Free-Form Phanatics...Help?

[rdcoach5]

Fezz, I have 3 identical Rx's in 3 identical frames because I wanted to take out the variables My Kodak Unique and Sola HDV are both great for dist with the HDV better for intermediate and both equal for near. But my GT2 pair blows away both free-forms for int and near. There is no comparison for me at work and I really can't stand wearing the Unique at work if I have my GT2 pair with me. I have been wearing the HDV at work primarily bec they are transitions and I want to be able to show my pts how light they are inside or be able to walk out and show that they instantly turn dark. That being said, I consider the Definity to have an edge on any other progressive that we normally use. Every Zeiss ID we used was a Wow but very expensive. Just switched a hyperope from Seiko Super Proceed 2 to the Free-form version and got a " don't see any difference" response.

[RT]

instead of traditional molding on the Creation, they use a digital process

That still means that the front surface is create via a mold. So the mold is created via Free-Form manufacturing techniques. The lenses, on the other hand, are conventionally produced using a molded front and toric back surfaces.

[snotbagel]

firstly, free form progressives all use one basic design advantage over front molded lenses..the add curve is on the bqck, closer to the eye, and by its nature causes less distortion. How any particular company implements that is an issue.

I've tried some wow factor lenses, and I can say that only Definity comes close to free form performance.

Vx 360 is very good, pentax prestige about the same, and indo lifemade expert in there too.

Whats the main difference to you?
VX costs ****, Pentax ****, and Indo starts at **** for the same technology.

Really, I compared the field of view , (distance on all three is like an SV lens) and comfort sitting in front of my LCD screen (to test intermediate) and found them equal..

Definity is not too shabby either...

PS, Digital Eye Labs does wonders with the Shamir autograph attitude for wrap frames...taking advantage of free form to decenter the fitting points so that you can fit just about anyone into those huge sunglass frames without worrying about the cutout chart!

[snotbagel]

ps, I really like the GT2 also, but the Indo comes in at about the same price uncoated.

[Fezz]

Hey Snotbagel,

Watch the wholesale pricing! This is a public forum!

Optiboard is a public discussion forum. We are composed of eyecare professionals and the consuming public. In this regard, it is inappropriate to publish wholesale prices, or other propriatary information which might compromise the relationship between professionals and consumers. If you have questions of this nature, or information to provide, please use the Private Message system to ask the question or to diseminate the information. Posts containing pricing information deemed inappropriate, will be removed.

[Refractingoptician.com]

..

[Uncle Fester]

With a name like "SnotBagel" on a public forum , how would you assume a level of Professionalism ?

HEY!

Fezz---How about the ultra-vue 28. Man what a lens for channel widths.:cheers: (Let us not discuss unwanted "astigmatism" on either side of the corridor.);)



Oh wait. They did discontinue that one.

[snotbagel]

get a life...

here's a post about prices!!!!

digital surfacing is going to turn the old tradition molded lens guys on their ears!
A blank from VX or sola, etc, costs XXX dollars, but digital labs use a semifinished SV blank that costs only x dollars!
In the extreme, they also use a hunk of plastic and surface both sides digitally.

It costs a chunk o change to buy the digital lab, but not so much more than starting from scratch, and if you consider that most rx's are sv or progressive, then you have 80% of the market covered with only a couple of grand of stock ,as opposed to many g's for molded progressives!

By the way, someone wanted a freeform optimized for computer and near, should try pentax perfas Premier (fit 2mm lower than you usually would).
it also has a terrific AR, and priced reasonably $$ not $$$.

Is price an issue? you bet, when we are no longer tied to VX, SOLa, etc, and can get better service AND product! Freeforms are my regular fit now, at the same price I was charging for GT2 and Physio!

[hcjilson]

With a name like "SnotBagel" on a public forum , how would you assume a level of Professionalism ?

I don't really think its fair to judge someone because of their nomme de plume, although why someone would choose a name that's a turn off is beyond me. It would be a good idea to cut some slack for the newer member and get on with the subject at hand.Lets just assume the expertise is up to the level of his posts and go on from there.tx hj

[snotbagel]

Yah,I see that, by the standards of the posters here. However, I've been licensed since 1979 in NY, and actually started dispensing in '77. you can check, if you want.

http://www.nysed.gov/coms/op001/opsc...&plicno=004449


This board is great..old F-s like me can share , and hopefully learn too.
The screen name is from my youth, you know how mean some kids are, so I just took it and made it my own..besides, I NEVER conflict with other screen names!!!
Scott

[beagleman]

:hammer:Fezz, what are you trying to do? If you haven't WOWed your patient by now, why keep hitting your head against the wall? Sounds like the son trying to please his father in some futile Digital Quest.

Patients who are "sharpeners" notice very small changes in their vision...anything from the RX to the lens design. Your patient sounds like a "non-sharpener", and a rather insensitive one at that! He simply cannot notice any differences. You trying to get a reaction out of somebody who isn't noticing anything!

At the major optometry school I work at, manufacturers give us a steady diet of lens coupons. I happen to be a sharpener. One of my collegues is just the opposite. She can wear anything and doesn't notice any difference. I notice a huge difference between older designs and the newer free form designs. I figure, why not recommend the latest designs to everybody so that I am encompassing all patient types from sharpeners to non-sharpeners. The important thing is, you don't need to go into much detail about the technology with the patient. They don't need all of our opti-babble. I just try to get my patient into what I think is the best product given their needs and RX.

[Fezz]

Thanks for the reply BeagleMan!

I see your point!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[MarcE]

Scott,
Are you using the Definity or the Indo Lifemade? From my experience, Definity is much more expensive that GT2. I can't sell them for the same price. Are you saying that the Indo Lifemade is a WOW lens at a price similiar to the GT2??
Thanks for your input.:)

[snotbagel]

Right now, GT2 is cheaper by a very few than lifemade, and both compare favorably in optics to definity. Lifemade has two iterations: inicia and expert, referring to soft vs hard design. the expert has a vx360 field of view, if sharpness is your wow factor. However, comfort can be a wow factor, and the inicia as well as definity and Pentax perfas prime have that in spades.

I wear both, and am not too particular about it. I DO have a 92 inch projection HD theater, and can say DEFINITIVLY that VX360 , Indo Expert, and Pentax Prestige all have a perfect distance field of view. i give the comfort and computer edge to Indo, however..

PS, please pay attention to all the basics of aspheric fitting, such as panto, faceform, and vertex. These make a huge difference too.
Shamir autograph, to name one, can adjust the lens design to compensate for odd fitting frames, if you measure and supply these to the lab. these are kludges, however, and there's no substitute for the basics.

The example here is the "keyhole" effect. The closer you are to the keyhole, the wider your field of view through it. This is also why back surface curves work better than front..

[Refractingoptician.com]

,,

[snotbagel]

sneeze on yours if you don't on mine..

[Fezz]

Mr. Retentive picked up his new pair yesterday. I ended up using the Hoya ID LIfestyle in Trivex.

No WOW.

But, he did seem to appreciate the clarity and he was able to find the zones quickly. He wasn't turning cartwheels, high-fiving me, and screaming praises, but he seemed pleased.

A success.......I guess!

:D:cheers::D

[bob_f_aboc]

Mr. Retentive picked up his new pair yesterday. I ended up using the Hoya ID LIfestyle in Trivex.

No WOW.

But, he did seem to appreciate the clarity and he was able to find the zones quickly. He wasn't turning cartwheels, high-fiving me, and screaming praises, but he seemed pleased.

A success.......I guess!

:D:cheers::D

Some days anything less than an @$$ chewing by a patient is a success!

[DocInChina]

There is so much written here about particular designs, much of what is written is information gleaned from a black box. Much of what has been posted deals with contour maps rather than optical clarity and optimization. Having a lens with wide reading areas or wide intermediate areas but with few data points and few optimized points cannot give the clarity of a lens with many data points that have been optimized across many fields of gaze.

Free Form designs can actually be made in an infinite of combinations and not just the designs being promoted by manufacturers. Designs can be optimized based upon prescription as well as visual requirement for each patient. The higher the visual requirement or visual need, the free form designs can be designed to fit that need. Designs can have Front Surface Progressive with aspheric or spheric back surface or Back Surface Progressive with aspheric or spheric front surfaces. The designs can be optimized across a wide range of data points. The more data points being optimized and the more aspheric curves being generated, the better the optics, the more time is required to produce, the higher the cost will be for the end product.

Manufacturers weigh the costs to produce and the time needed to produce against the selling price. Anything else that is used to describe free form designs is just fluff and marketing.

[eyeguy99]

I am in belief that we are being brainwashed in that these new progressives are the cats meow. The only 2 designs that patients have really noticed a difference in my office is the NIKON SEE_MAX and ESSILOR PHYSIO 360. I've had better luck with an older long corridor than some of these new designs. I believe that many have issues with the flatter base curves of today also. Cheers

[Robert Martellaro]

Mr. Retentive picked up his new pair yesterday. I ended up using the Hoya ID LIfestyle in Trivex.

No WOW.

But, he did seem to appreciate the clarity and he was able to find the zones quickly. He wasn't turning cartwheels, high-fiving me, and screaming praises, but he seemed pleased.

A success.......I guess!

:D:cheers::D

The clarity was primarily due to the higher Abbe material. Good/smooth zone aquisition is PAL design. He probably would not see any difference between this lens and the standard Summit CD in Trivex.

I wear almost the same Rx as your client- let me know if there are additional issues and I'll loan you my shoes.

I remember the 7027 (Team or Elasta?). Tough as nails (stainless with a monoblock spring hinge?) if I remember correctly.

[sumit082]

I am an optometrist from India and into practice since 3 years and have been dispensing PAL'S mostly shamir & of essilor family and never had any problem with physio or panamic , but recently hoya came into market and they launched there hoyalux id lifestyle and zeiss launched there carat -hd both say these lenses are freeform and much better then physio 360 .Now i am in big dilemma wether i should switch my patients to these products or continue with varilux family is there any benefit of dispensing freeform lenses?

[DocInChina]

Welcome to Optiboard!

I suggest you do a forum search regarding free form lenses. There is already a lot of information that has been covered previously. If you still have questions I know everyone will do their best to answer you. Once you read through the previous posts you will have a better idea on how to choose your candidate patients for free form designs.

Eric

[sumit082]

Welcome to Optiboard!

I suggest you do a forum search regarding free form lenses. There is already a lot of information that has been covered previously. If you still have questions I know everyone will do their best to answer you. Once you read through the previous posts you will have a better idea on how to choose your candidate patients for free form designs.

Eric

thanks eric

[beagleman]

I am an optometrist from India .... Now i am in big dilemma wether i should switch my patients to these products or continue with varilux family is there any benefit of dispensing freeform lenses?

I'm a teaching optician at one of our major optometry schools. There are varying schools of thought amongst our staff of opticians regarding your dilemma. Some feel that if Varilux is working, keep the patient in it. I am of the school that if there is a better lens on the market, our patients deserve the best. I have switched dozens of Varilux Comfort wearers to the Kodak Unique and they all love it right from the dispense. I'm sure similar results with the Hoya digital lens. If you drove a 1995 Toyota Camry to the dealer to buy a new car, would you expect to buy another 1995 Camry? Wouldn't your prefer a 2009 car with all its improvements? The Physio 360, as far as I can tell, is a renamed Panamic, still front side molded technology, and digital surfacing back side. None of our staff like it, so we don't dispense it. I tried it, it looks clear, but I get a headache. Patients who tried it have similar comments.