Ontario Opticians Banned from Refractometry

**kws6000** · 07-25-2008, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by renee1111

So you think we would be hard pressed to convince the minister. I can think of few good reasons just off the top of my head.

-Accessibility- With the impending doom of a recession, many people are living either on a strict budget or simply living paycheck to paycheck. The fees ODs impose for getting an eye exam are forever climbing and becoming too expensive for those on a budget. I’ll give you an example: In ‘04 the government decided to finally deregulate OD’s fees. So all the OD’s (in my area anyway) made it seem as though the government had imposed these new fee’s onto their patients. When in reality OD’s had pushed for this for a long time. Before deregulation they were all getting paid $39 CND per eye exam. Shortly after, they up’d their fee’s to $45, two months later the fees went up to $59, by years end all were charging $70. In 2008 the average cost is $110. Are these fees going to keep climbing every year or are they ever going to level out?

- Redo rates – If a specific OD’s office has a particularly high redo-rate, it would be great to be able to double check the RX. Which by the way, wouldn’t pose a risk to the public because the patient already had a full eye exam prior to the refraction.

-Most, not all, the Techs who work in Ophthalmologist’s offices, have hardly any training at all, yet these individuals do perform refractions that are dispensed to the patient. Same would go for the Ophthalmic Technicians, some take the course although most aren’t required. I have met techs that took the course and didn’t know what AR was, or how to perform proper adjustments. I would think that basic optical knowledge must be a requirement to work in an OD’s office, but from personal experience I’ve realized that it is not. Seems to me that OD’s have a double standard. On one hand it’s okay for them to have a tech working under them, yet it isn’t okay to have a fully qualified and educated individual do there adjustments or pre-tests.

So in conclusion I think that if refractions are done by Opticians following the College guidelines, there is absolutely no danger to the patient receiving the refraction. The arguments are always “missed pathology or patient not getting a proper eye exam”, but if the standards of practice were strictly followed, patients would have to see an OD every year anyway. (Which by the way = more money for you!)

Finally someone said it!!! I’m glad that you can admit that, because most OD’s dance around the subject. Every time someone mentions refracting courses, an OD chimes in to ask “Who exactly is teaching the course…better be an OD” This is the one of the main reasons Opticians should be legally able to refract, because OD’s are infringing on our profession!

OF course I wouldnt expect you to see any problems with opticians refracting.It is to your advantage to do so.

If the customer has to see an OD yearly anyway ,based on your stated stds of practice ,and the industry standard is for an rx to be valid for 1 year ,where is the need for opticians to perform independent refractions ?

How is this of benefit to anyone other than the optician ?

You know as well as I,that refracting opticians would see anybody in their store in order to get the sale,regardless of when the customer has had a proper exam.They would also take advantage of the publics confusion about the three O's to downplay that a full exam is not being done.

I see this all the time around here with refracting opticians wearing their white lab coats,pretending to be a health care professional.Some of them even let their customers mistakenly refer to them as Dr.

Who is going to police them? Certainly not the opticians themselves.It is to their advantage for this farce to continue.

If the local ODs become too pricey,their business will dry up leading to fee reductions (basically free market conditions asserting itself).However , in the interim, fees will likely increase to what the market will bear (and so they should from a business perspective)

The exam fee is a small percentage of the total costs when eyewear is involved.If total customer cost is causing problems in your business,you might want to look at lowering your fees if this is chasing customers away.

Why would I dance around the subject of not supporting refracting by opticians ? I dont know of any OD colleagues in favour of it.

Why would we want to help the competition break into our profession and devalue some of the services we provide?

The push by opticians to do independent refractions is nothing more than a self serving move to increase eyeglass and CL sales.You and I both know that, regardless of what else you may post.

**tmorse** · 07-25-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by kws6000

I see this all the time around here with refracting opticians wearing their white lab coats,pretending to be a health care professional.Some of them even let their customers mistakenly refer to them as Dr.

Who is going to police them? Certainly not the opticians themselves.It is to their advantage for this farce to continue.

The exam fee is a small percentage of the total costs when eyewear is involved..

The push by opticians to do independent refractions is nothing more than a self serving move to increase eyeglass and CL sales.You and I both know that, regardless of what else you may post.

HA HA!!
Just as you also let your customers mistakenly believe that you are somehow a medical doctor.
Sorry to dissapointy but Opticians are already classed as Health Professionals throughout Canada... see Alberta's Health Professions Act.
Exam fee is a small percentage of your income, that is why you offer opticianry's optical goods for sale (like a MERCHANT)... your own 'self-serving move'. :p

**eyemanflying** · 07-25-2008, 08:35 PM

I am so sick and tired of the ignorance and arrogance of most OD's and their negative, selfish, egotistical attitudes toward opticians. For the record, last time I checked...OD's were not God, and when I wrote my $735 cheque to the COO, opticians were considered health care professionals despite what the non-informed KWS says.

Call it what you will, the fact of the matter is one day opticians will refract or perform simple eye exams. We do not want to diagnose diseases and conditions, that's the OD's expertise and responsibility.

Please read this very clearly as it will happen one day in the near future.......Opticians will refract, period.

Now, to all you OD's out there in disbelief, grab a tissue, take a deep breath and gently wipe away those tears. It's really going to be ok and you will still be able to charge the ridiculous dispensing fees and also accept the vendor rebates written to your personal account and not claimed to Revenue Canada. There will be lots left over for the Beamer, cottage and boat.

The time is coming to share a small piece of that pie, and it most definitely serves the public's best interest when a customer simply needs to have their Rx updated and nothing else.

Now, can't we all just get along for once???

Excalibur · 07-25-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by eyemanflying

I am so sick and tired of the ignorance and arrogance of most OD's and their negative, selfish, egotistical attitudes toward opticians. For the record, last time I checked...OD's were not God, and when I wrote my $735 cheque to the COO, opticians were considered health care professionals despite what the non-informed KWS says.

Call it what you will, the fact of the matter is one day opticians will refract or perform simple eye exams. We do not want to diagnose diseases and conditions, that's the OD's expertise and responsibility.

Please read this very clearly as it will happen one day in the near future.......Opticians will refract, period.

Now, to all you OD's out there in disbelief, grab a tissue, take a deep breath and gently wipe away those tears. It's really going to be ok and you will still be able to charge the ridiculous dispensing fees and also accept the vendor rebates written to your personal account and not claimed to Revenue Canada. There will be lots left over for the Beamer, cottage and boat.

The time is coming to share a small piece of that pie, and it most definitely serves the public's best interest when a customer simply needs to have their Rx updated and nothing else.

Now, can't we all just get along for once???

A post full of insults... concluded by "can't we all just get along for once?"

NICE!!! LOL.

**eyemanflying** · 07-25-2008, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Excalibur

A post full of insults... concluded by "can't we all just get along for once?"

NICE!!! LOL.

Thank you Excalibur for the nice compliment and kind words. I feel so special. I suggest you take my advice on the last line for a change.

Can we have a group hug?

**renee1111** · 07-26-2008, 01:03 PM

[quote=kws6000;253927]

OF course I wouldnt expect you to see any problems with opticians refracting.It is to your advantage to do so.

It is of great advantage to the patient also. Whether you like to admit it or not.

If the customer has to see an OD yearly anyway ,based on your stated stds of practice ,and the industry standard is for an rx to be valid for 1 year ,where is the need for opticians to perform independent refractions ?

See last post

How is this of benefit to anyone other than the optician ?

See last post

You know as well as I,that refracting opticians would see anybody in their store in order to get the sale,regardless of when the customer has had a proper exam.They would also take advantage of the publics confusion about the three O's to downplay that a full exam is not being done.

No one is pretending to be anything, other than OD's prentending to be doctors.

I see this all the time around here with refracting opticians wearing their white lab coats, pretending to be a health care professional.Some of them even let their customers mistakenly refer to them as Dr.

Wow you really have no idea about the three O's do you. Do some reseach and you'll quickly find out that we ARE health care professionals!

Who is going to police them? Certainly not the opticians themselves.It is to their advantage for this farce to continue.

We are a self regulated profession, the College of Opticians is policing our actions.

The exam fee is a small percentage of the total costs when eyewear is involved.If total customer cost is causing problems in your business,you might want to look at lowering your fees if this is chasing customers away.

I'm sure, no positive I can beat your price!

Why would I dance around the subject of not supporting refracting by opticians ? I dont know of any OD colleagues in favour of it.

Why would we want to help the competition break into our profession and devalue some of the services we provide?

Exactly! Why would we want OD's teaching our refraction courses?

The push by opticians to do independent refractions is nothing more than a self serving move to increase eyeglass and CL sales.You and I both know that, regardless of what else you may post.

I totally disagree, this move is to offer better customer service.

**renee1111** · 07-26-2008, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by eyemanflying

I am so sick and tired of the ignorance and arrogance of most OD's and their negative, selfish, egotistical attitudes toward opticians. For the record, last time I checked...OD's were not God, and when I wrote my $735 cheque to the COO, opticians were considered health care professionals despite what the non-informed KWS says.

Call it what you will, the fact of the matter is one day opticians will refract or perform simple eye exams. We do not want to diagnose diseases and conditions, that's the OD's expertise and responsibility.

Please read this very clearly as it will happen one day in the near future.......Opticians will refract, period.

Now, to all you OD's out there in disbelief, grab a tissue, take a deep breath and gently wipe away those tears. It's really going to be ok and you will still be able to charge the ridiculous dispensing fees and also accept the vendor rebates written to your personal account and not claimed to Revenue Canada. There will be lots left over for the Beamer, cottage and boat.

The time is coming to share a small piece of that pie, and it most definitely serves the public's best interest when a customer simply needs to have their Rx updated and nothing else.

Now, can't we all just get along for once???

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

**optical maven** · 07-29-2008, 11:15 AM

I find the comments about the cost of an eye exam and "exorbitant dispensing fees" to always be ridiculous. It seems that the game plan for opticians to refract is to pay $40,000 - $50,000 for an Eyelogic system (you can correct me if it is more or less) and provide the service for free. Well, nobody stays in business for long doing things for free. I recently had a woman ask for an expensive frame and lens combination which totalled about $850, including my outrageous, hidden dispensing fee. She left to shop around and came back a week later and ordered the glasses. She had been quoted $1200 for the same glasses at 2 different retail stores. Of course thankfully there was no "hidden dispensing fee". So I guess free eye exams won't really be all that free.

**eyemanflying** · 07-29-2008, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by optical maven

I find the comments about the cost of an eye exam and "exorbitant dispensing fees" to always be ridiculous. It seems that the game plan for opticians to refract is to pay $40,000 - $50,000 for an Eyelogic system (you can correct me if it is more or less) and provide the service for free. Well, nobody stays in business for long doing things for free. I recently had a woman ask for an expensive frame and lens combination which totalled about $850, including my outrageous, hidden dispensing fee. She left to shop around and came back a week later and ordered the glasses. She had been quoted $1200 for the same glasses at 2 different retail stores. Of course thankfully there was no "hidden dispensing fee". So I guess free eye exams won't really be all that free.

This is not par for the course. Most but not all OD's do charge ridiculous dispensing fees. The patients/customers are the ones that always come in to the optician and complain about the OD. They always ask the questions....what is a dispensing fee and why do the optometrists charge it? And, what's the difference between an optician and optometrist? If you polled the general public glasses wearer, 9 out of 10 people couldn't answer each of these questions correctly and view the two O's as equivalent. I'm just relaying what I hear. Believe me, as an optician, I think it's an excellent idea for OD's to charge the high dispensing fees as it makes our sale that much easier to close.
:)

**optical maven** · 08-05-2008, 08:09 AM

What are some examples of ridiculous OD dispensing fees?

**AdmiralKnight** · 08-06-2008, 11:19 AM

Perhaps they mean rediculously low dispensing fees? I don't know about other OD offices, but here, to charge a measly $148 dispensing fee on a progressive lens... ANY PAL, including a 1.67 freeform with transitions and super-hydrophobic AR. Now, again, I only have the office I work in as a comparason, but their prices are very competative, including that "ridiculous" fee.

**eyemanflying** · 08-07-2008, 09:09 AM

You guys have to be kidding me. To measure a PD, seg height, bend two temples and splay two nose pads, all of which combined should take ten minutes. A $148.00 fee is a riduculous rip off to a consumer. But, please don't stop on my behalf as it's great for me when comparing to customers why I don't charge a fee.

**AdmiralKnight** · 08-07-2008, 10:31 AM

Woah woah woah. The "fitting fee" isn't just that. It's the profit margin. I'm not gona go into specifics about markups etc, because this is the open forum, but we both know you make atleast $148 on a pair of PALs with a new frame. Especially when we're talking about high end frames (Versace, Escada, etc etc etc) and higher end PALs.

**kws6000** · 08-07-2008, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by eyemanflying

You guys have to be kidding me. To measure a PD, seg height, bend two temples and splay two nose pads, all of which combined should take ten minutes. A $148.00 fee is a riduculous rip off to a consumer. But, please don't stop on my behalf as it's great for me when comparing to customers why I don't charge a fee.

So you are selling everything at cost?

**optical maven** · 08-07-2008, 01:03 PM

So you buy a frame for $100 and sell it for $240, but thankfully you don't charge a fee. I buy the same frame for $100 and add a "fee" for $80, and so sell the same frame for $180. My goodness, you're right!! I am ripping off the public!! What planet are you living on??

**AdmiralKnight** · 08-07-2008, 01:30 PM

Erm, this is why I wanted to avoid talking about markups. There's a fourm for that, maven, so be carefull what you post.

**optical maven** · 08-07-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by AdmiralKnight

Erm, this is why I wanted to avoid talking about markups. There's a fourm for that, maven, so be carefull what you post.

I agree. But don't make statements you know are not true. It does not matter how the final cost is derived, but what the final price to the customer happens to be.

**AdmiralKnight** · 08-07-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by optical maven

I agree. But don't make statements you know are not true. It does not matter how the final cost is derived, but what the final price to the customer happens to be.

I do hope that's not directed at me. I'm on your side here. :P

**eyemanflying** · 08-07-2008, 04:25 PM

No sir, it is not.
:cheers:

Originally Posted by AdmiralKnight

I do hope that's not directed at me. I'm on your side here. :P

**optical maven** · 08-07-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by AdmiralKnight

I do hope that's not directed at me. I'm on your side here. :P

No. It was to eyemenflying

**Truth** · 08-07-2008, 09:13 PM

Interesting articles that we can all learn from...

A Green County optometrist was indicted for Medicaid fraud.
http://www.wbko.com/home/headlines/17677799.html#

FORMER MONMOUTH COUNTY OPTOMETRIST SENTENCED TO SEVEN YEARS IN STATE PRISON FOR INSURANCE FRAUD
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njins...e/amab0111.htm

Attorney General Conway Announces Optometrist Indictment
http://migration.kentucky.gov/Newsro...indictment.htm

Locum pleads guilty to defrauding multiple
http://www.opticianonline.net/Articl...g+multiple.htm

Black Could Lose His Optometry License
http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/1933507/

Dayton-area Optometrist Guilty of Insurance Fraud Totaling Nearly $11,500
http://www.ohioinsurance.gov/Newsroo...ReleaseID=5443

Ingersoll optometrist charged with fraud in filing claims
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/London...17/315700.html

Optometrist Arrested for Falsifying Claims to Medicaid
http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.ns...C?OpenDocument

Advertising Pitches for the 'See Clearly Method' Claim That Simple Exercises Can Improve Your Vision Naturally.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100845_pf.html

Mass. Optometrist Focused on Trip to House of Correction Following Fraud Scam
http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/ea...0/21/47093.htm

**eyemanflying** · 08-08-2008, 05:19 AM

Give me a break here, nice business ethics... It certainly does matter how the fees and pricing are derived.

Originally Posted by optical maven

I agree. But don't make statements you know are not true. It does not matter how the final cost is derived, but what the final price to the customer happens to be.

**AdmiralKnight** · 08-08-2008, 08:18 AM

I still don't understand your beef. If you do have so many people coming in complaining about rediculous dispensing fees, give us some examples. Is it just that they're confused about the system? Because that makes perfect sence. I have people look at me funny when I explain it to them as well. But what Maven is getting at is in the end, the price is fair. We may get to that price in a different way, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the ethics. We're showing the patient exactly where the cost is coming from.

**optical maven** · 08-08-2008, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by eyemanflying

Give me a break here, nice business ethics... It certainly does matter how the fees and pricing are derived.

So dispalying all fees charged to the customer is unethical. But hiding your markup so no one knows how the price is derived is the ethical way. How does that make sense? I guess 3 for 1 is the ethical way to go. I'm going to follow your lead eyemanflying.

**eyemanflying** · 08-08-2008, 08:57 AM

I see you've drank the kool-aid. There is no hiding a mark up. The selling price is what it is and there is no hidden cost or extra charge after the fact. We don't quote a price and then say by the way, there's a $130 dispensing fee on top of that price because I have to have my receptionist measure your PD and bend the temples. That would be considered unethical in my store and also classified as illegal dispensing. As I said in earlier posts, this is what the customers are telling me and asking me...so please keep up the good work in trying to mesmorize the patient with bs that only an OD can properly provide and fit your glasses and that you shouldn't trust your eyes to anyone else. What a crock.

Originally Posted by optical maven

So dispalying all fees charged to the customer is unethical. But hiding your markup so no one knows how the price is derived is the ethical way. How does that make sense? I guess 3 for 1 is the ethical way to go. I'm going to follow your lead eyemanflying.