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Thread: Ontario Opticians Banned from Refractometry

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by opti-refractonator View Post
    I cannot believe the astounding level of stupidity that is being shown by the responses and range of arguements. I really thought that this was a board with intelligence and free mind to help our professions. It seems pretty clear that the directive from the ministry simply reiterates the fact that opticians cannot refract for the purpose of prescribing an rx. This doesn't mean we cannot learn to refract. This does not mean that we cannot work with other O's. Yes, refracting is in the public domain, just like diagnosing that your little brother has a cold, but you cannot write an rx for him. A similar thread about not being able to look at the soft/exterior tissue of the eye in contact lens fittings a few days earlier, was just as mind numbing. Please, my people, let your common sense be the judge. Just because the wording of something may be translated into a thousand different meanings, using common sense and experience will ultimately lead you in the right path.
    Ah yeah......?
    What did I say in my initial post?

    Here it is again.... "A letter from Dr. J. Tepper (Asst Deputy Health Minister) was sent July 15/2008 to the President of Jeff Fernandes, President of the College of Opticians of Ontario stating that the Ministry of Health of Ontario does not permit opticians to independently refract."

  2. #27
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    hey excal, not directly refering to you but the people who read only a part of a text and assume they know the rest.

  3. #28
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    Ah yeah......?
    What did I say in my initial post?

    Here it is again.... "A letter from Dr. J. Tepper (Asst Deputy Health Minister) was sent July 15/2008 to the President of Jeff Fernandes, President of the College of Opticians of Ontario stating that the Ministry of Health of Ontario does not permit opticians to independently refract."

    Would you mind printing out the letter in it's entirety , please . What I downloaded from your link was only part of a letter , not an entire letter , and it does not say what you are interpreting.

  4. #29
    Excalibur
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Would you mind printing out the letter in it's entirety , please . What I downloaded from your link was only part of a letter , not an entire letter , and it does not say what you are interpreting.
    The entire letter was posted earlier on this thread as a Word file (ie. doc file)
    Please look for that post.

  5. #30
    bilateral peripheral scotoma LandLord's Avatar
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    get out of the glasses business and get into real estate
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    Do you think that if the College of Opticians ignores the Minister of Health's letter, they Ministry will abolish the College executive? Is that technically possible?
    Certainly possible. Here in BC the provincial government removed the entire Board of the College of Acupuncturists and replace them by a government-appointed trustee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    Ah yeah......?
    What did I say in my initial post?

    Here it is again.... "A letter from Dr. J. Tepper (Asst Deputy Health Minister) was sent July 15/2008 to the President of Jeff Fernandes, President of the College of Opticians of Ontario stating that the Ministry of Health of Ontario does not permit opticians to independently refract."
    The problem is in the rest of your post;

    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    I understand that the College of Opticians has embarked on a refracting course for its members. Perhaps they should consider returning any tuition immediately.
    I'm not sure how you meant that to sound, but from that quote and other posts in this thread, you come off as implying that the mere fact that Opticians are learning how to refract is somehow going against the Ministry. That the fact the College is offering the course, perhaps the Minister might disband it.

    I've read the letter, and no where in it does it say the College can not offer this program. It sounds more of a cautionary letter. A reminder about the rules reguarding what Opticians can and can't do with this training.

  8. #33
    OptiBoard Novice Truth's Avatar
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    A question for y'all.

    Any of you read the original letter referenced in the new letter? Might make for an interesting conversation.

  9. #34
    Excalibur
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralKnight View Post
    The problem is in the rest of your post;



    I'm not sure how you meant that to sound, but from that quote and other posts in this thread, you come off as implying that the mere fact that Opticians are learning how to refract is somehow going against the Ministry. That the fact the College is offering the course, perhaps the Minister might disband it.

    I've read the letter, and no where in it does it say the College can not offer this program. It sounds more of a cautionary letter. A reminder about the rules reguarding what Opticians can and can't do with this training.
    It would be interesting to hear how many people taking this course are doing so with the intent of independently prescribing rather than learning with the intent of working with an OD or OMD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    It would be interesting to hear how many people taking this course are doing so with the intent of independently prescribing rather than learning with the intent of working with an OD or OMD.
    I'm certain everyone is...and why shouldn't they?

  11. #36
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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    [
    Ecalibur:

    Have you ever seen how a cataract is actually removed ? How do they actually get it out ? And how do they actually get the implant back inside there ? Just curious .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    It would be interesting to hear how many people taking this course are doing so with the intent of independently prescribing rather than learning with the intent of working with an OD or OMD.


    I should hope that every Optician in Ontario would be well aware that independent prescribing is illegal. What would make you think we’re being mislead? It’s clearly outlined in this explanatory guide from the College of Opticians website.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  13. #38
    bilateral peripheral scotoma LandLord's Avatar
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    Double standard

    Yet another optometrist trying to beat down opticianry to prevent self-betterment.

    WHY DID OPTOMETRISTS STUDY TPA'S BEFORE THEY WERE ALLOWED TO PRESCRIBE THEM? FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON!!!!!!
    Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
    It would be interesting to hear how many people taking this course are doing so with the intent of independently prescribing rather than learning with the intent of working with an OD or OMD.
    Intent is a completely different beast that actually going out and doing it. We're trying to further our field, and these folk are trying to get a head start on it. Does this mean they think "hey, I'm gonna start breaking the law and make some quick cash!"? There might be people in the course who think this way, and if they break the laws, they SHOULD be punished.

    That being said, there is absolutely no law, and nor should there be, outlawing studying and learning ANYTHING. What's next? Oh! We don't want the average Joe making bombs, so lets make it so only specific people can learn physics. Different scenario, but basicly the same.

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    I don't think anybody questions any persons desire to educate themselves. If the task is being done by an automated machine, such as an Eyelogic or other automated device, this has been done in an OD or OMD office for 25 years or longer. There is no specific qualification necessary. The problem here is that the College of Opticians announced with great enthusiasm that performing refracting was now legal for opticians. In fact, opticians were reintorduced to the rest of the world and allowed to work under the supervision of an OMD or OD.

  16. #41
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical maven View Post
    I don't think anybody questions any persons desire to educate themselves. If the task is being done by an automated machine, such as an Eyelogic or other automated device, this has been done in an OD or OMD office for 25 years or longer. There is no specific qualification necessary. The problem here is that the College of Opticians announced with great enthusiasm that performing refracting was now legal for opticians. In fact, opticians were reintorduced to the rest of the world and allowed to work under the supervision of an OMD or OD.
    I think you need to read the College of Opticians web site and their package to opticians regarding refraction . You seem to have some details mixed up .

    Sometimes people just can't see the trees because the forest is in the way .

    Read the entire web site and package dealing with refraction .

    And by the way , it is my understanding that refraction is in the public domain , which means this ....optometry does not own it and has no right to think that they control refraction .

    Why not limit your discussion to the real matter that is underlying your concerns ... " prescribing " .

    We will patiently await your apologies until you have had sufficient time to read it and think about what you just read .

    Please quote the section of law that says optometry owns & controls refraction .
    Last edited by Refractingoptician.com; 07-24-2008 at 03:47 PM.

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    In any posting I have written I have always said that refracting is within the public domain, as is many other measurements such as blood pressure, eye pressure or body pressure. Since refracting is within the public domain it is even more reason to question the intent of the COO to regulate opticians about refracting at the current time. From the COO web site:

    "IMPORTANT:

    Please be reminded that any optician wishing to refract must first
    apply to, and be approved by
    the COO. Further, opticians granted refracting status by the COO are reminded that full
    compliance with the Standard of Practice: Refraction is required.
    If you have any questions or comments please contact Shannon Falconer "

    I actually agree with your comments. But how can the COO regulate what they are not allowed to do? How can they regulate what is in the public domain? And yes I have read the information on the COO web site. I have never said or intimated that optometry controls anything. I have said nothing which requires an apology.


  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical maven View Post
    I have said nothing which requires an apology.
    I would agree fully. Having different opinions is no reason to ask for an apology.

    Lets look at that quote from the COO at a different angle. I see that as talking about the course itself. If an optician wants to refract, they have to apply to the refract course. And the second bit is saying "Hey, even though you're planning on taking this course, according to the standard of practice, you're still not allowed to actually refract." It's another cautionary line. To me, it seems like the college is making sure their aplicants know that they're not able to refract. That by taking this course, it's purely to either further your knowledge in the event that the laws change.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical maven View Post
    In any posting I have written I have always said that refracting is within the public domain, as is many other measurements such as blood pressure, eye pressure or body pressure. Since refracting is within the public domain it is even more reason to question the intent of the COO to regulate opticians about refracting at the current time. From the COO web site:

    "IMPORTANT:

    Please be reminded that any optician wishing to refract must first
    apply to, and be approved by

    the COO. Further, opticians granted refracting status by the COO are reminded that full
    compliance with the Standard of Practice: Refraction is required.


    If you have any questions or comments please contact Shannon Falconer "

    I actually agree with your comments. But how can the COO regulate what they are not allowed to do? How can they regulate what is in the public domain? And yes I have read the information on the COO web site. I have never said or intimated that optometry controls anything. I have said nothing which requires an apology.

    You do not get it. If you did then you would not keep repeating the same mistake .

    "But how can the COO regulate what they are not allowed to do?"

    On one hand you agree that refraction is in the public domain and yet on the other hand you are trying to say that opticians are not allowed and COO is not allowed .

    Think about what you are trying to say precisely .

    I believe COO just wants to register members so they know who has had the training and education dealing with refraction . How and why does this upset you ?

    Are you not saying the word "refraction" but meaning the word "prescribing" ? Are you confusing yourself ?

    I can't see where anyone could have any issue with the College over refraction and their professional approach to knowing which members have achieved what degree of education and training.

  20. #45
    bilateral peripheral scotoma LandLord's Avatar
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    The fight is not about refraction. Neither side really cares about refracting. It's the prescribing that counts. I can sit in my basement spinning lenses on a phoropter like a mad scientist. Yeah, let's leave it at that.
    Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I think you need to read the College of Opticians web site and their package to opticians regarding refraction . You seem to have some details mixed up .

    Sometimes people just can't see the trees because the forest is in the way .

    Read the entire web site and package dealing with refraction .

    And by the way , it is my understanding that refraction is in the public domain , which means this ....optometry does not own it and has no right to think that they control refraction .

    Why not limit your discussion to the real matter that is underlying your concerns ... " prescribing " .

    We will patiently await your apologies until you have had sufficient time to read it and think about what you just read .

    Please quote the section of law that says optometry owns & controls refraction .

    What is with this juvenile need for apologies where none are warranted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LandLord View Post
    Yet another optometrist trying to beat down opticianry to prevent self-betterment.

    WHY DID OPTOMETRISTS STUDY TPA'S BEFORE THEY WERE ALLOWED TO PRESCRIBE THEM? FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON!!!!!!
    I dont care if opticians take refracting courses as long as they dont try to utilize this by attempting to perform independent refractions.

    The chances of opticians being able to independently refract legally in Ontario is somewhere between zero and none.

    There is no shortage of qualified ecp currently in Ontario.

    Opticians would be very hard pressed to convince the minister of health why

    independent refractions by opticians are necessary or beneficial to the public at large,other than to opticians who just want to sell more

    optical goods.

    Why would you think any optometrist would help opticians infringe on our profession?
    Last edited by kws6000; 07-24-2008 at 11:48 PM.

  23. #48
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    Oh if only I had a dollar for every time an optometrist told me the chances of opticians performing refraction were zero, nay even a dime.
    They would take me aside, then explain, sometimes in very slow, deliberate voice how we could never convince anyone how this could be good, and opticians, bless their hearts, could never understand that only doctors could refract. Heck why would we want to anyway?
    with 4 lost court cases, The BC Eye Physicians and Surgeons telling the Ministry of Health that opticians should seek an independant refraction, and a Minister of Health publicly stating that opticians had proven their ability to safely perform refractions, the "could never happen" mantra so loved by optometry changed.
    Chances are zero to none? Myopia can be a way of thinking as well as a refractive error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kws6000 View Post
    I dont care if opticians take refracting courses as long as they dont try to utilize this by attempting to perform independent refractions.

    The chances of opticians being able to independently refract legally in Ontario is somewhere between zero and none.

    There is no shortage of qualified ecp currently in Ontario.

    Opticians would be very hard pressed to convince the minister of health why

    independent refractions by opticians are necessary or beneficial to the public at large,other than to opticians who just want to sell more

    optical goods.
    So you think we would be hard pressed to convince the minister. I can think of few good reasons just off the top of my head.

    -Accessibility- With the impending doom of a recession, many people are living either on a strict budget or simply living paycheck to paycheck. The fees ODs impose for getting an eye exam are forever climbing and becoming too expensive for those on a budget. I’ll give you an example: In ‘04 the government decided to finally deregulate OD’s fees. So all the OD’s (in my area anyway) made it seem as though the government had imposed these new fee’s onto their patients. When in reality OD’s had pushed for this for a long time. Before deregulation they were all getting paid $39 CND per eye exam. Shortly after, they up’d their fee’s to $45, two months later the fees went up to $59, by years end all were charging $70. In 2008 the average cost is $110. Are these fees going to keep climbing every year or are they ever going to level out?

    - Redo rates – If a specific OD’s office has a particularly high redo-rate, it would be great to be able to double check the RX. Which by the way, wouldn’t pose a risk to the public because the patient already had a full eye exam prior to the refraction.

    -Most, not all, the Techs who work in Ophthalmologist’s offices, have hardly any training at all, yet these individuals do perform refractions that are dispensed to the patient. Same would go for the Ophthalmic Technicians, some take the course although most aren’t required. I have met techs that took the course and didn’t know what AR was, or how to perform proper adjustments. I would think that basic optical knowledge must be a requirement to work in an OD’s office, but from personal experience I’ve realized that it is not. Seems to me that OD’s have a double standard. On one hand it’s okay for them to have a tech working under them, yet it isn’t okay to have a fully qualified and educated individual do there adjustments or pre-tests.

    So in conclusion I think that if refractions are done by Opticians following the College guidelines, there is absolutely no danger to the patient receiving the refraction. The arguments are always “missed pathology or patient not getting a proper eye exam”, but if the standards of practice were strictly followed, patients would have to see an OD every year anyway. (Which by the way = more money for you!)



    Why would you think any optometrist would help opticians infringe on our profession?
    Finally someone said it!!! I’m glad that you can admit that, because most OD’s dance around the subject. Every time someone mentions refracting courses, an OD chimes in to ask “Who exactly is teaching the course…better be an OD” This is the one of the main reasons Opticians should be legally able to refract, because OD’s are infringing on our profession!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Nelson View Post
    Oh if only I had a dollar for every time an optometrist told me the chances of opticians performing refraction were zero, nay even a dime.
    They would take me aside, then explain, sometimes in very slow, deliberate voice how we could never convince anyone how this could be good, and opticians, bless their hearts, could never understand that only doctors could refract. Heck why would we want to anyway?
    with 4 lost court cases, The BC Eye Physicians and Surgeons telling the Ministry of Health that opticians should seek an independant refraction, and a Minister of Health publicly stating that opticians had proven their ability to safely perform refractions, the "could never happen" mantra so loved by optometry changed.
    Chances are zero to none? Myopia can be a way of thinking as well as a refractive error.
    You are missing a very important point -This is taking place in Ontario-where everything is highly regulated by the govt.

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