This is certainly true. However, it must also be said they've got a solid stake even so. This is in fact a very good thing - along with all the other lenses thay others have excellent luck with!Originally Posted by ezrich
This is certainly true. However, it must also be said they've got a solid stake even so. This is in fact a very good thing - along with all the other lenses thay others have excellent luck with!
Does Colt's run it's Bayer test at room temp? At both hot and cold extreems for the human animal? Does the abrasive resistance change with stress from edging, mounting in frame? Gasoline fumes in the air?
There are just too many things that might affect the results for one to say that product has been tested in all enviornmental situations. True they are not testing Thalidomide here, but.....
Chip
I dunno what their environmental variables are they use. Could be specified by the lens manufacturer, could be some industry standard. All the other data would be nice to see, but I believe that the added cost of real world studies - not to mention the actual time involved to do so properly (meaning OUR standards!;)) would push the cost of testing ANY optical product so high as to not be viable in any circumstance. Coming from a field directly related to aerospace and knowing how extensive the testing is there on just about everything - it was still a simple piece of foam that brought down Columbia. There just isn't a realistic means to test EVERY eventuality. I think we all know and I would even go so far as to say so do most consumers/patients, that no material is infallible or indestructible.
I for one love to watch lenses shatter after a nice short bath in LN2...along with other things that break nicely when super-cooled. :shiner: Even the best A/R lenses aren't a match for THAT! (nor for direct solid rocket motor exhaust at less than a foot distant.) LOL Yeah...we've had some fun! Tesla coils also do some neat tricks with plasma as well. And while I haven't quite mastered writing my name with 200,000 volts of electrical goodness...I have made some neat designs! :bbg:
Chip,
The tests such as Bayer and the many others are industry apporved standards, when someone gets on here and quote a pamphlet that says crizal is tougher than most premium AR's what happens is some engineers sit in a room with a buch of test results that they pass to someone that can speak to them and that guy takes and filters the various tests and results and puts them in not too technical jargon and then the marketing department takes that and comes up with "Crizal is tougher than most premium AR's". Things sometimes get lost in translation so I am the type that likes to hear the horse neah if I can.
Lifetime properties is the test performed to determine the ability of a hydro coat to withstand repeated cloth rubs.
AR Craze/Heal is to determine the ability to withstand temperature
Boiling salt water is to determine it's abiility to withstand crazing
Cross hatch and cross hatch boiling water is used to determine adhesion
cycle humidity oven cross hatch determines again adhesion
cycle humidity QUV accelerated weathering and crosshatch designed to replicate enviornmental conditions
Ease of cleaning there is a test called that for guess what
enviornmental durability is designed to replicate the enviornmental impact on AR coatings.
I'm not saying that any of these test will help anyone figure out what coating is the best, but it's sure helped the manufacturers determine the best course in improvements to their coatings. Can you imagine calling the doctors office and asking for an Rx only to hear the focal length of the proper lens would be about an arm and a half long. :hammer: We need standards to gauge things by and their are test set in place which could help compare the various ARC's on the market and most major manufacturer's ahve already run these test and have the data. They have no problem interpretting the data fro you, but no one wants to give you or me the raw data and when I ask the response I get is "you wouldn't know how to compare it", "it's more complicated that just the numbers", a bunch of double talk. So we are left with anecdotal evidence and For-Life is left chooseing the best way he can and I am sure it was done by trial and error, choose a coating and see how many come back. As an opticians I would liek to see more data to take a more educated approach to choseing coatings, but manufacturers have decided to limit me to trial and error. Not fair, so is life.
Here is what I am gathering from all of this:
I think it is very important to believe in the products that you recommend. It is through trial and error, use of various brands, use of various materials, and wisdom gained from others that you can develop a knowledge of, a trust and a belief in a product. We all have different settings that we work. Some settings are much more open to trial of various product than others. There are some offices that put more emphasis on the warranty aspect, some that put more emphasis on the cost, etc. I think you have to develop YOUR trust in the product that you dispense.
But...do not get stagnate and blinded by that trust. Be open to new ideas and new options and continue to improve your knowledge.
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
Well said Sir Fezz:cheers:
All the best to you too..................
Brian........Thanks for your post. Having been an active member of the OptiBoard for the last six years I have made a few statements that sounded a bit rougher than they should have been, however they are not made in bad intent.
Over the many years I have been in this business, I have made the full circle. Having been in the retail, the frame wholesale, the optical lab and last, but not least, my business developing and making products for lens surface treatments, During those past times I did accumulate a fair amount of experience over 360 degrees.
I believe I was the first one on this Board to pop up under my own name and identity and have never regretted of doing so.
When I read post's that made in a one way manner, actively stating that nobody else can even close to some corporations product without giving the little guy a chance, it triggers my instict to stand up for the others.
All the best to you too. :cheers:
Crizal Avancé is the one I use most often and I am very happy with it.
But I haven't tried all of them out there, so to be honest I haven't tested all of them.
At LC I used the RF with Scotchguard which is terrible. They call it the Featherwates Complete with Scotchguard. It crazed all the time.
I use Clarion XS and Crizal Alize. My main problem is heat control. They tend to spiderweb or crack.
SpazMonkey,
Welcome to Optiboard!
:cheers::cheers::cheers:
I like Crizal Avance with Sctochguard. Komodo Extreme isn't bad either
I still have my Scotchguard from my previous employer. Mine did not craze, but it is harder to keep clean than anything else I have ever used, ironic for a product that's supposed to be easier to clean. At least pizza sauce does not stick to it LOL.
I have not tried Crizal Advance with Scotchguard yet, but I imagine it is better.
Last edited by jjm_1965; 01-09-2009 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Edited for content
-Jim M.
CT Licensed Optician, ABOC, NCLEC, FNAO, HFOAA
Super Hi Vision from Hoya gets my vote. It's what I wear and what we use for the majority of our patients.
:cheers:
~ Erin
ABOC
but it is harder to keep clean than anything else I have ever used
All slick coats do wear off after a while. They are so thin and wear off from cleaning. Never mind the name or brand of it they are all made from the same basic material.
However they can easily be renewed.
Our lab uses Claris HD for our Shamir, Seiko and Indo Free Form jobs. So far no complaints. Ask your Shamir rep what they think of it.
Toledo optical offers an excellent AR called Acclaro. I don't see any difference from the definity jobs that require Crizal. But, you can't beat Toledo's warranty. 2 no fault replacements in a 2 year period. The customer's lens got scratched when his dog ate his glasses and just call for a replacement. If you leave your glasses on your dash in 90 degree weather and the lenses craze, just call and Toledo sends out brand new lenses. Very simple and convenient.
Hey guys,
I know that this thread is a little old, but it just seemed like the right place to post... One of my techs is taking classes and has a question that she cannot find an answer to. I guess this one goes up to the old-timers in here, what kind of a/r would you put on glass? I know that there are all kinds of glass lenses known by name to all of you that used to dispense them (certain photochromics by their intensity levels) but I have never heard of a particular A/R coating that was meant for glass... Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff
AR coatings are glass. They adhere to and last much longer on glass than they do on plastic (with proper care) as they are not heat sensitive as those applied to plastic. Plastic and glass expand and contract at different rates, glass and glass expand pretty much at the same rate.
It is true without proper care these may scratch more easily but are not likely to just deteriorate over time, especially short (three years) periods of time.
Chip:cheers:
never heard of a particular A/R coating that was meant for glass...
Leitz Germany made their LEICA camera lenses with AR coatings in the mid 1930's. These camera lenses where the best in the world at that time and there were no plastic lenses.
Opticians in Europe started to sell AR coated glass lenses in the mid to late 1950s. Also sunglass lenses with a layer of metal oxides which gave them a uniform color, also on glass.
While in North America the plastic lens came into fashion in the mid 1970s, the first AR coated on plastic popped up in the early 1980s and were pretty bad because they were applied directly on the plastic lens surface which is not compatible to AR coating material which is SIO2 (silicone dioxide) = glass.
Glass coatings will not properly adhere to plastic. It needs a coating in between, that is compatible to adhere on one side with the plastic and on the other side with the SIO2.
On glass lenses you haven't to fully compatible products and do not need the in between coating, which many call a hard coat, which it is not, it is media for better adherence.
The only difference in AR coatings are the multi layers where each one makes his own recipe and says it is the best of all. But basically they are all made in the same principle.
Furthermore AR coatings are used and made in huge quantities outside the optical field and for many other reasons and other prices.
I have put AR on glass lenses. I used Zeiss coats.
Hi all,old timer coating? we used magnesium flouride, silicon dioxide was used as a base layer in an effort to keep the coating on the lenses, for films that would'nt stay on the lens(remember blue tinted glass) blue lenses came about(glass old days)because one of the tech's on the machine forgot to put yellow(sillicon dioxide i belive) on a green color batch i wish i had a dollar for every (blue)lens we recoated see for more info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireflective_coating
Which premium, multi-coat AR coatings would your recommend for photochromic (PGX, PBX) glass lenses and why? Same question for clear glass lenses? Does anyone recommend going without AR on photochromic glass?
Glass and AR work better than plastic and AR, since it will not craze like plastic. Thus, most people stick with the cheap coatings when dealing with glass.
How are you going to temper the glass lens after putting AR on it? Answer - you're not going to be able to temper the lenses. But if you edge them, temper them, THEN send off for AR, that might work IF:
the lab actually agrees to do it
or
there can be problems putting edged lenses into the AR holder rings so a lot of labs won't do it.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Last edited by Ecliptic; 06-30-2008 at 03:45 PM.
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