Avatar
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    Actually, if you check the quality ratings Toyota has slipped behind Ford, who seems to be doing the most things right among the US automakers.And there IS a lot of innovation coming out of Detroit, it's just maybe too late. We all should have listened to Jimmy Carter.[/quote]

    Just on that note I drive a fabulous Ford Focus fully loaded gets 33 mpg and drives like no tomorrow, however its a newer model, and was redesigned recently. Yes I know they are making changes, but I think it might be a little too late(hope not love my car and my husband loves his F150)

    christina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet View Post
    Maybe you're not aware that:


    For years, the executives, stockholders, and workers have had it pretty good. Now that the going has gotten tough, the workers have voluntarily rolled back their compensation and the stockholders have lost huge amounts of paper value. Meanwhile, the CEO got a raise.
    To the best of my knowledge, this certainly not yet happened in Canada with the CAW. And poor CEO, it must be really tough living off only 2.2 million per year. My deepest sympathies.
    Last edited by eyemanflying; 11-19-2008 at 04:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubendol View Post
    I pretty much disagree. This is not a union failing. This is a governmental failing. If the Economic collapse had not been created by Bush policies, oil price increases, etc. then the US automakers would still be surviving. And as far as the healthcare and pension issues. This is just another example of why we should have universal, governmentally funded healthcare. If that cost was taken off the books for the auto industry it would be healthy right now.

    If a company can't afford to give its employees a living wage, then it isn't healthy enough to be functioning as a business.
    The union most certainly is a major contributing factor. Nobody could forsee the current situation to it's extent, but it certainly is a combination of all the above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Machol View Post
    Everyone involved should sacrifice if they want US tax dollars. This includes the executives who should not be allowed to make any more than the President of the United States. In fact, I would reduce their compensation to no more then a member of Congress gets.
    Excellent opinion and interesting view Steve.

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    Sounds Great!!
    I can't wait for universal health care,
    I also can't wait to pay less and get more,
    Someone please answer,
    where is the government going to get the money to pay for universal healthcare?
    Right now I make between $50k and $70k and my health insurance is 100% provided by my employer. I'm not lucky, I earned this with years of hard work. I have a feeling I'm going to be paying for my jobless lazy neighbor's health coverage.
    But hey, we will finally get great health care, just look at England's health system. Oh and 1 more thing, when the government gives you money for what ever reason, they also get to tell you what to do with it!

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    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    The answer is so simple, you’re gonna kick yourself.

    If you don’t have to pay what you’re paying for health insurance to a for-profit company, and your employer doesn’t have to pay that either, than there is all that money available for taxes to pay for the program.

    Medicare operates at a 3-5% overhead. For-Profit health insurance operates at a 20% overhead (for the profit and the multi-million dollar CEO salaries). The US pays $6000 per person in the country on health insurance and it doesn’t cover everyone. Countries with universal healthcare pay $3000 per person and cover everyone.

    Sooooooo, if we had universal healthcare, we would pay less money per person, everyone pays through a slight increase in taxes (that costs less than we’re currently paying for health insurance) and by spreading the risk across the entire population, the cost of the risk is reduced and everyone’s expense on healthcare decreases.
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    England? Try Canada. Free universal health care is a "sacred cow" here in Canada, but it continues to eat more and more percentage wise of the Provincial and Federal budget.
    Everywhere people scream if they don't get the healthcare they feel they deserve, and demand more and more coverage for everything under the sun, including every "alternative" crackpot cure on the planet.
    On the plus side, we do enjoy very high quality medical care, taxpayer funded, (NOT FREE) and, although non-urgent care can take a long time to receive, urgent care is normally delivered in a timely manner, although even urgent care is beginning to fall under the weight of the monster we have created. For all its shortcoming, It is still a valued concept, and knowing that our poor can still receive quality care, and middle class people are not bankrupted by unexpected illness, I still value it.

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myodisc23 View Post
    Sounds Great!!
    I can't wait for universal health care,
    I also can't wait to pay less and get more,
    Someone please answer,
    where is the government going to get the money to pay for universal healthcare?...
    When you get sick, a number of things can happen:

    You die. Sometimes taxpayers then get to pay for your offspring to be raised. Sometimes taxpayers pay for you to be buried.

    You get well without any medical help.

    You get medical attention and pay out of pocket.

    You get medical attention and your insurance (including medicaid) pays for it. This insurance could be paid by you entirely, partly by you, or entirely by your employer, in leiu of monetary wages.

    You get medical attention and can't pay for it, so the provider passes the cost on to all other payers.

    You get medical attention and can't pay for it, so the government pays the provider.

    One way or another, you pay for your healthcare, and part of other people's. With universal healthcare, the money all comes from one place, everyone's standard of care is the same, and there's more money for care, since the profit and high management salaries are gone.
    ...Just ask me...

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    Bad address email on file fvc2020's Avatar
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    Are you guys saying that Universal Health Care is good for doctors of any type? Where do we as an industry come out? Are all of you ready to live on medicaid payments?.....Let me know.....


    Christina

    ps I like the small tax increase to cover uhc...

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fvc2020 View Post
    Are you guys saying that Universal Health Care is good for doctors of any type? Where do we as an industry come out? Are all of you ready to live on medicaid payments?.....Let me know.....


    Christina

    ps I like the small tax increase to cover uhc...
    What do you want - union wages? :p;)
    ...Just ask me...

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    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    First:

    The tax increase will be less than you’re already paying for healthcare, so it is a net cut on your expenses. Just because it is a tax, doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing if it reduces expenditures in other areas.

    Second:

    Unfortunately, the plan currently being proposed is not my first choice (Medicare for all would provide the best benefit to doctors and patients). But as far as payment to doctors goes, if we did Medicare for all, then you would have ONE insurance company to bill (the government would act as insurer, not as employer). So costs go down in the office since less man-hours would be spent on billing and adjusting bills.
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