help on wrap sunglasses

[jameselex]

Help guys !

customer's Rx OD +1.00 OS +0.75, he plays golf. we put a pair of transition CR-39 BC6 into a Rayban wrap frame, the vision was not good when he looks down and side way; then we made anothe pair of BC8 , visions are good but he feels the "swim" when he moves his head.

what can we do eliminate that?

Thanks!

[Andrew Weiss]

You need to compensate the Rx for tilt and wrap. Go to this link:

http://www.opticampus.com/tools/tilt.php

and plug in your measurements.

Check out the thread "I have a wrap compensation question" in the progressive lens forum for a very detailed conversation on the various issues causing your problem.

[jameselex]

Thanks Andrew, we did compensate the Rx using Harry's formula.

[Andrew Weiss]

If he were one of my patients, I'd probably try adjusting the tilt a bit to see if it makes a difference. If that failed, I'd post on this board and hope that Harry C, Barry S, Robert M, etc. would have some ideas -- just as you did. ;)

[AWTECH]

Thanks Andrew, we did compensate the Rx using Harry's formula.

When you compensated, did you split the "B" measurement or actually locate the pupil. If you do not locate the pupil in a wrap frame, (or any single vision for that matter, you maybe placing the lens optical center away from the center of the pupil.

[jameselex]

Thanks AWTECH.
I splited the B; I figured that for this cutomer, OC at 1/2 B would be better off, his distance vision is ok ( lots of time he doesn't even wear eyeglasses to play, it is cloudy days he needs it, specially for close up), so when he looks down , the line of sight is closer to OC (at 1/2B).

[Barry Santini]

The way it is *now*, with just about *any* steeper-base curve (8BC) wrap...

You will not eliminate the "fish-bowl" (aka, swim) effect. With the algorithms used in wrap eyewear fabrication and compensation, 8BC + Clarity = fish-bowl. You could reduce the fishbowl by accepting more astigmatism error, which would decrease peripheral clarity, but also reduce rectilinear distortion (aka fish bowl).

And that's the way it is... I tell all my clients that fishbowl is a part of wrap eyewear...some people notice/sensitive to it more, some less. I *assure* them they'll get accustomed to it...or they won't be able to wear steep BC wrap eyewear.

Also: verify astigmatism correction (or its absence): if he really "needs" any, its oversight will also complicate any compensations you do. Any if they're even slightly over-corrected (to the plus), this will magnify the effect.

FWIW

Barry

[AWTECH]

Thanks AWTECH.
I splited the B; I figured that for this cutomer, OC at 1/2 B would be better off, his distance vision is ok ( lots of time he doesn't even wear eyeglasses to play, it is cloudy days he needs it, specially for close up), so when he looks down , the line of sight is closer to OC (at 1/2B).

Based on this I would estimate that he is seeing OK looking down but looking ahead he is not. This is not a high power but the higher the power the more change due to compensation. The location of the pupil is needed for the compensation to work correctly.

It is not impossible to do yourself, but why not send a job like this to a surfacing facility that knows how to deal with compensation. They would have required the pupil location to get a correct compensation. If you are not experienced with this just measuring a frame angle can be difficult. Frame and lens angle are not the same and depending on the program used for compensation you need to know what to enter.

Just curious what is the advantage to trying to do this on your own. If it is like a hobby great. But if you are trying to save money by doing this, I think in most cases your efforts would be better placed focusing on selling more frames and lenses.

[Barry Santini]

Just curious what is the advantage to trying to do this on your own. If it is like a hobby great. But if you are trying to save money by doing this, I think in most cases your efforts would be better placed focusing on selling more frames and lenses.

Allen:
After this year's VEE, I have now come to the your (same) conclusion: Wrap fabrication should be left for your favorite "expert", whatever lab you choose.

I'm now trying to put my ego aside on this, and I admit, its been difficult. But the finer/more expert delivery/success of wrap eyewear depends on it!

Barry

(newly humbled)

[AWTECH]

Allen:
After this year's VEE, I have now come to the your (same) conclusion: Wrap fabrication should be left for your favorite "expert", whatever lab you choose.

I'm now trying to put my ego aside on this, and I admit, its been difficult. But the finer/more expert delivery/success of wrap eyewear depends on it!

Barry

(newly humbled)

Thanks for your understanding. I know it is difficult for people understand the degree of difficulty in making wrap lenses and fitting them into frames. The dynamics of this has taken my company a number of years to develop. At this point I think we can do more with wrap sunlenses than anyone. At VEE this year I actually had a number of companies I had talked to a year ago that told me they were going to be able to do the same thing, admit that they now know they can not.

It just sounds so easy. Make a few calculations and make the lens, then put it in the frame. Our new edger should be completed soon and this will add a whole new dynamic to sunlens capabilities.

[Fezz]

Allen:
After this year's VEE, I have now come to the your (same) conclusion: Wrap fabrication should be left for your favorite "expert", whatever lab you choose.

I'm now trying to put my ego aside on this, and I admit, its been difficult. But the finer/more expert delivery/success of wrap eyewear depends on it!

Barry

(newly humbled)

Barry,

What changed your point of view or feelings on this?

Curious minds want to know!

[Barry Santini]

Barry,

What changed your point of view or feelings on this?

Curious minds want to know!

Well, I imagined a (new) "competitor" opened nearby, who decided (probably 'cause its the only way they could deliver wrap eyewear), that they would employ any of the complete wrap specialists out there for their wrap sunwear fabrication, such as:

1. ICE TECH
2. Maui Jim
3. Oakley
4. Kaenon
5. Zeiss.Sola
6. Pech Optical
7. L-2 labs
8. (and all the rest I'm unaware of at present)

and further that, a client of mine would purchase (my) in-house-made wrap job , and would compare it to another made from this competitor (at any of the above labs)...

...and, based soley on the quality of the finished product I'm currently delivering, the comparative shame of my eyewear, seen side by side with the "complete"/competative product, is far worse than the current satisfaction my ego gets now from deluding myself into believing I'm delivering the best quality product I'm capable of...which has been my goal since I began as an ophthalmic dispenser.

It's that simple....technology has evolved, and a (small) retailer does not possess the money nor the technology to deliver a truly state-of-the-art wrap-sunwear product, IMHO.

Barry

[HarryChiling]

It's that simple....technology has evolved, and a (small) retailer does not possess the money nor the technology to deliver a truly state-of-the-art wrap-sunwear product, IMHO.

Barry

Barry,

Watch yourself I am highly offended by this statement. I have almost the opposite feeling. If the work I have received from the few wrap labs I have used are indicative of the technology being used today, not only do I want it in my shop, but everyone that's impressed with it otta be ashamed of themselves. Maybe my experience was bad, but I have seen nothign short of comprimised aesthetics and promises that have not been delivered. If your used to eating NY strip all your life you may be under the impression that you've had the best steak, but when you try a fillet mingnon you'll all of a sudden know that you've been eating strip steak all your life. I think the rephrasing of that statement would be in order, somwhere along the lines of your store does not posses the capabilities of fabricateing state of the art wrap eyewear. I have yet to have a lab duplicate my success with wrap eyewear, not that they aren't out there but most of them are full of hot air.

[jameselex]

I love all the input you guys got!
To AWETECH, at where we are there are not many labs can really do a better job than ours, like Harry said, I don't believe they do better jobs just because they have a newer edger, as a matter of fact a lot of times some jobs they can't do would come to our place, one of the "leading" lab here was doing 6BC only for years, and now even they have newer edger to handle the higher base curves, I am not confident enough to send a frame to them and wait for who knows the result is( once I sent out poly lenses for coating their staff cleaned them with acetone!) ,so for low Rx jobs I would hand edge them, and for medium RX I would put my dremel with my 100+ bit collection at work, it takes time but I like to do it. Of course if there is a lab like yours I probably would sent it out.
Thanks Harry for the formula! I am with you on the technology thing. I have soldered a few flexon frames with my own electric soldeing machine, so without $20,000 laser we can still fix titan frames sometime.

[HarryChiling]

James,

I get the feeling that wrap eyewear is an area that labs are clinging to and trying to obfuscate like progressives, sure their are issues that hav t be dealt with but like you I would rather pull out my dremel and go to work. I have found that most labs try to do the minimum and they are impressed with their results. Maybe some day Billy Brock will start doing wraps then I'll send them out untill then I'll continue to plug away at them.

[Craig]

Allen:
After this year's VEE, I have now come to the your (same) conclusion: Wrap fabrication should be left for your favorite "expert", whatever lab you choose.

I'm now trying to put my ego aside on this, and I admit, its been difficult. But the finer/more expert delivery/success of wrap eyewear depends on it!

Barry

(newly humbled)

This board has some very smart people and they seem to enjoy hearing themselves tell each other how intelligent they are and the same time telling others how "dumb" they are; that is not the purpose of this board in my opinion. People should feel free to ask a question and not fear being told they are stupid. THIS IS A HUGE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. I ONLY HOPE THE 6 OTHER "KNOW IT ALLS" HAVE THE SAME ABILITY TO LOOK PAST THEIR EGO AND ACCEPT NEW INFORMATION WITH RESPECT AND DIGNITY.

BARRY, I am humbled with you and look forward to technology and new ideas as a way to realize that we all need to continue learning. The day we stop being open to new ideas, is the day to retire as a dinasour. DId the few of you understand I was talking to you directly and have grown tired of your "chest thumping"?

Barry, please tell a few of your friends how liberating it can be to put your ego aside and be open to possibilities.

You made my day and gave me hope for the future of Optiboard.

Thanks for being so honest!

Craig
:cheers:

[Craig]

Barry,

Watch yourself I am highly offended by this statement. I have almost the opposite feeling. If the work I have received from the few wrap labs I have used are indicative of the technology being used today, not only do I want it in my shop, but everyone that's impressed with it otta be ashamed of themselves. Maybe my experience was bad, but I have seen nothign short of comprimised aesthetics and promises that have not been delivered. If your used to eating NY strip all your life you may be under the impression that you've had the best steak, but when you try a fillet mingnon you'll all of a sudden know that you've been eating strip steak all your life. I think the rephrasing of that statement would be in order, somwhere along the lines of your store does not posses the capabilities of fabricateing state of the art wrap eyewear. I have yet to have a lab duplicate my success with wrap eyewear, not that they aren't out there but most of them are full of hot air.

Is your ego as big as you make it out to be or are you simply afraid of actually not being the biggest bully on the board? THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN DO THE WORK YOU CLAIM TO DO!

I am working with Tag Heuer, Maui Jim, Costa Del Mar, Kaenon, Pech Optical and Ice Tech to change the optical world as Harry wants to believe it exists. Bob Pech just turned 73 and he is looking at technology for the future; he is a "TECHNOSAURAS". A dinasour who does not want the industry to pass them by; Harry you want to give him a call for some advice before we read about your type in the optical history books.

Please accept this spanking as a learning lesson and understand many people on the board feel the same way as myself. You will need to put your ego in check if you want to be a productive member of the board for anyone but yourself.

Craig

[HarryChiling]

Is your ego as big as you make it out to be or are you simply afraid of actually not being the biggest bully on the board? THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN DO THE WORK YOU CLAIM TO DO!

I am working with Tag Heuer, Maui Jim, Costa Del Mar, Kaenon, Pech Optical and Ice Tech to change the optical world as Harry wants to believe it exists. Bob Pech just turned 73 and he is looking at technology for the future; he is a "TECHNOSAURAS". A dinasour who does not want the industry to pass them by; Harry you want to give him a call for some advice before we read about your type in the optical history books.

Please accept this spanking as a learning lesson and understand many people on the board feel the same way as myself. You will need to put your ego in check if you want to be a productive member of the board for anyone but yourself.

Craig

Craig,

I have been burnt by three of the labs you mentioned who admit they cannot do a job past a certain diopter, MJ just recently cut their range by a diopter and I saved the paper work so that future opticiasn cannot call me a liar. One of your labs you mentioned took a month after telling me it would only take 3-5 days (that's smoke, buddy).

I like what the future holds, but I am realistic. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a MJ frame, lets say an Rx of:

OD: -4.00 -1.00 170
OS: -4.25

PD: 66

Make sure the lens is a 8 base lens, now lets give it three weeks time (I know one of your labs will take that long), then we will both post pictures of the work. That way we are comparing apples to apples. If your going to spank me do it properly, SHOW ME THAT I AM WRONG.

[daysofsun]

Well, I imagined a (new) "competitor" opened nearby, who decided (probably 'cause its the only way they could deliver wrap eyewear), that they would employ any of the complete wrap specialists out there for their wrap sunwear fabrication, such as:

1. ICE TECH
2. Maui Jim
3. Oakley
4. Kaenon
5. Zeiss.Sola
6. Pech Optical
7. L-2 labs
8. (and all the rest I'm unaware of at present)

and further that, a client of mine would purchase (my) in-house-made wrap job , and would compare it to another made from this competitor (at any of the above labs)...

...and, based soley on the quality of the finished product I'm currently delivering, the comparative shame of my eyewear, seen side by side with the "complete"/competative product, is far worse than the current satisfaction my ego gets now from deluding myself into believing I'm delivering the best quality product I'm capable of...which has been my goal since I began as an ophthalmic dispenser.

It's that simple....technology has evolved, and a (small) retailer does not possess the money nor the technology to deliver a truly state-of-the-art wrap-sunwear product, IMHO.

Barry

I also agree, Great Quote Barry. The reality is some of the brands you mentioned have a competitive advantage. They can develope lab equipment specificly for one wrapped frame. Which is obvioulsy why they can do so well on certain jobs. Nice to see someone look at the product and the needs of their customers so honestly. My Hat's off to you Barry. If more people like you would be vocal this would be a better place to honestly adress the needs of the consumer.:idea:

I also applaud the other people for doing the best that they can. With what being said, some humility would be nice.:hammer:

[gmanlook]

You like to blow your own horn I see. The truth is that many labs succesfully do wraps with no problems! Why do you think that you are the only one? At this point Maui Jim turns around the 8 base wraps in 2 days! I have had NO PROBLEMS! Try to be a little more humble and realize you are NOT numero uno. Gary

[Craig]

Craig,

I have been burnt by three of the labs you mentioned who admit they cannot do a job past a certain diopter, MJ just recently cut their range by a diopter and I saved the paper work so that future opticiasn cannot call me a liar. One of your labs you mentioned took a month after telling me it would only take 3-5 days (that's smoke, buddy).

I like what the future holds, but I am realistic. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a MJ frame, lets say an Rx of:

OD: -4.00 -1.00 170
OS: -4.25

PD: 66

Make sure the lens is a 8 base lens, now lets give it three weeks time (I know one of your labs will take that long), then we will both post pictures of the work. That way we are comparing apples to apples. If your going to spank me do it properly, SHOW ME THAT I AM WRONG.

This is not even a difficult job, we do those everyday and they look just like the plano. I have attached a job we just dispensed last week.

I have a minus 4 8 base on my desk and it looks like a plano; this is actually a sample for one of the labs/sunglass companies that burnt you in the past.

I have nothing to prove to you; you are the one who needs to prove this can be done by you on a hand stone with an ugly lenticular on the back.

Craig

[DragonLensmanWV]

This is not even a difficult job, we do those everyday and they look just like the plano. I have attached a job we just dispensed last week.

I have a minus 4 8 base on my desk and it looks like a plano; this is actually a sample for one of the labs/sunglass companies that burnt you in the past.

I have nothing to prove to you; you are the one who needs to prove this can be done by you on a hand stone with an ugly lenticular on the back.

Craig

That's an awful lot of nasal thickness for a 56 PD.

[HarryChiling]

You like to blow your own horn I see. The truth is that many labs succesfully do wraps with no problems! Why do you think that you are the only one? At this point Maui Jim turns around the 8 base wraps in 2 days! I have had NO PROBLEMS! Try to be a little more humble and realize you are NOT numero uno. Gary

Ok, my issue with the labs currently saying they produce wrap eyewear is:

They have limited the range of Rx they are willing to produce wraps in to the relatively easier stuff.

MJ went from -4.50 total power to a -3.50 total power in their 8 base wraps, another one of the mentioned labs above told me when I sent them my wrap that the reason it took so long to produce was because I shoudl have never sent them a job with an Rx that high (even though they had all the parameters before agreeing to the job), they also told me that they sent it out to another one of the above mentioned labs to have it cut because their equipment couldn't handle the shape. One of the labs failed to mention that the blended carrier curve would not be placed on a progressive job when I had explained first hand that would be the only reason why I would use their lab, the job came back lookign like doo doo and the labs response was it's my fault.

I am measureing these wrap solution providers based on their skill with the tough work, I am being told that I should send them the easy work, I'll be impressed.

The truth is ugly and if every one here is only interested in hearing testimonials than that's your business, but my experience is the opposite of what most here have mentioned. I have heard from many an optician that has used some of these same labs horror stories, but they are the ones not speaking.

[Craig]

That's an awful lot of nasal thickness for a 56 PD.

The lenses would have had a nasal thickness of 9mm and a temperal edge of 15mm if done with traditional processing; the edge thickness was 4mm both nasally and at the temple. The client was estatic and just ordered a clear pair from us. Try an optical calc. and see what the thickness would be without thinning!
Craig

[Fezz]

My, my, my...how this thread has veered from the original post!

I have heard from many an optician that has used some of these same labs horror stories, but they are the ones not speaking.

Harry,

You know that I step up, not aside. I am with you on this one Bro. I don't do alot of wrap eyewear, but I do enough to realize that we are in an exciting time optically. I have only used three of the labs listed on Barry's list. Only one has giving repeatable acceptability. Re-read that. Repeatable acceptability. I'm not talking great, fantastic, write home to Mom, tatoo the labs name on my BUM, shout from the Optical Rock quality . I am talking repeatable acceptability. Two labs that are front runners in the game have been DISMAL! Totally DISMAL. Matter of fact I had to eat a job just this week that one of them has dropped the ball on several times. I hate having to eat a job. What hurts is this family spends tons of money every year, no insurance, great folks. I was embarrassed. Truly embarrassed. The *quality* on the power was fine, I guess. When we get into optimizing and compensating the rx-we are at the labs mercy aren't we. We have to accept that the compensation is correct and we have to accept that the final parameters are correct-according to them! The problems were functional and cosmetic. There were flaws in the mirror coat, lenses popping out, big gaps in the eyewire-I could even slide the lens back and forth in the frame! The original job had mirror flaws and sizing issues, the first redo had sizing and shape issues, the second redo had mirrow flaws, sizing and shape issues. The patients patience was really thin when I had to call them..again..that the job sucked, really sucked.

Tough Rx though: (From memory-I'm trying to drown my sorrows on this one)
OD -0.75
OS -1.00=-0.25 x 090
SV, Poly polarized gray#3 with blue mirror and backside AR.

Repeated phone calls only ended with excuses, reasons why, claims of new and better equipment on its way, this only happens on my jobs, blah, blah, blah.

I for one am tired of being BURNED on this type of job from the "experts".

I add: I have been pleased with Pech. Of the three that I have used, they have been able to give me repeatable acceptability. Pech and only Pech. They got three more wraps this week from me, so the trial continues. But for now.....I have yet to be totally impressed. I have yet drunk the Kool-Aide! I refuse to send only *easy* jobs so these players can pay off there investment while continually stumbling on even the basics.