Yes, but if the "Hummer" out performed the "Escalade" and costs the same....which one would you want your family in? :cheers: (Hoya vs. Crizal brands)Originally Posted by For-Life
Yes, but if the "Hummer" out performed the "Escalade" and costs the same....which one would you want your family in? :cheers: (Hoya vs. Crizal brands)
and that is fine.
I paid the same for both and found Essilor's much easier to clean. Plus, I could get the D Alize, which had the much more attractive blue coating.
Then, you have to argue what lab you use and what products you want to put it on.
Just tried on my Weco edger the new Airwear AS Transitions 6 with the Crizal Avance in the RX -1.25-0.75 & -1.25-.50 and BOTH lenses CRAZED!!!
So then I tried the Transitions 6 plastic in the Crizal Avance and they BOTH CRAZED as well!!!
Quickly ordered a plastic Trans 6 in a UTMC and NO CRAZING!!!
Hate the coating but I needed them quick.
So far this is what I'm finding with stock lenses lately:
-Essilor's new coatings craze a lot
-Stock teflon's come pre-scratched
-Hoya's are TOUGH and my favourite by far but don't come in transitions
-Zeiss coatings didn't last
-Resolution lenses crack after a while and the AR doesn't last
Gonna try the pentax's and see what happens.
Also noticing a lot of YELLOWING hi-index lenses!!!
:angry:
Probably the reason why the Airwear Crizal lenses crazed the UTMC ones did not is that Airwear has a 1.0 centre and Crizal is a harder coating. With that said, how did you edge them?
With Airwear, you need to make sure you put a chuck on each side, low pressure, and the chuck size should match the clamp size.
Yeah I put a chuck behind the poly & plastic avance lenses.
I can't adjust my pressure on my older Weco edger but I just had the weco guy (Wayne) in here to check it and he said it the pressure was good.
The center thickness was the same for the Avance & UTMC plastic lenses.
Man, I need a new edger but the boss says we have to keep it for a while longer!!
Yeah, with it being an older edger it will happen.Yeah I put a chuck behind the poly & plastic avance lenses.
I can't adjust my pressure on my older Weco edger but I just had the weco guy (Wayne) in here to check it and he said it the pressure was good.
The center thickness was the same for the Avance & UTMC plastic lenses.
Man, I need a new edger but the boss says we have to keep it for a while longer!!
Why don't you switch to 1.6 Avance? Similar price, better optics, and will not craze or crack.
Yep I agree on the 1.6's!:cheers:
I switched over to the "Hoya 1.6 nulux hivision vp" from the "poly arc's" for ALL my semi-rimless work! It's a nice change.
But for Transition Lenses with an ARC... stock plastic UTMC or Rx Club's surfaced Poly AS Transitions with the TNT EZC arc. Surprisingly those don't craze and they do pretty good. They just take longer.
Or maybe I'll just try to put on 5 layers of the blocking pads on each side of the lens :hammer:
This structure is polydimethylsiloxane also known as silicone. Premium easy clean topcoats are not derived from this chemistry rather they are fluorinated silanes that are either dipcoated or vapor deposited. Hydrolysis-condensation of the silanes creates a polysiloxane network that is bound to the outer layer of the AR stack, SiO2. This network creates a covalently bound coating that is durable to abrasion. The pendent fluorinated segments offer easy clean properties through the hydrophobic and oleophobic nature inherent to fluorochemicals. Easy clean and slipperiness of the coating can vary based on the type of fluorochemical functionality used and the process in which they are applied.
An excellent descrition of polisiloxane which are the main ingredient of the subject on discussion.
I have Mag flouride on the shelf and still have the right formulas for applying it as an AR coating. We havent used it in years. If you want lenses done in it, just for fun, I would be willing to take a whack at it.
The normal coating materials these days are ZrO2 and SiO2 in layers with an adhesion layer on the surface of the lens. Followed by a hydro-phobic layer on the top surface, usually applied in high vacuum as are the rest of the layers. The hydro layer can consist of thicknesses of Poly Siloxane. There are a few other tricks there but for the most part thats what makes an AR coating. Residual colors can be manipulated to further the brand.
Crazing, cracking etc are normally factors of how well the layers well put down. Trick of the trade again!!
Crazing, cracking etc are .....................
..............and don't forget extreme hot and cold temperatures will affect the expansion coefficient between plastic and glass materials and produce also these effects.
Is there a place that list most of the lens/coating combos with
brayer ratings ?
Thanks
B
All the confusion on ARC is because of them Braying about their ratings.
It's the Bayer ratings that most hold significant. But I am not convinced that any of the claims for ARC relate to the real world.
Chip
I think the Bayer rating does not mean much. Teflon, Avance, Carat Advantage, Ice, Stainless, Super Hi, ect are all very scratch resistant. I go for other variables, like visual appeal and optics, durability (ability to resist crazing), and easy of clean.
Crizal Avancé with Scotch Guard.
There are several reasons this is our go-to lens product. First and foremost, we do not "SELL A/R COATED lenses". We DESIGN "A/R LENSES". This is a small and simple point, but one that is becoming more and more important to differentiate between. The newest A/R lenses are using bonding processes that bear little resemblance to methods used in years past. It has become an integrated part of the lens as a WHOLE, and I strongly feel with these lenses you are doing your patients a dis-service not to make that distinction.
Some of the reasons we are currently happy with the Avancé product:
Clarity: The clearest, most color-free product we have seen on the market yet. Better even than the 'invisible' A/R from Resolution (which I also own personally.)
Durability/Cleanability: The scratch resistance coupled with stain, oil, water and static resistance are second to none that we have found so far. Simply the easiest lens to clean...and KEEP clean.
Adhesion: Absolutely NO problems with ANY bond, [excessive] scratch or color issues since the products release in mid January 2008. After 2 years of simulated cleanings, (20,000 was the number I believe), the Avancé product measured at something like 97% of it's original durability/cleanability and scratch resistance. I'm not aware of it's Bayer rating, but regardless of what it's initial numbers are, the long term test data indicates it holds up far better than any other A/R lens currently available. It does seem this may well be the case a little over a year from now and beyond (the 2 year mark since it's release)
Cost: Avancé is actually cheaper than two other 'premium level' A/R lenses available from our current lab. (As well as three other labs we've used as well.) It isn't the least expensive option, but for our patients, it is the best. Offering anything less is not the way we've chosen to conduct our practice.
Warranty: Essilor stands behind their lens - for the "life of the prescription", as few or as many times as needed. Period. We have never needed to use this warranty for anything other than a few minor scratches (maybe five times total...two of which were elderly patients that had fallen while wearing their glasses), but never for any failure of the A/R lens itself.
It is not going to be the A/R lens of choice for every dispensary or practice, but it works exceedingly well for us. Our patients love their Avancé lenses and are beginning to ask for Avancé by name on return visits. We have not had this level of success with any previous A/R product.
they have already been heavily infested by brainwash publicity
After having read this long post singing the song of glory for "Crizal Avancé with Scotch Guard." I am wondering if you work for the company that makes it or if you are on special spiff program..
If customers are asking for a special expensive product,in today's economy they have already been heavily infested by brainwash publicity.
Nope, it is really that good
Chris, recently I was waiting for Essilor to release its new Single Vision lens. They took forever. So I went to one of its competitors. It is mainstream, but I will not mention which one. The lenses are always dirty and do not clean up as well as Avance. It is very noticeable.
For years, we were using other mainstream brands of AR. I never used Crizal, because I just never liked the hype associated with it. Then for some reason we started to use it. In the past, I thought our AR returns for crazing were normal. Then I switched to Crizal and realized that people were not coming back with crazed lenses.
These are facts. They are not that of someone who is brainwashed or someone who works for Essilor. Heck, I do not even own shares in the company.
No. I work for a small private practice in Salt Lake City. We are no different from the thousands of other small private practices in the USA or Canada. We have to earn our patients trust and loyalty the same as everybody else.
I do NOT work for ANY lens manufacturer or supplier.
I never have.
You, however, do.
Please get your facts straight before launching into public forum attacks on someones credibility before you have any facts.
The original poster asked what we feel is the best A/R lens available. I responded appropriately to that inquiry. I backed up my response with the reasons the product we choose to use has worked so well for us. I will respectfully ask you to refrain from future guesses as to my - or my patients - credibility in product selection or level of satisfaction with said products in the manner you appear to do so often.
Thank You.
Should there be a discussion.......................
In a public forum, points are made by participants and if everybody else would agree there would be no discussion whatsover. So I do not agree with your point and said so.
The reason is that the opinion stated is one sided without giving other brand names nor coating companies a chance to be good, mediocre or even bad.
Obviously you do not design AR coated lenses lenses and did state a reason about bonding processes being so different than ever before. Actually these are not the bonding processes, but rather the materials used, and they are available on the market, you just have to find them.
Most participants make statements on a forum under a pseudonym and nobody knows who they are or what they are, and then should not feel insulted when somebody disagrees.
I have been involved in AR coating systems just about full time (25 years) to know some of the real facts. I could go into more details.
And as the last point I could never have attacked anybodies credibility as I have made a comment to an unknown pseudonym that made a statement that triggered an opinion.
There are many AR coating lab technicians, owners and other interested parties on Optiboard that could come with their own points of reason why also their products are good or as good as the one promoted in the particular post or there will be no discussion.
I have to agree with For-Life and Uillean. Avance is really really good. I have used all sorts of AR. I've used all the Zeiss ones, Hoya, Teflon, and a number of others.
I have had no problems with Zeiss, Hoya, or Teflon, or Crizal coatings crazing. The better Zeiss, Hoya, Teflon, and Crizal coatings are also scratch resistant.
But even Crizal Alize, Hoya Hi Vision, and Zeiss Carat Advantage quickly lose their easy cleanability. Within a few months they get harder to clean and get dirty faster.
Avance is so easy to clean and really stays clean. It is better new then all of the other ones I have tried and so far it seems to really hold up. The warranty is outstanding!
I am upset that I can't easily sell it to my VSP patients. I figured out the cost difference between Alize and Avance for a patient this week and getting the Avance would have cost her about $90.00 more. :(
There have been many good points made in this thread. I pulled this comment out to pose a question:
I wonder how much extra the Avance costs to produce than the Alize.
I'm guessing $.03, maybe $.04 more.
Cost has nothing to do with it. Essilor uses the "FezzJohns multiplyer" to figure what they sell it for!
:cheers::cheers:
:cheers::cheers:
Then why aren't they paying any props to us? Shouldn't we be getting a royalty fee, commission, free lenses, or something? A official "Atta Boy" would be nice!
(Please Essilor, do not unleash your hordes of thristy lawyers on us! The above is meant in jest. It was Optical 24/7 who started it!)
I have no idea. I can't really discuss prices and costs in this thread. But Essilor did do a lot of research to develop Avance, that certainly cost some money.
Have you tried it yourself?
Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat much ? ...................
I did not know it was thaaaaaat much. :hammer:
Fezz..............Shame..........Shame........on you for talking cost prices :finger:
You should be convicted to spend a minimum of 3 hours in the next Tavern that sells only soft drinks.
NOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:drop::cheers::cheers:
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