A horrible injustice

[drk]

OK, we spent a long time designing and selecting a high power progressive polarized sunglass. Vision plan. Ordered. Verified. Partially dispensed...

Patient was unhappy with vision (she never is). Ultimately wants a refund, to which I am happy to agree.

Now the injustice: all the professional services rendered will be refunded along with the return of materials. Good, earnest, professional services.

How in the world is it fair to have opticians' remuneration for their expertise tied to a mere product that a person can return on a whim?

How the heck did it get this way!? I'm appalled.

How do opticians cope with this? You are essentially saying that your professional services are 100% guaranteed or your money back!

Compare to optometric services: you pay for your examination, and you never get a refund. Now, maybe we have to repeat part of the exam if not satisfied with outcome, so we're not perfect. We have an implied guarantee that our exams lead to satisfied vision, somehow.

Compare to opthalmological services: you pay for your examination, and you pay for any additional care if needed. No implied guarantee of success. That's the way it ought to be.

[obxeyeguy]

Doc, the answer to the question "how the heck did it get this way" is very simple. You even covered the correct answer in the second paragraph

Ultimately wants a refund, to which I am happy to agree.

Sounds like this patient is not a complainer, so what was the problem? Bad lens?? Bad RX?;) Bad frame choice?? Or as some say, a little buyers remorse looking for a "re-style". My fault and I'll cut a check, anything else and we try to work something out.

We all have to pick and choose our battles. I have refunded exactly 1 in the past 8 years, and it was well worth doing so. A few others have been refunded only the advice to seek all future care somewhere else, no $$$.

Someone on here has a signature, not sure who, that reads: money carefully refunded. Once I have it, I don't like parting with it.

[HarryChiling]

Someone on here has a signature, not sure who, that reads: money carefully refunded. Once I have it, I don't like parting with it.

You can't even pry pennies from my hands and if you manage to get it you've got copper wire.

Now the injustice: all the professional services rendered will be refunded along with the return of materials. Good, earnest, professional services.

Now your in OH so yes it is an injustice as the state recognizes opticians as professionals, but in other parts of this country it's not the case. I am always amazed at the naive people from states that are licensed that come to an unlicensed state and purchase eyewear. They are often disappointed and don't realize how good they have it back home. It's retail vs. professional, retail won a long time ago and for some odd reason no one not OD's not OMD's not retail wants this to change so you have chain stores such as LC putting in peoples minds this notion of it being OK to return prodcuts for your money back.

Somethings gotta change, I have customers that have been wearing glasses for 20+ years and they're upset cause they never knew they could return them, YOU CAN'T but the bell has been rung.

[RT]

Drk: The lab guys are wondering the same thing about their time and expertise as well. They make the lenses to the Rx, the Rx changes, and you expect that the lab will issue 100% credit.

[drk]

Oh like I'm a hypocrite, RT:finger:

I'm sayin' that:

• In many states, opticians are professionals and should keep their professional fees without implied guarantee of satisfaction
• Labs can do the same for all I care
• Patients have to be trained to respect optical professional services
• Lenscrafters is the devil for opening Pandora's Box of "no-fault return" on custom made devices.

Now go drink a beer:cheers:

[HarryChiling]

Oh like I'm a hypocrite, RT:finger:


I'm sayin' that:

• In many states, opticians are professionals and should keep their professional fees without implied guarantee of satisfaction
• Labs can do the same for all I care
• Patients have to be trained to respect optical professional services
• Lenscrafters is the devil for opening Pandora's Box of "no-fault return" on custom made devices.

Now go drink a beer:cheers:

That just about sums it up, I think that the professional fees thing would be different if their was nationla licensure, but it's hard to single handed fight the coporate powers that be and in the past, not a pot shot so please don't take it that way, optometry has hitched their trailers to the corporate bus which has made it even harder to fight.

I think the times and the way things are done have changed, for one thing now it would be to every doctors advantage to have national licensure as no dipensing board can tell any of the optometry or medical boards that they have to hire licensed opticians, but their are laws that prevent a business from hireing a doctor so they would have to hire a licensed professional while optometry does not, that creates an advanatge for the independent.

Second, I believe and have always believed that our professions are viewed as one and the same by the majority of the public, so even though you have an education that rivals that of medical doctors many a patient will view you as souped up opticians, which doesn't mean squat if they saw opticians flipping the old double whopper yesterday.

Third I forget where I read it the median income for opticians in licensed vs non-licensed states was not significantly different at all, the difference was the domain, non-licensed state have a wider variation in pay from the low end to the high end. As long as you don't get your opticiasn from the bottom of the barrel your probably better off with a licensed optician, so the myth about higher labor is a bit skewed.

Forth, licensed opticians tend to have more pride in their work. Guess that comes from having to work to belong to the field so you get career minded labor rather than the punch in punch out crowd of now.

[harry a saake]

one chain us vision has finally said no, printed on the reciept is a disclaimer saying this is a custom made product and can be returned for credit towards another pair, but no refunds because you dont like them. now if the other chains would follow suit, we could stop this nonsense

[For-Life]

DRK, you need to look deep inside at the accountant in you.

The cost of our personal services is free. Really, unless you can guarantee that you would be bringing in money or saving money during the time to serve that client, your time is not worth much.

The questions are: Did the time spent with her prevent you to make another sale? and Did you have to bring in someone extra to help run the office to help facilitate that sale?

If the answers are no, then you really did not lose anything.


To me, the travesty is in the materials.

[LandLord]

I hate to state the obvious here, but, you're looking at it from the inside out. You need to look at it from the outside in.

When the patient pays for an eye exam, they receive a service.
When the patient pays for glasses, they receive a product.

You can't return a service.
You can return a product.

[rbaker]

I hate to state the obvious here, but, you're looking at it from the inside out. You need to look at it from the outside in.

When the patient pays for an eye exam, they receive a service.
When the patient pays for glasses, they receive a product.

You can't return a service.
You can return a product.

Right on . . . Historically the "professional services" of the optician have been included in the cost of the goods with the exception of contact lenses. The optician and the lab always "ate" any errors or redo's. The introduction of big corporate eye care and vision plans has altered this situation.

[LENNY]

Can you get a refund on the medication that did not help?!

[LandLord]

Can you get a refund on the medication that did not help?!

After the medication is ingested, what can you return?

[Now I See]

one chain us vision has finally said no, printed on the reciept is a disclaimer saying this is a custom made product and can be returned for credit towards another pair, but no refunds because you dont like them. now if the other chains would follow suit, we could stop this nonsense

Is that right, harry a saake??? I hadn't heard about that...very interesting!

I have to say I'm not in favor of refunds, myself...I mean, the lenses really are custom...I'm not sure I've ever heard of a custom tailored suit, or custom curtains being returned for a full refund.

[Johns]

The questions are: Did the time spent with her prevent you to make another sale? and Did you have to bring in someone extra to help run the office to help facilitate that sale?

If the answers are no, then you really did not lose anything.

Who cares if it prevented making another sale! I could've been out cutting my grass, rather than giving away free services!:hammer::finger:

[THE MEB]

the reason I left US Vision as a DM 25 years ago was because it took 3 weeks to get their work in, invariably it was incorrect, because they didn't check their work out before they sent it to us, so it had to be sent back, another 3 weeks. The clincher occured when they hired a blind man as the afternoon foreman, to get a grant from the govt. Hopefully things have changed in glendora nj, but if they haven't there was good reason for customers to scream for refunds. Another issue was US Vision was forced to take on the same policies for returns as the stores name they took on: eaxamples: Montgomery Ward Optical or Gimbels Optical. Typically the stores policies were to return anything for any reason with a smile on your face. This is why I am surprised that US V ision has taken this stance because I know they are still in major dept stores and take on their names.
And my last reason for leaving, the only "pal" that they carried wasn't a pal at all, but a blended(EZ2VUE) which we were forced to sell a large amount of if we were to achieve our monthly bonuses, which usually amounted to about %50 of our paychecks.

[ASenior]

I hate to state the obvious here, but, you're looking at it from the inside out. You need to look at it from the outside in.

When the patient pays for an eye exam, they receive a service.
When the patient pays for glasses, they receive a product.

You can't return a service.
You can return a product.

LandLord, I'm beginning to believe you work for a chain, nothing wrong with that but it explains your way of thinking..... With that aside I have to agree with you on this one.

If you cant manage the patients personality enough to get them to agree to let you remake the eyewear, you know... make them see well and provide them with a product that works, then give them their money back.

You could always charge them 30% of the cost of the lens and try to cover the cost of the lenses.

OR charge them a non-refundable *dispensing fee* and put it right on their receipt.

There is usually more to the story when someone wants their money back. I have NEVER seen a patient try on their new eyewear, then put them down and simply say "I cant see well.... I will now take my money back."

[Dave Metzger]

"Money carefully refunded" was partly in jest. I can count on one hand the refunds I've made in 25 years in business. This was due to careful selection of lens types and appropriate frames for the styles of the times. Did I lose sales because I refused to put -6.00 in 58 eye frames with 58 pd, when CR39 and glass were the only options? Sure. I've worked out problems with reasonable people. But we can all be heros to reasonable people if the y have valid concerns. The art of our profession is taking the unreasonable over from the dark side. They've usually been abused by other shops so they have an attitude that needs to be met with the desire to help break thru the barriers of distrust. One of my vendors favorite line is worthy of a chuckle. " I wish I had 3 accounts like you!" As I said my thanx he said " I have 12 " We can all say the same about our customers. You don't know how many good customers were referred by your most foul difficult one, but he knows he's a jerk. Anyway thanx for letting me vent.

Good news on a personal front. I became disillusioned about our profession last summer so I took a sales job with a management consulting firm from Chicago. Thank goodness the position sucked so I kept my eyes open to get back in the industry. I'm glad to say I took a position with a lab who specializes in freeform shipped overnite. I'm excited to be associated with them and hope to run into the New Englanders on this board. So glad my 30 years in this biz is not going to waste.

[chip anderson]

I can remember when opthalmologists were so honorable they didn't charge for catarac surgery if results were less than optimal.

chip

[stephanie]

My boyfriend had a dentist mess up a crown....did he get a refund ummm no he had to pay again to have it redone. Did the dentist give him a break on the procedure ummm no charged full price. When a dr gives you an rx for say high blood pressure and doesn't work do you get a refund? Um no....when dr runs tests and can't find out what is wrong with you and orders more tests do you get your money back for other tests???? Um no!!! WHY DO WE DO IT!!!!!!!

[tigerlilly]

one chain us vision has finally said no, printed on the reciept is a disclaimer saying this is a custom made product and can be returned for credit towards another pair, but no refunds because you dont like them. now if the other chains would follow suit, we could stop this nonsense

With the rise of optical retail, as in leased space inside a chain retailer, some optical places have extremely lax return policies because they're bound by the same return policies as the host store. Sears has a 90 day return policy, so Sears Optical does, too. Ditto for Wal-Mart Optical, Target Optical, the club chains and all the rest. If competitors are taking back product up to three months later, that makes it harder for smaller shops and private offices to say that glasses are not returnable at all. I may be pulling the actual number of days out of my behind, but you get the idea. They're even worse than the LC 30 day policy I've seen lambasted on these boards as ridiculous.

Notice I didn't say it was right or that I agreed that such extended return policies were good. I just pointed out that they exist, and patients get the idea that they should be able to return anything for any reason.

[loratz]

Stick to a "policy",after 30 days "no refund".Within 30 days 25% re-stocking fee.The patients who want that "retail experience" give it to them,look at Best Buy restocking fee and time period on returns.Oh yeah,I am being lax about the 30 days for optical,Best Buy is only 14 or 15 days.

[adirondackeye]

Our store has a NO CASH REFUNDS sign on the wall. We don't have a problem and do over $1,500,000 in sales. I have refunded when I know it was a crash and burn, but not because "I just don't like them." I say we don't resell used frames, we can not reuse the lenses. Sell them another pair at half price.

[ASenior]

Yeah, try to return a car you purchased after 1 day let alone 30 days. Why not compare eyewear to a car, tv, dental work, surgical procedures.... wait.... are we talking about refunds or exchanges??? I'm so confused now about what customer service is and what we are selling.... or....no.... I mean...urrr.... I'm so confused!:hammer:

[coffee joe]

our refund policy is simple. we don't do it. our policy is to make every effort to get you a corrective appliance that will suit your needs. we will do remakes up to a reasonable number of times and if you need to upgrade to a more expensive lens, you pay the dif. 99.9% of the time we turn a problem patient into a satisfied patient. for the rest, unless we did drop the ball in some way, we tell them to go ahead and follow through with what ever threats they've made in an attempt to coheres us. if it gets to that point though, we've pretty much reached the conclusion that this person's problem is behind the eyes.

[LandLord]

our refund policy is simple. we don't do it. our policy is to make every effort to get you a corrective appliance that will suit your needs. we will do remakes up to a reasonable number of times and if you need to upgrade to a more expensive lens, you pay the dif. 99.9% of the time we turn a problem patient into a satisfied patient. for the rest, unless we did drop the ball in some way, we tell them to go ahead and follow through with what ever threats they've made in an attempt to coheres us. if it gets to that point though, we've pretty much reached the conclusion that this person's problem is behind the eyes.

Do you really have such a tough, absolutey-no-refunds-ever policy?
Do you spend a lot of time in small claims court?