Christian Right

[Spexvet]

...
If all that sounds contradictory, I will try to clarify.

No need. You are clear - perfectly clear. I, however, disagree with virtually everything in the post, except

If everyone was a "perfect Christian" ... then there would be no need for government.

I can judge anything I darn well please.

How do you know that doctors who perform abortions are not, in fact, performing god's work?

[QDO1]

I have a question. Why is the Christian Right anti-gay and anti-gay marriage, but pro-death penalty and pro-gun ownership.

Maybe I am wrong about the last two, and then this can be closed. But if I am not, it just does not seem to make sense to me.

Because:
- Most of them are not Christians, they are just pidgeon holed
- They cant make decisions for themselves, they have to follow the crowd
- Peer pressure and politics has undermined thier fundamental beliefs
- Mixing politics and religion is fundamentally stupid

Being a Athiest with morals and values, taking decisions on a case by case basis, is actually a whole lot easier and honest

[Grubendol]

Being a Athiest with morals and values, taking decisions on a case by case basis, is actually a whole lot easier and honest

I love you for this statement. I know others will hate you for it, but I love you for it.

[LilKim]

Hear hear QD!

I was beginning to wonder if this wonderfully inflammatory thread had died off...

[Jacqui]

Being a Athiest with morals and values, taking decisions on a case by case basis, is actually a whole lot easier and honest

As a Pagan, I'm in complete agreement.

[LilKim]

And let's not forget, not being able to pawn off the consequences of our actions on a higher power is what gives atheists morals, as well as not believing that there is anyplace better than what we've got right here on this fragile blue marble spinning in the cosmos.

[Jubilee]

You can celebrate your beliefs, and I can celebrate mine. I have friends from all walks of faith and life and I enjoy dicussions on what draws each of us in. I have never stated that athiests, agnostics, or other types of diests lack morals. Just as the same as I will be the first to profess that not all self-proclaimed Christians, live a Christ-like life.. or in a manner in which He would be proud of.

This big blue marble is great, and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. My whole goal, purpose if you will in life .. is to live in a such a manner that the world will be a better place cause I existed.

I also though have the hope, faith, and belief that there is more to this life.. and I find comfort and solace in knowing my family and friends that passed before me are in a place of peace and love. It seems to rest easier on my mind than thinking of them decaying 6 feet under the earth.

My opinions on abortion and the death penalty are both because of my belief about the sancitity of life. I do not think that this is dependent upon my religious beliefs. I don't think that killing someone is an affective means of deterrence, and in some cases.. I think it is easier on the perp as well. On the issue of abortion...

At 22 weeks, half the states will still allow you to get an abortion by choice..

In Florida, you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks without a doctor's consent.. however they have saved babies as young as 22 weeks gestation ... http://http://www.cbsnews.com/storie...n2502544.shtml

How can a viable "fetus" be destroyed through choice, but worthy to have hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to save its life?

Or as I mentioned before.. for mom it is a choice, but if dad punched mom, or tossed her down the stairs causing fetal death, it is a crime punishable by several years in jail. Far more time than what simple/aggravated assualt would bring.

The rationale does not coincide at all..

[QDO1]

And let's not forget, not being able to pawn off the consequences of our actions on a higher power is what gives atheists morals

That is actually 100% not correct. It is the fact that the athiest doesnt believe in the "higher power", that focuses one on the real consequenses of what one does, rather than abdicating responsibility and free thought elsewhere. Just because the Hindu, Christian, Jew or Moslem may believe in a "higher power", doesnt mean the Athiest is "given Morals"

as well as not believing that there is anyplace better than what we've got right here on this fragile blue marble spinning in the cosmos.

Again, Athiests dont have any hangups in accepting "life somewhere else" or "no life anywhere else" or wondering if "there is another planet out there that is a cess pit or superbly better than this place"

From experience of working with many religious people, from many faiths and beliefs is that THEY actually find it hard not to project thier belief systems onto everyone else

Example: "I believe god made the earth for life..." = "you dont believe there is a better place"

Example: "God said dont murder" = "because you dont murder, you gave adpopted my god's system"

In both examples, the behaviour pattern is not mutually exclusive to the athiest or religious person, or even between faiths

___

Again the original contention of the original posters question is that the behaviour of the Christian Right comes over as somewhat duplicitious. Saying we believe in one thing... then openly supporting another

[QDO1]

In Florida, you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks without a doctor's consent.. however they have saved babies as young as 22 weeks gestation ... http://http://www.cbsnews.com/storie...n2502544.shtml

How can a viable "fetus" be destroyed through choice, but worthy to have hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to save its life?

And this is where the advance in scientific techniques has provided a very difficult moral dillema

________

20 years ago, it would have been deemed morraly OK to abort at say 26 weeks, because the feotus was considered to be totally unviable, as medicine progresses, the viable goalpost is suddenly moved, and all previous moral goalposts turned on thier head. The moral decision is clearly being steered my many by scientific advancment

There are more moral questions than met the eye here:

Q. is it moraly right to abort at 22 weeks for any reason at all?
Q. is it morally right to support a baby out of the womb at 22 weeks?

For what it's worth, I would say there is no case for abortion, except for where the life of the child is adversly effecting the life of the mother - Wherupon a decision needs to be made where none of the anwers are correct, just one of the answers more correct than another. In this instance we can pontificate untill the cows come home, but the mother, father, close family and doctors usually live with the psychological and physical consequenses for a lifetime. it is at this point We need to offer support and care, not a moral tounge lashing

With regards to the Death penalty:
Q: How many people have been wrongly executed?

And don't mix up punishment and retribution, and justice... they are often 3 totally different things

[LilKim]

That is actually 100% not correct. It is the fact that the atheist doesn't believe in the "higher power", that focuses one on the real consequences of what one does, rather than abdicating responsibility and free thought elsewhere. Just because the Hindu, Christian, Jew or Moslem may believe in a "higher power", doesn't mean the Atheist is "given Morals"

Again, Atheists don't have any hangups in accepting "life somewhere else" or "no life anywhere else" or wondering if "there is another planet out there that is a cess pit or superbly better than this place"

That is actually 100% correct, and almost exactly what I stated in my original post. You just reworded it in a different way. What you took out of context was my statement "gives atheists morals". In no way did I mean that atheists are given morals by default, as compared to those believing in God. What I meant, was that taking responsibility for your own actions and not having a supreme being to fall back on for excuses is a greater moral motivator for atheists. I certainly wasn't implying that every atheist has morals.

If you hadn't read my previous posts on this thread and others here, I AM an atheist, and a little more besides. Why wouldn't I know somewhat about the philosophy I ascribe to? I don't give my opinion on anything unless I'm informed about it.

[Grubendol]

That is actually 100% correct, and almost exactly what I stated in my original post. You just reworded it in a different way. What you took out of context was my statement "gives atheists morals". In no way did I mean that atheists are given morals by default, as compared to those believing in God. What I meant, was that taking responsibility for your own actions and not having a supreme being to fall back on for excuses is a greater moral motivator for atheists. I certainly wasn't implying that every atheist has morals.

If you hadn't read my previous posts on this thread and others here, I AM an atheist, and a little more besides. Why wouldn't I know somewhat about the philosophy I ascribe to? I don't give my opinion on anything unless I'm informed about it.

Kim beat me to it. You two are saying the same thing!

[Bill West]

What a bunch of garbage.
As I said before. Ignorance is bliss.

[QDO1]

What a bunch of garbage.
As I said before. Ignorance is bliss.

Which bit is a bunch of garbage

And who is ignorant?