Christian Right

[fjpod]

A number of posters above have said...if I or my family were threatened, yes, I would kill. This may all be well and good, and even justified in almost every case. This is a primal instinct. But what hasn't been said is what would you do if someone else, unknown to you, or someone of a differnet culture was threatened. Would you step forward and defend their right to live? I think Jesus would want you to, even if they were perceived as criminals. (consider the story or Mary Magdeline). And based on many of the responses above, I think we need the help of government to protect us from those primal instincts. Defending yourself (and yours) isf the most important thing to YOU. What if it causes harm to others? Tough questions...

[LilKim]

A number of posters above have said...if I or my family were threatened, yes, I would kill. This may all be well and good, and even justified in almost every case. This is a primal instinct. But what hasn't been said is what would you do if someone else, unknown to you, or someone of a differnet culture was threatened. Would you step forward and defend their right to live? I think Jesus would want you to, even if they were perceived as criminals. (consider the story or Mary Magdeline). And based on many of the responses above, I think we need the help of government to protect us from those primal instincts. Defending yourself (and yours) isf the most important thing to YOU. What if it causes harm to others? Tough questions...

To answer your question honestly: I might, as long as it was a situation I could also defend myself in. I'm 5'4" @130 lbs, so there's not much physically that I could do to help someone being attacked. I would call the police and stay with the victim if they were injured. For me, it wouldn't have anything to do with Jesus or a belief in right or wrong, but helping out a fellow being if I can would also be instinct. I'd do it for an animal too, although I probably wouldn't try to kill him, as much as I'd like to ;) Courts aren't as sympathetic to defending animals as they are to defending people with force.

[For-Life]

A number of posters above have said...if I or my family were threatened, yes, I would kill. This may all be well and good, and even justified in almost every case. This is a primal instinct. But what hasn't been said is what would you do if someone else, unknown to you, or someone of a differnet culture was threatened. Would you step forward and defend their right to live? I think Jesus would want you to, even if they were perceived as criminals. (consider the story or Mary Magdeline). And based on many of the responses above, I think we need the help of government to protect us from those primal instincts. Defending yourself (and yours) isf the most important thing to YOU. What if it causes harm to others? Tough questions...

Did Jesus step in on the Mary Magdeline situation with a sword or words? He took an alternative method.

[Spexvet]

I have never understood why in general, one party supports the right to have an abortion, but is completely against capital punishment.

One party supports a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body - they do not support abortion. There is a difference. The old saying is that you have to be willing to die for freedom. We fight wars for freedom. We make all kinds of sacrifices for freedom. If you aren't willing to make these sacrifices for freedom, some people will call you a traitor. Consider that allowing choice is a sacrifice that we make for freedom.

...What happens when a child is born to a mother that was refused an abortion and that child grows up to become a murderer?

So it's just a matter of timing? Capitol punishment is just an aborion performed after a crime was committed, and an abortion is just pre-emptive capitol punishment? Interesting. Except for one thing - capitol punishment is performed on a human being and an abortion is not.

Which side is to blame?

Why must there be blame?

... Had there been capital punishment, he may have been deterred from the killing.
...

Look at our prisons. Capitol punishment does not deter crime.

I am pro-life.
I am against abortion.
I am against capital punishment.
Is there a party for that?

Yes. Saturday night, 9:00 pm - bring a covered dish and your beverage of choice. :D
Seriously, that's the problem. We need more political parties.

Actually Marc, I do support it,
...

Do you support abortion, or choice?

A number of posters above have said...if I or my family were threatened, yes, I would kill.

I've never been in that position, and I hope that I never will be. I would like to think that I would die for my family - but kill for them? Could I really kill?

... I think Jesus would want you to, even if they were perceived as criminals....

He would die for them, but what makes you think He would kill for them? I don't think that there is any evidence that He would. If that was His M.O., wouldn't He have taken up arms against the Romans? He certainly had the opportunity and ability, yet He did not. Instead of saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", wouldn't He have just stabbed those who threw stones?

[LilKim]

Do you support abortion, or choice?

Choice, to be specific, although I'm not entirely against the idea of abortion. Both my mom and a couple of my aunts had to have them when they got pregnant at an older age, despite my mom being on birth control. My mom had a hard enough time supporting just her and myself, adding a baby with possible health problems would have done us in. She didn't want to, but felt it was necessary.

[Jubilee]

One party supports a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body - they do not support abortion. There is a difference. The old saying is that you have to be willing to die for freedom. We fight wars for freedom. We make all kinds of sacrifices for freedom. If you aren't willing to make these sacrifices for freedom, some people will call you a traitor. Consider that allowing choice is a sacrifice that we make for freedom.

The difference is if I am willing to die.. it is my life at stake. In the case of abortion, you are sacrificing an innocent life for someone else's convienence. (in most cases, I do realize that at times it is necessary for the life of the mother)


So it's just a matter of timing? Capitol punishment is just an aborion performed after a crime was committed, and an abortion is just pre-emptive capitol punishment? Interesting. Except for one thing - capitol punishment is performed on a human being and an abortion is not.

This is the crux of a lot of the debate. When does human life begin? How do we define something as living and sentient? While the child might be out of sight, the fact is its growing, and developing, in much the same manner as children do outside the womb. This isn't a tumor of cells that are hell bent on destroying surrounding tissue. This is the development of another human being. Going through the same process that each of us did to be born.

Why must there be blame?
Human nature.. gotta figure out the how and why. To absolve us of responsibility or to learn from it.

Look at our prisons. Capitol punishment does not deter crime.
We agree on something!

Yes. Saturday night, 9:00 pm - bring a covered dish and your beverage of choice. :D
Seriously, that's the problem. We need more political parties.
Make that 2 things!

As for the arguements about food/money/timing/etc.. there are plenty of groups out there that would assist mothers going through an unplanned pregnancy. There are couples out there seeking babies to adopt who would pay for the medical care and living assistance to ensure a healthy child and smooth adoption.

To deny another life the chance to live, because of 9 months of inconveinence is not a choice I would be proud to make.

[bob_f_aboc]

I have never understood why in general, one party supports the right to have an abortion, but is completely against capital punishment.

One party supports a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body - they do not support abortion. There is a difference. ?

I never said they support abortion. Please re-read the post.

So it's just a matter of timing? Capitol punishment is just an aborion performed after a crime was committed, and an abortion is just pre-emptive capitol punishment? Interesting. Except for one thing - capitol punishment is performed on a human being and an abortion is not.

What do you consider a human being? What is a fetus if not human?

Merriam-Webster defines life as:

1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

I believe that a fertilized cell qualifies as life from the moment of conception.

[Spexvet]

...I believe that a fertilized cell qualifies as life from the moment of conception.

I don't.

[MarcE]

Actually Marc, I do support it,

I knew that. I was just pointing out that your own words contradict your rationalization that killing a person is OK is some circumstances.

[MarcE]

I don't.

How convienent.

[Jubilee]

So Spex, when does life begin? When does that collection of cells have an inherent right to life and able to have at least the same protections that a laboratory animal does?

[Spexvet]

...
1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction...

Do you believe that all miscarriages, which are not baptised, are ineligible for salvation? That's the Christian rule, isn't it?

[Spexvet]

...I believe that a fertilized cell qualifies as life from the moment of conception.

So Spex, when does life begin? When does that collection of cells have an inherent right to life and able to have at least the same protections that a laboratory animal does?

I don't know. Nobody knows. Many people (like bob) believe that they know. But they don't. That's why each individual woman should be allowed to make up her own mind, and choose for herself.

What I do know is that to receive all the rights and priviledges of American citizenship, you must be born in The U.S. or born elsewhere, and naturalized. But you must be born.

[Johns]

IThat's why each individual woman should be allowed to make up her own mind, and choose for herself.

Well, except for the unborn women.:o

[MarcE]

[quote=Spexvet;271165]Except for one thing - capitol punishment is performed on a human being and an abortion is not.

quote]

The main difference is that one is peformed on someone that has done nothing wrong, no voice, no way to defend itself, no vote, no lawyer, no appeals, no rights, no trial, no jury . . . .

And the other had a chance to do something worthwhile with their life and instead chose to cause immense pain for other humans.

And no I don't support capital punishment for the same reason that I don't think it's OK to shoot the neighbors pet because it annoys you.

But there is a big difference between capital punishment and abortion. And anyone who thinks abortion should be allowed, should have no say on the issues of capital punishment. It just proves they are hypocritical.

[MarcE]

What I do know is that to receive all the rights and priviledges of American citizenship, you must be born in The U.S. or born elsewhere, and naturalized. But you must be born.

But one person has the legal right to take away the ability to be born. The judge, and jury of an innocent person.

The legal and moral conundrums just keep piling up.


Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

[Spexvet]

Well, except for the unborn women.:o

Any unborn woman who wants an abortion should be allowed to have an abortion. :hammer:

[Spexvet]

But one person has the legal right to take away the ability to be born. The judge, and jury of an innocent person.

The legal and moral conundrums just keep piling up.


Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

Should an unborn "whatever" have the right to take away a grown woman's right not to give birth?

[Jubilee]

Should the actions/choices/etc of a woman and their consequences take precedence over the life of another?

There are many ways to prevent pregnancy. And while none is 100% except abstinence, that is a risk one takes when they are sexually active.. along with disease.

[Jubilee]

Do you believe that all miscarriages, which are not baptised, are ineligible for salvation? That's the Christian rule, isn't it?

Depends on the particular branch.

I consider myself a Christian. However I do not believe in the "Original Sin" . I believe that I will be held accountable for my own transgressions and not for what Adam and Eve did back in the Garden of Eden.

My particular faith believes that baptism should occur at an age where the person making the commitment to live a Christ -like life understands what it means, and is capable of sorting right from wrong. Typically around 8 years old. Miscarriages, babies, and small children.. along with those who lack the mental capacity to make such decisions are special souls who will be welcomed back to the Lord to continue their learning and growth in the next life.

[Spexvet]

Should the actions/choices/etc of a woman and their consequences take precedence over the life of another?

Unfortunately, in this situation, there is no win/win solution. The actions/choices/etc of one entity often take precedence over another. You want the toilet seat left down, your husband leaves it up. Someone gets their way, someone doesn't. Bush wants to invade Iraq, Iraq doesn't want Bush to invade. Should Bush's actions/choices/etc and their consequences take precedence over the soveriegnty of another nation?

There are many ways to prevent pregnancy. And while none is 100% except abstinence, that is a risk one takes when they are sexually active.. along with disease.

I've posted it before:

Banning a behavior doesn't eliminate it. If you want to reduce abortions:
1. Teach children how to avoid getting pregnant (preaching abstinence doesn't work - ask Sarah Palin).
2. Provide free condoms to everyone and anyone.
3. Remove the stigma of being unwed or teenage and pregnant.
4. Support pregnant females - yes, it'll cost you, but it's for something good, right?
5. Support parents - this will also cost you.
6. Make adoption easier, on both the giving and receiving sides.

Do these things and watch the number of abortions plummet.

[Spexvet]

... Miscarriages, babies, and small children.. along with those who lack the mental capacity to make such decisions are special souls who will be welcomed back to the Lord to continue their learning and growth in the next life.

If this is what you truely believe, why are you against abortion? All that would happen is that "this" "lifetime" will be bypassed, they will go directly to the Lord (is that such a bad thing, in your opinion?) and then they get another chance.

[LilKim]

I knew that. I was just pointing out that your own words contradict your rationalization that killing a person is OK is some circumstances.

Marc, I don't quite see the contraction between being pro-choice and being pro-death penalty. Could you please elaborate your view on this? Thanks.

[Jubilee]

Originally Posted by Spexvet
Banning a behavior doesn't eliminate it. If you want to reduce abortions:
1. Teach children how to avoid getting pregnant (preaching abstinence doesn't work - ask Sarah Palin).
2. Provide free condoms to everyone and anyone.
3. Remove the stigma of being unwed or teenage and pregnant.
4. Support pregnant females - yes, it'll cost you, but it's for something good, right?
5. Support parents - this will also cost you.
6. Make adoption easier, on both the giving and receiving sides.

Do these things and watch the number of abortions plummet.

On point 1. I do agree that more than abstinence needs to be taught. In many places health/sex ed programs exist that address birthcontrol, and the myths regarding in how to prevent pregnancy.

2) The Planned Parenthood near where I went to college at certainly had a lovely "condom bowl" at the reception counter, in the bathrooms, etc where you could grab a handful.. in all kinds of different colors, textures, etc.

3) Is there really much of a stigma anymore for unwed, teenage and pregnant? There aren't many "unwed mothers" homes anymore, we have school programs in place to help them stay on track academically, and we celebrate it in the news with Jamie Lynn Spears...

4) As I mentioned before, there are MANY MANY programs that support expectent mothers. Crisis Pregnancy Centers, WIC, Medicaid, various chuch organizations, my local health department gave me a list of 20 agencies in my city that offer something to help a pregnant woman in crisis. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical Care, Child Care Assistance, Education.. it was all there.

5) Financially, emotionally, how? I think for most it is a matter of pride. They don't want to ASK for help.. though it is there. There are several church based organizations that offer financial and food assistance.. along with parenting help. (Focus on the Family anyone?)

The states also have programs in place for assistance. The local hospital has a reduced medical care plan.. Help is out there and available. Just got to look..

6) I agree with making adoption easier. It is getting there... What drawbacks do you see on the giving side?

[Jubilee]

If this is what you truely believe, why are you against abortion? All that would happen is that "this" "lifetime" will be bypassed, they will go directly to the Lord (is that such a bad thing, in your opinion?) and then they get another chance.

Because I don't think that is a choice for us mere mortals to make. The logic you are expressing reminds me of the thoughts of murder/suicide. I can't imagine life w/o my children.. nor my children going through life knowing what I did. So it is better for them to die, than to have to live with this..

Sorry.. doesn't absolve you of the sin...