Online Sales and Licensed States

[Senorwes1]

I was just wondering how is it legal for online retailers to sell contact lenses and glasses without having a Licensed Optician to dispense them?

[LENNY]

Call Brad Scott!

[ziggy]

The very same question came up here in Ohio. They are not sold in this state and there for can not be regulated. The AG for Ohio would not spend the money to persue the issue.

[cash1]

i think dispencing is live time putting the glasses on someones face. sending the glasses in a box is not dispencing! or so said my state!

[Jacqui]

Where does the FDA, etc. come into play on all this?? There should be some help at the Federal level, even if it is an obscure regulation somewhere.

[hcjilson]

Ziggy,
They are sold in all states, the problem is that the various boards of registration have no control over anyone selling spectacles who is not within the state. Its sort of a catch 22. The various boards can request a disclaimer stating "not available in Ohio, MA etc" but they are rarely honored.

If the consumer is dumb enough to order online specacles, they deserve what they get.

[hcjilson]

i think dispencing is live time putting the glasses on someones face. sending the glasses in a box is not dispencing! or so said my state!

You are correct. Verifying, modifying, and adapting spectacles is dispensing them. Handing someone a pair of glasses is not.

[specti-wolf]

Hey hc, it is dispensing in NC when you just "hand them over".......

[hcjilson]

Hey hc, it is dispensing in NC when you just "hand them over".......

Not if it ever goes to court. Can one person hand another a pair of spectacles? Of course they can, it's done every day by thousands of people. ie." Honey, would you hand me my glasses?" That act is not dispensing spectacles, it may even be saving a marriage :):). Optician is defined by the law, and "dispensing" is also defined. The exact wording escapes me but the words verify,modify,and adapt are clear in my memory and if time allows I will find it. If the North Carolina statutes do not reflect this I would be very surprised.

Found it:
In MA the definition of dispensing is found here:

Dispensing Optician - means an individual who prepares and dispenses lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, contact lenses and/or appliances thereto to the intended wearer or user thereof pursuant to written contact lens or eyeglass prescriptions from a duly licensed physician or duly registered optometrist, and who, in accordance with such prescriptions, interprets, measures, adapts, fits and adjusts such lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, contact lenses, or appliances to the human eyes and/or face for the purpose of aiding or correcting visual or ocular anomalies of the human eyes.

If you are handing a pair of spectacles to someone you are doing none of the above, nor would the law say you were.

[hcjilson]

§ 90-235. Definition.
Within the meaning of the provisions of this Article, the term "dispensing optician"
defines one who prepares and dispenses lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses and/or
appurtenances thereto to the intended wearers thereof on written prescriptions from
physicians or optometrists duly licensed to practice their professions, and in accordance
with such prescriptions interprets, measures, adapts, fits and adjusts such lenses,
spectacles, eyeglasses and/or appurtenances thereto to the human face for the aid or
correction of visual or ocular anomalies of the human eye. The services and appliances
related to ophthalmic dispensing shall be dispensed, furnished or supplied to the intended
wearer or user thereof only upon prescription issued by a physician or an optometrist; but
duplications, replacements, reproductions or repetitions may be done without
prescription, in which event any such act shall be construed to be ophthalmic dispensing,
the same as if performed on the basis of a written prescription. (1951, c. 1089, s. 2.)

§ 90-236. What constitutes practicing as a dispensing optician.
Any one or combination of the following practices when done for pay or reward shall
constitute practicing as a dispensing optician: Interpreting prescriptions issued by
licensed physicians and/or optometrists; fitting glasses on the face; servicing glasses or
spectacles; measuring of patient's face, fitting frames, compounding and fabricating
lenses and frames, and any therapeutic device used or employed in the correction of
vision, and alignment of frames to the face of the wearer, provided, however, that the
provisions of this section shall not apply to students and apprentices. (1951, c. 1089, s. 3;
1977, c. 755, s. 1

[Ladyoptician]

Not if it ever goes to court. Can one person hand another a pair of spectacles? Of course they can, it's done every day by thousands of people. ie." Honey, would you hand me my glasses?" That act is not dispensing spectacles, it may even be saving a marriage :):). Optician is defined by the law, and "dispensing" is also defined. The exact wording escapes me but the words verify,modify,and adapt are clear in my memory and if time allows I will find it. If the North Carolina statutes do not reflect this I would be very surprised.

Found it:
In MA the definition of dispensing is found here:

Dispensing Optician - means an individual who prepares and dispenses lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, contact lenses and/or appliances thereto to the intended wearer or user thereof pursuant to written contact lens or eyeglass prescriptions from a duly licensed physician or duly registered optometrist, and who, in accordance with such prescriptions, interprets, measures, adapts, fits and adjusts such lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, contact lenses, or appliances to the human eyes and/or face for the purpose of aiding or correcting visual or ocular anomalies of the human eyes.

If you are handing a pair of spectacles to someone you are doing none of the above, nor would the law say you were.

I was told by our NC state board that if there were no doctor on site and no licensed optician, your customers were only allowed to browse. Not even a sale can be made, much less "hand a person rx glasses" to anyone. As a matter of fact, I was told that a sign should be hung saying "browsing only".

[rbaker]

I was told by our NC state board that if there were no doctor on site and no licensed optician, your customers were only allowed to browse. Not even a sale can be made, much less "hand a person rx glasses" to anyone. As a matter of fact, I was told that a sign should be hung saying "browsing only".

I wonder if someone can substantiated that statement by citing North Carolina Statutes as hjilson did.

[hcjilson]

You can hand someone a pair of glasses as long as you do not do anything to adapt, modify, or anything else under the definition of dispensing. I am off today but will contact the NC administrator tomorrow and see if she can shed some light on NC.If memory serves, she is an optiboarder and may well see this first. I'm off to the golf course!

PS. You said " As a matter of fact, I was told that a sign should be hung saying "browsing only"." I was wondering how that affected Plano sales, RayBans, Oakley. etc!

[Ladyoptician]

The Administrative Director emailed me that, but I deleted the email. She may have mentioned about planos but I'm thinking she said that was ok. It seems like a pretty gray area and I have heard many opticians interpret it many different ways, but Sue seemed pretty clear to me in the email that it was a really bad idea to let the rx go out the door at all. That is sad if the hand over thing is true, especially if that is the out that allows online glasses sales.....

[Johns]

It seems like a pretty gray area and I have heard many opticians interpret it many different ways, but Sue seemed pretty clear to me in the email that it was a really bad idea to let the rx go out the door at all. That is sad if the hand over thing is true, especially if that is the out that allows online glasses sales.....

It's a "really bad idea" to stuff Owens Corning Fiberglass down your pants also, but there's no law against it!:hammer:

This sounds like somebody that's doesn't know how to read the law, and therefore is just trying to cover themselves.

A really bad idea? That's weak!:finger:

[hcjilson]

Good point John! Is the postal carrier who delivers the package containing spectacles purchased online guilty of dispensing them??

[Ladyoptician]

It's a "really bad idea" to stuff Owens Corning Fiberglass down your pants also, but there's no law against it!:hammer:

This sounds like somebody that's doesn't know how to read the law, and therefore is just trying to cover themselves.

A really bad idea? That's weak!:finger:

Well, it may not be the exact wording she used, but in a nutshell she was saying, if caught doing it, there would be a fine or temporary revocation of license or both. Something to that affect.

[Johns]

Well, it may not be the exact wording she used, but in a nutshell she was saying, if caught doing it, there would be a fine or temporary revocation of license or both. Something to that affect.

Again, unless they are citing a statute, which would clearly define the offense as well as the fine, it sounds like they're just making it jup as they go along - to cover their rears.

[hcjilson]

The offense would be "unlicensed practice". The defense would be there was no violation because the individual did not do any of the things defined in the statute.My guess is that the NC Attorney General's office would never let this get to prosecution. The board in MA spent an inordinantly long time on the definition of dispensing. I clearly remember the first morning it came up and thinking to myself "this won't take long" we were still working on it months later! It was, and remains, that important.

I think it is important for all reading this to be reminded that the various boards of registration are working on behalf of, and are the voice of, the consumer. They do not exist to protect the profession, they exist to establish standards of practice and to see that all practitioners adhere to those standards. They do not exist to limit competition they exist to provide accountablity in order that the consuming public be treated fairly and are protected against substandard or unethical practices. The board upon which I sit is unpaid as are most>(I think!) We do this because we respect the profession and the values we were taught coming up. I think all of us on Optiboard do, it's a large part of why we're here. The various board members I have met through the years all feel the same way and want to pass the profession on to those coming behind us in as good a shape as we found it, or a notch better.

[wmcdonald]

It is against the statues to dispense a pair of spectaces unless supervised by a licensed Optician or OD/MD. If none of these individuals are on the premises, it is illegal in this state. An office cannot operate legally without a license on premises. Once the Rx has been verified as correct by the professional "dispensing" it, THEN anyone can do it. The point is not that someone did not bend the temples correctly, or provide the correct tint, it has to do with certainty that the Rx dispensed (handed out, passed from one to another, or whatever you wish to call it) is the appropriate Rx. Harry, you asked earlier if the mailman were in violation, and no he is not, unless he "dispenses" the Rx directly to a patient for it's intended use. He or she delivers the Rx to the professional who is to dispense it to the final wearer upon verification that the Rx is correct. Multiple board rules, which have the full effect of law, reinforce the boards position. I am surprised that it is not similar in other states. As to planos, they are not Rx items and are not affected. Ms. Kornegay knows the statutes very well and is not making things up as she goes along. I do not know the exact link, but it is a very large file, but as one active in writing those post-sunset revisions of the law and rules and regs, I can tell you it has stood the test of time and challenges from many corporate providers.

[hcjilson]

Dear Friend Warren,
You said;"It is against the statues to dispense a pair of spectacles unless supervised by a licensed Optician or OD/MD." and we are agreed. I maintain that handing someone a pair of spectacles is not dispensing them according to the definition of the stautue quoted above. I in no way meant to imply that Ms Kornegay was making anything up and since you introduced us, I think you know I hold her in high regard. :). To return to my analogy, if the postman hands a package to the intended wearer, is he then "dispensing"?I think you will agree that he is not...any more than the clerk who hands a repair job back to its owner, while the optician is out to lunch. I also agree that the rules and regs of the board have the full effect of law....right to to point they act against it or are used to unfairly restrain trade. Believe it or not, but the almost 5 years spent in the revision of our rules and regs centered around what could and could not be legally done. You would be surprised at how gunshy board counsel's can be when it comes to R&regs.

[Johns]

Once the Rx has been verified as correct by the professional "dispensing" it, THEN anyone can do it. The point is not that someone did not bend the temples correctly, or provide the correct tint, it has to do with certainty that the Rx dispensed (handed out, passed from one to another, or whatever you wish to call it) is the appropriate Rx.

So by this definition, dispensing is nothing more than verifying the Rx.

Does NC have no website to their state board? We use ours quite often for clarification of the law, as they are clearly stated on the site.

[obxeyeguy]

Does NC have no website to their state board? We use ours quite often for clarification of the law, as they are clearly stated on the site.

We's a little slow down here with all dat computer stuff. :D


seriously, you have to go to NC gov, and go to a section I can't recall. Most likly where Harry got the section he posted. I just use the book I bought, with all the laws.

[hcjilson]

So by this definition, dispensing is nothing more than verifying the Rx.

Does NC have no website to their state board? We use ours quite often for clarification of the law, as they are clearly stated on the site.

I got to it right away by googling it.

PS follow this link it will get you a pdf of the NC law

http://ftp.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_90/Article_17.pdf.

[hcjilson]

North Carolina licenses the establishments as well as the Opticians. In MA the only action the board can take is against the licensee. I still wonder how that applies to Sears, Costco, BJ's or any other department store.Well my time is short and I won't have to be concerned with it into my dotage! :)