COT's refracting and charging???

[Oedema]

it's somehting they're being forced to do with lower reimbursements on many of the conditions that OD's can now perform. Optometry is chipping away at both ends of the field with little regard for the consequences, IMO.

Actually it's not just Ophthalmologists that have faced reimbursement cuts, it's been ALL physicians that are affected when medicare cuts it's fees. IMHO, I think the relatively small number of OD's, and the even smaller number of those providing real medical eye care, has much of an affect on medical reimbursement.

[IndianaOD]

Harry,

What false name are you registered under over on ODwire? Nice you violate the agreement and hide in the shadows.

Opticians refracting would occur until the first few multi-million dollar lawsuits went through.

If opticians can refract alone, I BET it would be a matter of months to a few years until autorefractor exams would be allowed. Then everyone loses. Opticianry does not have the accountability that any doctor does.

If an optician screwed up or acted unethically they would lose a license based on 1 maybe 2 years of education and maybe $6k accompanying tuition. I would lose 9 years of significant education and over $150k of tuition.

Want to refract, go to OD school. No 4 years of pointless non eye education like OMDs have before they actually learn useful eye training.

The eye care market is already a battleground of oversupply and overlapping expertise. We need more?

[tmorse]

Opticians refracting would occur until the first few multi-million dollar lawsuits went through.

Every licensed optician in Canada carries a mandatory $1,000,000.00 Errors & Ommisions Libility insurance policy, including those that have performed 1000's of sight-tests. Insurance actuaries assess the potential risk to the insurance companies and determine the premiums to obtain this amount of coverage... GUESS WHAT...$80.00/yrCAD

That's right, so little risk associated with sight-test refractions by opticians that this yearly premium is little more than a file-opening charge. And the provincial/nation associations providing this group insurance also earn money from this same $80.00/yr premium.

Might be a different story in the litigation-prone US, though. But I doubt it.

[Oedema]

Every licensed optician in Canada carries a mandatory $1,000,000.00 Errors & Ommisions Libility insurance policy, including those that have performed 1000's of sight-tests. Insurance actuaries assess the potential risk to the insurance companies and determine the premiums to obtain this amount of coverage... GUESS WHAT...$80.00/yrCAD

That's right, so little risk associated with sight-test refractions by opticians that this yearly premium is little more than a file-opening charge. And the provincial/nation associations providing this group insurance also earn money from this same $80.00/yr premium.

Might be a different story in the litigation-prone US, though. But I doubt it.

I wonder if insurers would cover an optician that performed sight-testing in a province where they are not authorized to do so in the event of a malpractice suit?

[chip anderson]

Odd:
Indiana O.D.'s arguement sounds very similar to the arguement I have heard and seen against O.D.'s diagnosing and treating medical conditions from physicians.
My, my times they are a changing.

We do all realize that if Eyeglass I were complied with opticans wouldn't care if they could refract or not.

Chip

[HarryChiling]

Harry,

What false name are you registered under over on ODwire? Nice you violate the agreement and hide in the shadows.

Opticians refracting would occur until the first few multi-million dollar lawsuits went through.

If opticians can refract alone, I BET it would be a matter of months to a few years until autorefractor exams would be allowed. Then everyone loses. Opticianry does not have the accountability that any doctor does.

If an optician screwed up or acted unethically they would lose a license based on 1 maybe 2 years of education and maybe $6k accompanying tuition. I would lose 9 years of significant education and over $150k of tuition.

Want to refract, go to OD school. No 4 years of pointless non eye education like OMDs have before they actually learn useful eye training.

The eye care market is already a battleground of oversupply and overlapping expertise. We need more?

First of all, I am trying my best to keep this civil and I would encourage the same respect.

The ODwire.org thing, you should know that it has never been a private forum like it's intentions were and yes I do lurk there and am in disgust with most of the things I hear. I KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY IN YOUR PROFESSION THAT SEE THESE ISSUES FROM A FINANCIAL PERSPECTIVE EVEN THOUGH THEY CLAIM THE BENEFIT OF THE PATIENT. So this brings me to the last highlighted text in your post if the market is a battleground why would you not suspect that I would be there lurking it's called recon.;) Then the overlap and expertise, this has not stopped optometry as a profession from pushing forward and overlapping into the medical arena. We do need more, opticians are the primary fabricators of the tough to fit eyewear in this country, some of us are the specialists in the eyewear arena, but that hasn't stopped many OD's and OMD's from expanding into this area of the field and I don't think it should, overall it brings the cost down for the consumer the more providers there are and the experts will always be able to survive using their skills and knowledge, so to some of us in this profession no matter which shoe is being worn Optician, OD, OMD we will always make money and have a fairly secure future, for others that have relied on legislative restriction to artificially give their businesses and practices an unfair advantage, nows the time to take your 9 years and put it to practice instead of just coast.

The line about refracting and OMD's is amazing. If you really believe your education puts you on a higher ground than the OMD who's being naive here? It is this arrogance that I count on to unravel your profession, nothing is owed to you for your time spent or schooling. Want to refract go to OD school.... Want to dispense come to my lab and go through an aprenticeship under me. You'll wish you were back in OD school double time. I can take your prescription and turn it into art if I so choose, half the time it's OD's such as yourself that are creating my woes, I spend 3 hours fabricateing eyewear that you took 15 - 20 minutes to refract and my breakage is way lower than your remakes, I guarantee it. Your profession is spending more time and resources to get away from refractions that it is creating this need so don't whine beacuse another profession sees a need that needs to be filled.

[braheem24]

[HarryChiling]

Oh. hush you. :D

[optical24/7]

Although I do support optician refracting, I think there is a better way for opticians to secure their own future, one more obtainable than getting refraction part of our regular job discription....

Outlaw doctor owned dispensaries. Just as a MD can't have a pharmacy in his office, OD's and OMD's should'nt be able to have eyewear for sale in their office. The same conflict of intertest exists for ophthalmic doctors peddling eyewear as it does for MD's and meds.


Let the stone throwing begain!! ( I've got my tin foil helmet on..:D)

[jherman]

seem refractions have been devalued in the eyes of the patient?

Who ya think is responsible for that? I see no issue with refracting opticians, if they're qualified. Apparently the MD in H-town doesn't either.

On a side note, i get a kick out reading pompous material, any more odwire.com quotes out there?

James

[HarryChiling]

seem refractions have been devalued in the eyes of the patient?

Who ya think is responsible for that? I see no issue with refracting opticians, if they're qualified. Apparently the MD in H-town doesn't either.

On a side note, i get a kick out reading pompous material, any more odwire.com quotes out there?

James

Hows this one:

"Hi
I am planning on opening a retail/optometric practice and am wondering if I need a license optician.
I have a good friend who has worked in the field for 20+ years without a license (he's from abroad) and would prefer him to work for me since I don't have to pay him as much. Is it illegal to operate an optical without a licensed optician in NJ? If it is what is most cost effective way to get around it?
I've tried contacting the state board but haven't heard back from them for a month. Any information is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,"


Apparently the doctor has no problem asking how to get around the system and short change his patients. These are not isolated cases, this kind of thing happens in real life all around us, every person here can find at least one example of something that devalues our professions in their own backyard.

For opticians I am asking how do we fix this?

[LandLord]

It is quotes like those above that put a fire in the bellies of struggling independent opticians.:angry:

[IndianaOD]

First of all, I am trying my best to keep this civil and I would encourage the same respect.

The ODwire.org thing, you should know that it has never been a private forum like it's intentions were and yes I do lurk there and am in disgust with most of the things I hear. I KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY IN YOUR PROFESSION THAT SEE THESE ISSUES FROM A FINANCIAL PERSPECTIVE EVEN THOUGH THEY CLAIM THE BENEFIT OF THE PATIENT. So this brings me to the last highlighted text in your post if the market is a battleground why would you not suspect that I would be there lurking it's called recon.;) Then the overlap and expertise, this has not stopped optometry as a profession from pushing forward and overlapping into the medical arena. We do need more, opticians are the primary fabricators of the tough to fit eyewear in this country, some of us are the specialists in the eyewear arena, but that hasn't stopped many OD's and OMD's from expanding into this area of the field and I don't think it should, overall it brings the cost down for the consumer the more providers there are and the experts will always be able to survive using their skills and knowledge, so to some of us in this profession no matter which shoe is being worn Optician, OD, OMD we will always make money and have a fairly secure future, for others that have relied on legislative restriction to artificially give their businesses and practices an unfair advantage, nows the time to take your 9 years and put it to practice instead of just coast.

The line about refracting and OMD's is amazing. If you really believe your education puts you on a higher ground than the OMD who's being naive here? It is this arrogance that I count on to unravel your profession, nothing is owed to you for your time spent or schooling. Want to refract go to OD school.... Want to dispense come to my lab and go through an aprenticeship under me. You'll wish you were back in OD school double time. I can take your prescription and turn it into art if I so choose, half the time it's OD's such as yourself that are creating my woes, I spend 3 hours fabricateing eyewear that you took 15 - 20 minutes to refract and my breakage is way lower than your remakes, I guarantee it. Your profession is spending more time and resources to get away from refractions that it is creating this need so don't whine beacuse another profession sees a need that needs to be filled.

You SERIOUSLY think that a OMD with 3 years of surgery heavy eye training is better at primary eye care than an OD with 4-5 years of eye training?

You do know that most OMDs have little to no refractice training?

The OD against optician argument is no where near the same as OD and OMD. ODs are a DOCTORAL level profession and have been for years. Its the AMA's money that keeps us from practicing up to our training.

Still in many rural and urban areas there is very little access to OMDs and the OD scope was necessary. There is no lack of eye providers at this time.

If opticians went through 3-4 years of undergrad science and 4 years of eye training then I have no problem with them doing exactly what I do. Just like another OD school.

[IndianaOD]

You also have to realize that many young ODs like myself would never have chosen OD school over med-school if the current scope of practice wasn't in place. I wouldn't be an OD of 20 years ago, I'd be a dentist or dermatologist.

[tmorse]

I wonder if insurers would cover an optician that performed sight-testing in a province where they are not authorized to do so in the event of a malpractice suit?

Do you really wonder that??? :hammer:

The issue is whether real harm to the public is likely, and also whether you possess risk assessment credentials superior to those of insurance acutaries. :hammer:

[LandLord]

As far as eye training is concerned, I've worked alongside both OD's and eye physicians. The OD's fresh out of school would routinely ask me for advice on refraction and pathology assessment.

The three years of eye training they had is nothing compared to what they learn in a couple of years in the field.

[chip anderson]

How often is an O.D. sued for malpractice over the quality of his refraction? Isn't it only when they practice medicine that they tend to get in trouble?

Ever heard of an OMD (which you claim is group of incompentents at this) being sued over a refraction?

If a refraction is perfomed and not presented as an exam for desease where is the liability?

Chip

[NC-OD]

.

The ODwire.org thing, you should know that it has never been a private forum like it's intentions were and yes I do lurk there and am in disgust with most of the things I hear.

Harry, you are admittedly a cheat and a fraud. How can anyone take anything you say seriously when you have admitted to breaking into a private website and then quoting people without their permission.

The site administrator is on to you. You may wish to come clean.

[LandLord]

Watch out Harry. I smell blood.

[chip anderson]

Harry and I have both been offered plaques saying we have been named to the "Hundred Best Optometrists" in the Country. So surely we are qualified.

Chip

[tmorse]

Harry, you are admittedly a cheat and a fraud. How can anyone take anything you say seriously when you have admitted to breaking into a private website and then quoting people without their permission.

The site administrator is on to you. You may wish to come clean.

Come clean Harry... Harry do come clean!!! HA HA HA!!

Your caught the insiders, the back-room boys, doing their evil thing. After all, this was not for regular consumption!!
But HARRY, you are Opticianry's RAMBO!!!
Keep up the good work.
But look out, Harry ... the site administrator is on to you!!

[HarryChiling]

Harry, you are admittedly a cheat and a fraud. How can anyone take anything you say seriously when you have admitted to breaking into a private website and then quoting people without their permission.

The site administrator is on to you. You may wish to come clean.

Yes I am and I see why the forum is private, its because the few in your profession that visit there talk about the future of the profession as if your out to destroy everything else in it other than yourselves. I think your profession needs a wake up call, in order to continue to think you are working toward the benefit of your patients you will need to rely on the team of professionals around you and also know your place in the field, if you think any of your schooling equates you to a medical professional I dare you to place the letters MD after your name.

I'll say one more thing, NC-OD, I am very *Proactive* about my profession. ;)

[IndianaOD]

As far as eye training is concerned, I've worked alongside both OD's and eye physicians. The OD's fresh out of school would routinely ask me for advice on refraction and pathology assessment.

The three years of eye training they had is nothing compared to what they learn in a couple of years in the field.

What you say is pure hearsay, but you must be around some crappy young ODs.

[IndianaOD]

Yes I am and I see why the forum is private, its because the few in your profession that visit there talk about the future of the profession as if your out to destroy everything else in it other than yourselves. I think your profession needs a wake up call, in order to continue to think you are working toward the benefit of your patients you will need to rely on the team of professionals around you and also know your place in the field, if you think any of your schooling equates you to a medical professional I dare you to place the letters MD after your name.

I'll say one more thing, NC-OD, I am very *Proactive* about my profession. ;)

Wow, do you depend on ODs for any of your income? Gotta go check out your little website. Why would I want MD after my name? Wake up, there is nothing magical about medical school, especially when it comes to the eye. What MD pipe are you smoking? Go worship them like they worship themselves.

I guess its a shame that ODs like me do anything they can to help out their opticians. Their income directly comes from my work and its a responsibility I take very seriously.

I think some ODs are tired of taking crap from all sides.

[braheem24]