OK, I need the help of women Optiboarders...

[Barry Santini]

Hi! I feel I need womens' opinions because I think they'll be sensitive to my predicament.

Knowing that women have traditionally spoken out about the "glass" ceiling (the invisible barrier that prevents them from attaining equal respect, compensation, status and accomplishment as men), I'm hoping you can sympathize with my plight:

Why is it, despite my 35+ years as a dispenser, and considering the number of people who come and tell others that "just trust him, he make you look great!", that most women will turn to my (untrained/unskilled) female receptionists) and ask *them* for advice on their eyewear?

Why is it that I get *no* respect?!

Women, I feel your *pain* with the invisible barrier!

Barry
(a kindred spirit, or, at least a developing feminine side)

[carlos83eye]

I'd like "ONLY WOMEN" to respond to my questions too. For some reason I pay attention to Jacquis responces over Harry's.......:p

But isn't what I and all those women are doing, the same thing you are. I think advice from another man who went through what you went through and got out of it would be far more helpful than asking women why they think, women in general think, men don't do fashion.

Reason: 99.99999% of all women and gay guys KNOW FASHION......... You = .oooo1%
So either ALOT of straight men start learning about fashion to change the stereotype, or ur going to have to start wearing pink cat-eyes :shiner:

Besides, I noticed (working as 1 guy with 3 women ) that even though advice is asked on frame selection to women, if they're ever stuck on 2-3 pairs......I'm usually asked for a male perspective, and a Determaning Factor for the final sale........

Wrap-Up: Your opinion matters, you might have to show your knowledge by selecting a few pairs of good looking frames for them, or wait till they ask for a male opinion, but most of this is socially and unconciously engraved in most peoples brain and isn't about you, but who they feel MORE comfortable going to first

P.S. Besides, I don't want every "legally blonde" chick coming up to me
"Like, Um, Aren't these Wayferrers like totally to die for" :hammer:

[FullCircle]

Reason: 99.99999% of all women and gay guys KNOW FASHION......... You = .oooo1%

I will admit, I fall into that .00001% of women that do not "know" fashion. Hence reason #635 why I work in the lab. I mean, I know when a frame looks hideous but if it's borderline then I'm not the girl to talk to.

Which is why I ask my heterosexual male boss for his opinion. He has taste in style and detail like that.

I think many women ask women because they think men won't give them a straight answer. They think you'll either tell them what you think you want them to hear, have no taste or are trying to get in their pants.

You can thank When Harry Met Sally for the latter. :bbg:

[Jacqui]

I'm gonna stay outa this one !!

[optical24/7]

A fellers opinion here, but, Barry, do you wear "fashion" yourself, or do you dress like a banker? (or the dude at the GAP). There lies a lot of your answer..


imho

[Barry Santini]

A fellers opinion here, but, Barry, do you wear "fashion" yourself, or do you dress like a banker? (or the dude at the GAP). There lies a lot of your answer..


imho

Yes, there may be lies (my own). No, I'm not a fashion horse, but I don't stink either. I don't dress at the GAP, but not far away (Nord).

I really feel I don't have to be a fashion plate to be accorded some respect in this area. I may, however, lean to more *gayness*...

B

[karen]

Barry, it's really quite simple. We want to look better than every other woman so we dress with them in mind. We ask their opinions because we know they do the same thing and will recommend things with that in mind. We like it when you think we look hot but we LOVE it when a girls thinks "damn, I wish I looked as good as she does" We also think they won't lie or that we can tell if they try to! ;)

We also think a lot of you don't know much about fashion. Sorry, it's true. Think of it this way. If I am buying a table saw I will walk past the girl at the hardware store to ask a man what I need. It's just the way of things.

[cocoisland58]

The truth is when shopping I will gravitate to the person who I most indentify with. If it is a choice between a woman who dresses matronly or a guy who knows how to wear clothes, I go with the guy. Gay guys get special attention just because they are more fun.

[Johns]

Dude!! Is that YOU in the brown suit and the tie!?!

And the chicks STILL aren't flocking to you for fashion advice?!? :D:D:D


(I can talk. I still wear the shoes with laces in them! I feel your pain brother!;))

[cocoisland58]

I think many women ask women because they think men won't give them a straight answer. They think you'll either tell them what you think you want them to hear, have no taste or are trying to get in their pants.

Oh for goodness sake. Our husbands we expect this behavior out of but not a sales clerk. We can smell dishonesty a mile a way and truely a guy that admits he's clueless is rather charming. From him I might buy something.

[Johns]

I think many women ask women because they think men won't give them a straight answer. They think you'll either tell them what you think you want them to hear, have no taste or are trying to get in their pants.

Pants? You're wearing pants? And WE'RE the fashion clueless?:o

(At least you didn't say slacks!):D

[Barry Santini]

Barry, it's really quite simple. We want to look better than every other woman so we dress with them in mind. We ask their opinions because we know they do the same thing and will recommend things with that in mind. We like it when you think we look hot but we LOVE it when a girls thinks "damn, I wish I looked as good as she does" We also think they won't lie or that we can tell if they try to! ;)

We also think a lot of you don't know much about fashion. Sorry, it's true. Think of it this way. If I am buying a table saw I will walk past the girl at the hardware store to ask a man what I need. It's just the way of things.

Thanks for your sharing the advice, Karen. For me, I admit not knowing everything (or even just alot) about fashion.

When it comes to eyewear & sunwear, I'll also admit not knowing everything...

But - I *do* know alot...an awful lot, about eyewear and how to create an eyewear wardrobe. Definitely more than most laypeople, whatever their gender.

Barry...signing off!

[Snitgirl]

Dear Barry,

cocoisland58 took the words right out of my mouth.

Question: Do you wear a tie all the time?

[Nettie]

It helps if you say things like "that pair compliments your skin tone" or "this color really makes your eyes even bluer". Kinda corny sounding, but it shows that you see the little details that most men are accused of totally missing. Just don't say "you look like a naughty schoolteacher" like I was told once. That may get you slapped.

Truthfully, I have had a lot of guys turn to one of my male employees and ask their opinion. They may just need to hear from another 'dude' that the glasses are cool to ensure my female self doesn't put them in something that looks feminine. So I think it works both ways.:cheers:

[FullCircle]

Oh for goodness sake. Our husbands we expect this behavior out of but not a sales clerk. We can smell dishonesty a mile a way and truely a guy that admits he's clueless is rather charming. From him I might buy something.

Yes, but you're looking at things from the eyes of a married woman. Seriously, I've heard comments from women (not strictly in the optical shopping world) that they won't always believe salesmen for the reasons I've stated. They comments tended to surprise me as my initial thought was they think a bit too much of themselves if they think every guy wants them.

[FullCircle]

Just don't say "you look like a naughty schoolteacher" like I was told once. That may get you slapped

OMG! LOL! *sigh* sometimes it's sad when the mouth spits out things that should've remained in the head.

[Barry Santini]

Dear Barry,

cocoisland58 took the words right out of my mouth.

Question: Do you wear a tie all the time?

NO! The only timw I wear a tie is for my formal presentations. I'm business casual otherwise.
Q: What's wrong with ties?

Luv ya, Snitgirl!
B

[cocoisland58]

Yes, but you're looking at things from the eyes of a married woman. Seriously, I've heard comments from women (not strictly in the optical shopping world) that they won't always believe salesmen for the reasons I've stated. They comments tended to surprise me as my initial thought was they think a bit too much of themselves if they think every guy wants them.

Actually no. I am not married but I was once. And I have never talked to any woman who thinks the way you think they think. Maybe it's the locale?

[Diane]

Being able to sell fashion brands and designer brands means that you need to be able to talk both. Know the differences. Know the history of the brand as well as the image. Whatever the image is for your particular dispensary, dress accordingly. Then make sure that the brands/designs that you carry in your dispensary matches the practice identity.

Next, if you want a woman to come to you for advice, or a man who really wants to look good, you have to understand and talk face shape and color key. Rather than just say that a particular frame looks good of someone, you have to be able to say why it looks good. It flatters their (best feature) and diminishes their (don't ever say) "bad" feature.

With just a couple of well phrased statements about color, face shape and fashion, people will look to you as the expert, whether you're in your office or even just shopping for your spouse in a department.

Understanding face shape is a science just like optics is a science. Understanding color key is a science just like optics is a science. This has to be a passion for you to be successful. You can learn it. It's not just "fluff and stuff". I can talk ophthalmic optics on minute, anatomy and physiology the next and color, face shape and fashionable eyewear the next. I can be an expert on all of them. You can, too, if you want to.

Remember the rules...there are 7 basic face shapes....2 curvilinear, and 5 angular. To emphasize something, repeat it. To de-emphasize something go opposite. If someone has a round/full face, use angular features on a frame to de-emphasize the roundness. As a person ages, gravity naturally pulls down, so use shapes that pull up.

Straight lines give power.
Diagonal lines are flattering.
Round adds fullness.

For color, every person is either warm based (yellow/gold) or cool based (blue). Never say a person is has yellow tones, but rather say golden tones, it sounds better. You may identify blue based by a true pink tone rather than peachy tone. Don't use the wrist, it has blood vessels and looks blue. Look behind the ears or actually look at the true color in their eyes. I still believe in color draping or using tinted lenses to identify color key.

Communication skills include being able to use words that make a difference.

• OK
– Nice
– Very nice
– Light colored frame
– Light colored lens
– Heavy gauge metal frame
• Better
– Attractive, becoming, flattering
– Gorgeous, striking, stunning
– Soft toned
– Delicate tint
– Sturdy frame

OK, you want people to ask you, Barry. You are very intelligent, so I know that you can learn this.;)

This is one of the things I teach. This post is only part of it.

Diane

[Judy Canty]

And for pete's sake, will everyone forget how to say "That doesn't look bad."

[Andrew Weiss]

And for pete's sake, will everyone forget how to say "That doesn't look bad."

Actually, I do say that -- but only when there's something else that I know looks a lot better. ;)

Several of the women's postings in this thread I've found enlightening. Thank you very much. :cheers:

I take a different approach. Not that I don't know about fashion and what looks good, I do. My wife likes to take me clothes shopping with her because (despite my lower tolerance for browsing) I am very honest in telling her what's flattering and what isn't (and why). But mine is only one perspective. I will frequently get some of the women in the office involved, especially after the patient has narrowed the field down to 2 to 4 choices. The staff enjoys it because they get to play with the frames, and the patient enjoys it because she's getting several different opinions, some women's, some a man's. When the dispensary's busy, I'll even encourage the patients to help each other by giving their opinions, and just about every time there's an electricity in the air as these folks start communicating with one another and start to have fun too.

I also know there are some patients who will really only listen to their best friend, or their husband, or, for some mature women, their daughters. I used to take that personally; now I don't. It's not a reflection on me or my ability to help people choose flattering and fashionable eyewear; it is a statement of that person's preferences and whose opinions they value the most. We've had other threads where we've discussed people's insecurities in choosing eyewear and their reliance on the opinions of others, and there was even a fair amount of blaming those folks for being insecure. Frankly, I don't think that approach gets us anywhere. The goal is for the patient to look good in eyeglasses -- no, more than good, fabulous. But my definition of fabulous and that person's spouse's definition could be quite different. Am I the "expert" on eyewear? Sure. Is it my job to interefere with the harmonious workings of a marriage or family? IMHO, No.

So, Barry, from one guy to another, I encourage you not to take this personally. Look at picking out eyeglass frames as fun, and include others in the fun.

[chip anderson]

Barry:
Since women appearently trust gays in matters of fashion have you..
Concidered..
Fancy earings
Ruffles for a collar and cuffs
Holdingl your wrists limply
A pony tail
Very tight thin pants
Perhaps keeping your voice a few octaves higher

Perhaps they would then take you seriously as appearently us hetros are not to be taken seriously on what women should look like.

Chip

Now don't you wish you hadn't opened this can of worms...

[Barry Santini]

Yes!

[Barry Santini]

Remember the rules...there are 7 basic face shapes....2 curvilinear, and 5 angular. To emphasize something, repeat it. To de-emphasize something go opposite. If someone has a round/full face, use angular features on a frame to de-emphasize the roundness. As a person ages, gravity naturally pulls down, so use shapes that pull up.

Diane

Thank you, Diane, for sharing your thoughts. Its interesting to note that most lay people *do not* have a clue about their facial shape, or color key (and this includes client's family and friends, as well as strangers and my peripheral office staff).

I personally have found shape-characterization and color key to be very limiting in developing an eyewear wardrobe. I use only the most basic elements from these paradigms. Most of us know that the truly *special* eyewear is "outside the rules", i.e., Palin, Ugly Betty, Drew Carey, etc.

Mainstream, safe choices are good. Rule breaking is even better. The rule-breaking pairs are my most enthusiastic clients. And you have to know the rules, in order to break them.

Other thoughts?

Barry

PS - Diane, you're a women, and aren't you lucky for it!

[HarryChiling]

Barry,

I don't know about your customers but I'd defintely pay to see you in ruffles and some nice fancy earings. I might even hoot and holler.:D