Christian Right

**Grubendol** · 11-06-2008, 12:41 PM

I think it’s important for all of us to remember that yesterday we were versus. Today, there is no me or you, there is Us…the U.S.

So, to that end, I am going to do my best to turn the other cheek to attacks, and to listen to any and all concerns worries and fears of those who disagree with me. You are no longer my opponent, you are family with a different opinion. Let’s work together to find a way out of the economic, social, and military problems of today…TOGETHER.

**B-Tech** · 11-06-2008, 01:44 PM

How would you feel if your Mother didn't give you the right to live...

**LilKim** · 11-06-2008, 01:51 PM

If our mothers aborted us, we wouldn't be able to feel sad or angry about it. Your question is moot.

**Jana Lewis** · 11-06-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by B-Tech

How would you feel if your Mother didn't give you the right to live...

Your question makes no sense.

**B-Tech** · 11-06-2008, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jana Lewis

Your question makes no sense.

How does the question make no sense? Think about it... If you mother had aborted you, you would not have had the joy of your children, grandchildren... you would not be breathing right now! What I am trying to say is that there are other options for mothers who don't want their children. At least give them up for adoption, give the child a chance!

**Jana Lewis** · 11-06-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by B-Tech

How does the question make no sense? Think about it... If you mother had aborted you, you would not have had the joy of your children, grandchildren... you would not be breathing right now! What I am trying to say is that there are other options for mothers who don't want their children. At least give them up for adoption, give the child a chance!

You asked me how I would "feel". I wouldn't "feel" anything since I wouldn't be here.

**Grubendol** · 11-06-2008, 03:06 PM

Could we please just cool it a little? Discussing abortion is a culture war issue that will never be resolved with this kind of discussion. All we do is wedge each other into our little pre-conceived nitches and no one is going to change their minds if we talk like this.

**jcasowder** · 11-06-2008, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Grubendol

Could we please just cool it a little? Discussing abortion is a culture war issue that will never be resolved with this kind of discussion. All we do is wedge each other into our little pre-conceived nitches and no one is going to change their minds if we talk like this.

Hear Hear! I don't believe in abortion, but I cannot make the decision for someone else when it does not affect my life. Personally, I believe we pay for ALL of our transgressions in the end. We can have fun picking on each other, but remember to SHOW THE LOVE!!!!;)

I personally love to ruffle feathers, but not to be mean - that's how we have fun in our family. It's a game to us - the one that gets mad or takes it personal first loses. AND they get tormented more!! :p Since I'm not good at expressing emotion with what I type, people tend to think I'm really mean. I'm probably the goofiest person you'll ever meet, so please remember that whenever I post!:hammer:

**B-Tech** · 11-06-2008, 03:54 PM

I was simply trying to offer another view. Well, I said what I wanted to say and am choosing to advocate for the unborn... now I got to get back to work! We could be at this all day...:)

**DragonLensmanWV** · 11-06-2008, 03:58 PM

Too true. Since the majority of Americans want the option it should be legal. Those who don't want to aren't forced to and those that do aren't forced not to.
After all who will do the final judging? You should not judge so unless you think God is incapable of doing so.

**Jubilee** · 11-06-2008, 05:25 PM

While I try not to judge those who have made the decision to abort, I do disparage their decision. Note. that is the decision itself, and not the person. I do have friends that have had this experience, and I also know many leaders against abortion who fight against it because they feel they made one of the greatest mistakes of their life (such as a local woman I met at a local church's health fair... she cried stating that she felt that the only way to attone for her sin was to save as many babies as she could...)

However, I also don't buy the arguement "if you don't like it, don't have one." To me this is akin to not doing/saying anything when a person abuses their partner, children, parents.. because it is their choice, not mine. Isn't removing the right to live the ultimate form of abuse? Shouldn't we be advocating for those who need our help and be willing to give of ourselves to do so?

**drk** · 11-06-2008, 07:18 PM

Just to note:

1. When God created the earth, there was no evil or sin. Man messed that up. God creates us eternal. Now you may spend your eternity in God's house or elsewhere, but you're eternal. Enjoy that thought.

2. When Jesus comes back, he's going to kill a lot of people.

3. God killed a lot of people.

4. Jesus and God have the right to kill whomever they please. They cannot be judged. They hold the key to existence and life, and truth and fact. Everything. You cannot question them.

5. We don't have the right to kill, including abortion. It's God's existence, not ours.

6. Jesus is not a pacifist. He doesn't recommend dying needlessly. He didn't die to promote peace. He didn't even want to go through the process, but he obeyed.

7. Look at God-run ancient Israel. It had swift and terrible justice. Even the early Church had a couple of incidents like that.

8. Personal "ethics" vs. what a government can do is a tricky question. If everyone was a "perfect Christian" (i.e., as God designed the world originally) then there would be no need for government. We'd be directly governed by God himself.

In a world full of evil, there is no "right" way to govern a country. But God did let the Israelites kill their enemies.

Jesus' standards for his followers were given with full knowledge (IMO) that they would be beaten, tortured, martyred, etc. for His glory. It wasn't necessarily a blueprint for a government.

If all that sounds contradictory, I will try to clarify.

**Grubendol** · 11-06-2008, 07:39 PM

I understand what you are saying, but you also have to keep in mind that this is a secular state we live in. Separation of Church and State are written into the foundation of what this nation is. You are making a religious argument. That is your religion, but not mine. So your argument cannot be used as a foundation for laws in this nation.

**B-Tech** · 11-06-2008, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Just to note:

1. When God created the earth, there was no evil or sin. Man messed that up. God creates us eternal. Now you may spend your eternity in God's house or elsewhere, but you're eternal. Enjoy that thought.

2. When Jesus comes back, he's going to kill a lot of people.

3. God killed a lot of people.

4. Jesus and God have the right to kill whomever they please. They cannot be judged. They hold the key to existence and life, and truth and fact. Everything. You cannot question them.

5. We don't have the right to kill, including abortion. It's God's existence, not ours.

6. Jesus is not a pacifist. He doesn't recommend dying needlessly. He didn't die to promote peace. He didn't even want to go through the process, but he obeyed.

7. Look at God-run ancient Israel. It had swift and terrible justice. Even the early Church had a couple of incidents like that.

8. Personal "ethics" vs. what a government can do is a tricky question. If everyone was a "perfect Christian" (i.e., as God designed the world originally) then there would be no need for government. We'd be directly governed by God himself.

In a world full of evil, there is no "right" way to govern a country. But God did let the Israelites kill their enemies.

Jesus' standards for his followers were given with full knowledge (IMO) that they would be beaten, tortured, martyred, etc. for His glory. It wasn't necessarily a blueprint for a government.

If all that sounds contradictory, I will try to clarify.

I agree with you on all these points! God is God and we are not... an I am glad for that:)

**Websta** · 11-06-2008, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Grubendol

Could we please just cool it a little? Discussing abortion is a culture war issue that will never be resolved with this kind of discussion. All we do is wedge each other into our little pre-conceived nitches and no one is going to change their minds if we talk like this.

I dont condone abortion, neither do I vilify those who go that route. Each individual will have their own reason for doing what they are doing, and for one to say that it is wrong, is very narrow-minded. There are reason why people need/want to have an abortion. But this is their choice, and isnt that what this should be all about - Free Choice! If they made a mistake, they will certainly pay the price at a later stage in their life 9however that may be). If it was the right thing to do then BRAVO on them.
Imagine your wife/daughter/sister being raped and was pregnant with the attackers baby, and then being "forced" to have this baby, as aborting has been deemed illegal. I know what my preferred option would be.

This is only my humble opinion, but I believe you can not in any way, label people unless you have walked in their shoes.

**gemstone** · 11-06-2008, 07:51 PM

It really makes no since for those that do not believe in God to debate with those that do not believe in God. The only debate that would make since in that regard is, is God real.

**Bill West** · 11-06-2008, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Do you believe that all miscarriages, which are not baptised, are ineligible for salvation? That's the Christian rule, isn't it?

Baptism does not cause a person to be saved. :finger:

**Jubilee** · 11-06-2008, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Websta

Imagine your wife/daughter/sister being raped and was pregnant with the attackers baby, and then being "forced" to have this baby, as aborting has been deemed illegal. I know what my preferred option would be.

This is only my humble opinion, but I believe you can not in any way, label people unless you have walked in their shoes.

More people have walked in these shoes than you know. As I stated earlier, I recently had someone inside my "inner circle" go through this experience. They were raped, and was impregnated by it.

We talked to many people, both religious and non. Read forums sponsored by RAINN, Out of the Darkness, and many other sites devoted to sexual abuse survivors and talked with many people. This along with groups support sessions. There are many vocal groups of women out there who feel like this life that was created is the one bright thing about the incident. That it is not the child's fault. .and that by choosing to end the child's life would be a form of punishment and victimization on par or surpassing their own.

To be honest, We did look at the possibility of abortion. Talked to a clinic in the next state over. Discussed what it would take.. however she felt that she couldn't live with the abortion. Since all she wanted to be was a mom, that killing another life would be the opposite of why she wanted to be one. This was a decision that was made with the help of a therapist with no religious affiliation. An adoption was arranged, the paperwork was signed.. and last week.. passed the 3o day probationary period to allow either party to change their mind. so it's official.

Contrary to public thought, making the child go away does not get rid of the emotional turmoil and pain of an assualt. Whether abortion is chosen or not, these women have to live with their decisions and their consequences.

**Jubilee** · 11-06-2008, 11:13 PM

So at what point does a woman's choice become a crime?

yes, it is somewhat incendiary, however.. I can not wrap my head around why at some places.. a mother can simply choose not to have her baby and get an abortion at 5 months, but in the same state.. someone else causing the loss is charged with murder.

How can it be one person's choice.. but for someone else.. including the other biological parent, it is murder?

**Websta** · 11-07-2008, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jubilee

More people have walked in these shoes than you know. .

It would be naive of me to think that this has not happened. All I am saying is that many of the people who either propose or oppose the abortion issue will see it from their point of view.

One positive experience for one is not the same positive experience for another. This was my reason for not labeling people.

I also dont think that "making the child go away" will ease the pain of the ordeal. Some will see it as the only way out, others dont. Isn't that what makes us unique as humans, that we are all different and have our own expereinces (whether good or bad?)
But again, in my humble opinion, it comes down to people having a choice, and being able to exercise that right.

**Jubilee** · 11-07-2008, 06:56 AM

Rape, Incest and the life of the mother are usually exceptions given to banning abortion.

However with most abortions occurring around 8 weeks gestation, the child already has a heart, a brain, is constantly moving.. and is already forming those neural pathways..

At 12 weeks where most people put the cut off at..The baby has reflexes, and it producing urine.. and developing those nerve pathways at an incredible rate.

With nerves comes feeling. Maybe not on the emotional level, but most likely also feels pain.

A total of 839,226 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2004 from 49 reporting areas. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 238 in 2004. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years for 2004, the same since 2000.

If the fetus was considered "living" that is a higher incidence of death from "choice" than many cancers.

www.cdc.gov

For some of us, we feel that this is a travesty to allow a choice to kill so many unborn children. Even if exceptions were made in cases where the pregnancy is putting the mother's health at risk.. including the psychological affects of abuse...the numbers don't add up.

According to a report by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a survey of abortion patients in 2004 indicated that only 1% were having an abortion to end a pregnancy that resulted from a rape. Less then 0.5% were aborting a baby that was conceived through incest. And what’s more, these numbers have not changed since the survey the organization did in 1987.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf

So while most of America on either side of the coin might agree with the rape, incest, endangerment motif, that would only account for around 113-114 thousand.. not 840.

**LilKim** · 11-07-2008, 07:09 AM

Jubilee, I know that not as many as we tend to think end up getting abortions after being impregnated by their rapist, but what about the ones who do? It's nice to at least have a choice in the matter, instead of being put in the same scenario as the women in Darfur, who are gang-raped by militants for days and weeks on end, forced to bear that child and are forever scarred by the shame of it? I think that's the main thing, is to have the option available, even if you don't pursue it.;)

**Grubendol** · 11-07-2008, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bill West

Baptism does not cause a person to be saved. :finger:

Depends on your brand of Christianity, and therein lies the problem of injecting religion into this conversation. Who gets to choose which version is right?

**Bill West** · 11-07-2008, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Do you believe that all miscarriages, which are not baptised, are ineligible for salvation? That's the Christian rule, isn't it?

What about the thief on the cross?

**Jubilee** · 11-07-2008, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by LilKim

Jubilee, I know that not as many as we tend to think end up getting abortions after being impregnated by their rapist, but what about the ones who do? It's nice to at least have a choice in the matter, instead of being put in the same scenario as the women in Darfur, who are gang-raped by militants for days and weeks on end, forced to bear that child and are forever scarred by the shame of it? I think that's the main thing, is to have the option available, even if you don't pursue it.;)

While I personally do not think I would choose to have an abortion, even after rape.. I am stating that most people in America.. and even many religions will accept the exception to Rape, Incest and the life of the mother.

However as less than 15% of all abortions are for this reason it doesn't hold up well as the argument for keeping it uncontrolled. It is feasible to mandate it is for only these extreme cases and have it be offered by their health care specialist who would be able to evaluate the criteria necessary.