Problem with Panamic

[Freedom]

xiaowei

If you see contour plot of panamic ... you will see it soft and smooth.
But it narrow of clear of vision area.

Which lens have less clear vision area ... that lens is more soft and more
comfort.

which lens have wide clear vision area ... that lens is wide vision field but
more distortion.

# clear vision area : the area that no have unwant astigmatism.

exsample
hard design ... is more clear vision area But more distortion
soft design ... is less clear vision area But less distorion
Advance soft design ... is little clear vision area But more comfortable.

In news wearer ... the first thing that he feel ... the visual field and comfort of vision
People often mention blurriness and difficult transitions from one visual zone to the next.

For first driver ... everyone is difficult when will change to left or right
he will see the front mirror and see the side mirror

for old driver .... this is bread and butter ... feel natural easy easy

If who never drive truck ... he don't known ... the sedan can is soft.
If he never drive toyota vios ... he never know ... toyota camry is soft.

[Freedom]

In new wearer ... the first justment for lens is ... visual field
In old wearer .... the justment is change to ... the feeling of comfort

[xiaowei]

In new wearer ... the first justment for lens is ... visual field

Exactly, but what is the "metric" that defines the limit of the visual field?

I´m still not fully convinced, maybe I did not make my point clear enough:

New wearer: Low addition -> Low surface astigmatism anyhow, wearer is not yet used to move the head too much but will notice distortion (walking down stairs - I had a colleague with 1st PAL who switched back to bifocals because could not handle it) -> Softer design! (It is somehow surprising what amount of asigmatism non-nerdy people can ignore and will swear their glasses are "crisp" everywhere! But otherwise PALs would have never worked)

In old wearer .... the justment is change to ... the feeling of comfort

How do you define "comfort"?

Experienced PAL user: used to move head, high Adds, surface astigmatisms large and critical, but user can "handle" really bad zones, is not disturbed by distortion -> hard design!


Attached:

HOWEVER, and here I think we fully agree, there are some people (also new time wearers) who are more critical against surface astigmatism, and those will not be happy if the design is too soft (as probably Panamic)


Just my 0.02$

[apaul]

Essilor showed a sort of chart which compared the Panamic against the comfort ie better distance. reading. on a scale of 1 to 10
the Pamamic beat the comfort hands down
Alan

[THE MEB]

Alan, on first page of this thread you will see that I said basically the same thing, listening to boring frenchmen describing double blind studies that indicated better visual areas in all paramiters. Unfortunately, better is a very subject term, better for whom? Better for essilor becase they charged more for it than comfort. But the proof is in the wearing, and hands down, our patient base, as well as lens reps telling us, that Panamic was not accepted as "better" for the patients, compared to the comfort.

[Happylady]

Alan, on first page of this thread you will see that I said basically the same thing, listening to boring frenchmen describing double blind studies that indicated better visual areas in all paramiters. Unfortunately, better is a very subject term, better for whom? Better for essilor becase they charged more for it than comfort. But the proof is in the wearing, and hands down, our patient base, as well as lens reps telling us, that Panamic was not accepted as "better" for the patients, compared to the comfort.

One thing I have heard about these two progressives is that the Comfort is very forgiving if it is a little off on the PD or height. The Panamic needs to be dead on. So in studies the Panamic might come out better because in the studies they make sure it is fit perfectly. In the real world progressives aren't always fit perfectly.

[au]

very agree with happylady !

I tried with a patient with everything the same except different design. The add is +2.25.

Even the frame slightly deformed, the reslt is different.

:drop:

[Freedom]

xiaowei

The new wearer in my mean is ... first time wearer
may be have 2.00 or 2.25 or 2.50 dioptor for addition

The old wearer in my mean is ... ever used PALs before change lens
because Rx change or addition change or lens is many scratch???

I define of comfort of vision is : when wearer PALs and look around
the lens is comfortable , less distortion and feel good ...

for old wearer ... I found everyday when my patient receive new PALs ...
esp ... freeform PALs Pay more But Satify ... happiness you can see 555


DON'T change varilux comfort to varilux panamic for happy varilux comfort
wearer.

[FSTAB]

What are you guys thinking about the problems, with ordering progressive lenses to overseas lab, which their products are FDA approved and has good quality and competitive prices.
Shipping cost would be around $20-$30 per 0.5 Kg and receiving time should be a week.
Do you think it worth to try?
Another question, is there any idea or recommendation about the most resonable and organize RX lab around the country?
How we can figure out which brand of progressive lenses is better for pationts?
What is your suggestions for those pationts who likes to buy inexpensive progressive lenses?
Sorry for too many questions and I would be appriciated for your kind replys. Thank you.

FSTAB

[xiaowei]

xiaowei
The new wearer in my mean is ... first time wearer
may be have 2.00 or 2.25 or 2.50 dioptor for addition

Au, I see. If you consider a "typical" 1st time wearer as one that starts with 2.50 add!(??), then I fully agree, because we are talking about the same problems.

However, today, at least here in Germany, eyecare with usually suggest to start early with .75 or 1.00 add to get used to PALs. I think that is more likely the application where a soft design like Panamic is made for. Just my idea.

[Robert Martellaro]

One thing I have heard about these two progressives is that the Comfort is very forgiving if it is a little off on the PD or height. The Panamic needs to be dead on.

Right. The Panamic design was optimized to provide particularly good binocular vision, I suspect primarily to offset the decreased FOV caused by the very soft design, not an easy task considering the moderate corridor length. The downside is that you need to fit it precisely.

So in studies the Panamic might come out better because in the studies they make sure it is fit perfectly. In the real world progressives aren't always fit perfectly.

In my market, I rarely see better than +/- 2mm, usually combined with poor frame positioning (high and out). If I was designing a PAL for the mass market, I would make damn sure that the design was extremely forgiving.

Hmm, I´m a bit confused here. Isn´t Panamic meant to be the higher-end lens compared to the Comfort, hence *more expensive*? At least the naming, that reminds of "panoramic", seems to imply you get a very wide field of view.

I didn't notice any remarkable differences in FOV between the two, maybe a little more distance peripheral blur with the Panamic. However, it sure was nice to be able to order (five years ago) a +2.50 distance +2.25 Add, competently designed, moderate length corridor PAL for a drill mount, and get it on a +5.50BC instead of the Comforts +7.50 or +8.00.

[au]

Xiaowei,
the problems for those 1st time wearer with add 225 or 250, mostly they think or hear their friend say PAL is dizzy. In that case, the panamic will have a more significance result than comfort, however 1 year later they will complain the reading area is too small. This is about the design !

Sometimes due to the frame deformation. The Pal become "no good". Pt always complain the reading is not good enough due to long corridor.

About this problems (prevent 1st time wearer with add 200 or over) , HOYA launch a PAL with add0.88 and ESSILOR launch anti-fatigue lens, which is suggesting the more earily to tried the PAL, better will be the result.

:cheers:

[xiaowei]

Xiaowei,
the problems for those 1st time wearer with add 225 or 250, mostly they think or hear their friend say PAL is dizzy. In that case, the panamic will have a more significance result than comfort, however 1 year later they will complain the reading area is too small. This is about the design !

Au, I see:D, actually you are now supporting my in initial point:):)!

I personally do not think that an extra-soft design is good even for first timers, because it´s a bad compromise, but many customers will initially
prefer one, as you write too. That´s IMHO the reason why the PAL industry is "going soft". Clearly, after some adaption, a now more experienced wearer with considerable add will notice that the (relatively) distortion free area in the soft PAL is not really as crisp as it could be and complain, so he should better be fitted with a harder design from the begin on.

(If I would be a bad guy, I would say that if the complaint comes after after any "free remake period" has expired, it´s better for the industry (and the optician), because they can sell new glasses, but I wont´say that....)

P.S. I plan to again travel to China this August/September and this time very likely also to HK, maybe we really could 一起去玩儿，下馆子，喝啤酒，好不好？
:cheers:

[Jamelina]

In that case should I continue using ovation? And do you have any suggestions as to good PAL that has not given you trouble?

I've not had very good luck with the Ovation. The Ovation was the only PAL available at my last job and I had too many non-adapts.

I started working with the Definity and don't get any complaints from patients.

[Happylady]

I've not had very good luck with the Ovation. The Ovation was the only PAL available at my last job and I had too many non-adapts.

I started working with the Definity and don't get any complaints from patients.

You must have worked at Costco, I think it is the only one they use. What did you do when someone couldn't adapt to it and had been happy with their old progressive? Did you refund or switch them to a flat top?

I fitted a friend who has VSP with Definity Short. She wanted another pair a couple of months later but didn't want to spend the money. So I used Ovation. I fit it at 16 1/2. She likes it better then the Definity Short. I was surprised.

I haven't had any problems with Ovation but I don't use it a lot.

[Jamelina]

You must have worked at Costco, I think it is the only one they use. What did you do when someone couldn't adapt to it and had been happy with their old progressive? Did you refund or switch them to a flat top?

I fitted a friend who has VSP with Definity Short. She wanted another pair a couple of months later but didn't want to spend the money. So I used Ovation. I fit it at 16 1/2. She likes it better then the Definity Short. I was surprised.

I haven't had any problems with Ovation but I don't use it a lot.

Yea, I worked at Costco. When we had someone who wasn't happy with it we would change them in to another lens style at no charge. Or, if they wanted a refund so they could go somewhere else to try a different PAL we did that instead.

[Happylady]

Yea, I worked at Costco. When we had someone who wasn't happy with it we would change them in to another lens style at no charge. Or, if they wanted a refund so they could go somewhere else to try a different PAL we did that instead.

So you couldn't change them to another progressive if they had worn a different progressive before? Did patients get upset about that? I would hate to only be able to fit one progressive. Costco sure sells them cheap, though.

What % would you say were non adapts?

[Jamelina]

So you couldn't change them to another progressive if they had worn a different progressive before? Did patients get upset about that? I would hate to only be able to fit one progressive. Costco sure sells them cheap, though.

What % would you say were non adapts?

No we didn't have access to any other progressives. I didn't have too many people get mad. I think they were dissapointed though. I just don't think it's logical to use only one-like one size fits all. They're definitely inexpenseive...but at the same time I feel like you get what you pay for. Not to talk bad about Costco it's a great company. I'm really not sure what percentage we had that were non-adapts. It wasn't the majority, but I feel like most could have been prevented with the option of different PAL's.

[Happylady]

No we didn't have access to any other progressives. I just don't think it's logical to use only one-like one size fits all. They're definitely inexpenseive...but at the same time I feel like you get what you pay for. I feel like most could have been prevented with the option of different PAL's.

But the reason Costco can sell progressives for such extremely cheap prices is because they sell just one and get it in such quantities that they pay much less for it then private doctors do.

It makes it easy for the opticians, too. No thinking about which progressive to use. ;)

How is the AR they use there?

[DAKIZE1969]

Personally, I have never liked the Panamic. I too switched Comfort wearers into Panamic when it first arrived only to find most did not prefer their new lens. It was only after several months after it's release did a Varilux rep tell me that we probably shouldn't be switching our patients after all. Maybe they knew someting then, I don't know. However fast-forward to the relaunch of Definity under Essilor, I find out that Panamic had a flaw in the design...you had to be absoulutely perfect when fitting it. The panamic design did not allow for any error. Definity and Physio have "human error" factor built in, meaning you can be off 1 to 1.5 mm in PD (per eye) and the patient should not know the difference. With Panamic, however, this is not factored in and percision is a must.

[Jamelina]

But the reason Costco can sell progressives for such extremely cheap prices is because they sell just one and get it in such quantities that they pay much less for it then private doctors do.

It makes it easy for the opticians, too. No thinking about which progressive to use. ;)

How is the AR they use there?

It's the old school coating. They haven't started with Crizal or anything yet. Right before I left we had gotten a brochure talking about how it was built into the lens, but the coating was still going bad. It is a great place to buy childrens glasses...inexpensive because children are so much harder on glasses by nature :hammer:

[Scott R]

Always prefered the comfort and now the physio or ellipse. As of late I have had a lot of success with hoya products. Just wish they had more polarized options.

[THE MEB]

Hoya products are the best overall, IMO But your discussion about costco only having one progressive reminded me of when I managed a chain store 28 years ago. They had only one progressive as well, which we didn't know which one it was for years. Turned out it was the EZ2VU blended bifocal,lol Glad I have been with an independant doc for over 20 years now. they allow us to decide which progressive to sell to the patient.

[calirider07]

I am not a fan of the panamic at all! It (in my opinion) is very sensitive to vertex dist. and panto....You almost have to hit it right in the head. Panamic is actually older technology. We have substituted it for the Physio and it is having pretty good results. Also, the Hoya ECP is a good one. As far as a good older style, We use the Sola Percepta 85% of the time with very few remakes!

[MarcE]

No we didn't have access to any other progressives. I didn't have too many people get mad. I think they were dissapointed though. I just don't think it's logical to use only one-like one size fits all. They're definitely inexpenseive...but at the same time I feel like you get what you pay for.

Many non-adapts and dissappointments. At $99 or whatever Costco charges, how many others out there do you suppose didn't bother complaining? In a small town like mine this is a good way to destroy your business in 2 yrs. - regardless of what you charge. Guess that's why there is no Cosco around here. There's only a limited number of patients to "disappoint"

Take the patient out of an XL into ovation = problems
Fit an ovation at 15mm = problems
take the hyperope out of VIP glass into poly ovation = problems
The way I fit ovations every day = no problems