(02/08) Who would you like to see as the next President of the United States?

[rinselberg]

It’s not a debate about whether or not everything can be settled with diplomacy, the debate is whether or not diplomacy is even attempted.

Inspectors were on the ground in Iraq and they were pulled out because of the imminent threat of bombing by the US….all the while we are making the very public argument that we won’t bomb as long as they let the inspectors “on the ground”

Declaring nations enemies before even talking to them is just begging for escalation.

Have you not heard the axiom, “you catch more flies with honey”

How did we win the Cold War? Not by the actions of Reagan but by the continuous building of new allies by working diplomatically with them. Germany and Japan were turned into allies after WWII not by subjugating them, but by using the Marshall Plan. Providing moneys to allow them to build their own nations back up from the rubble. That is how wars are won.

Ah, yes ... the decade that disappeared from cosmic space time. It seemed that no living person was able to remember anything that occurred between the end of the first Gulf War (1991) and the start of the second one. Although I do remember that Bush (41) sent James Baker over there to "chat" with Tariq Aziz right before the first Gulf War in 1991. That little chin-wag did a whale of good.

[chip anderson]

Oliver North ~ Tommy Franks!

[1968]

For those who haven't heard, Mitt Romney is out. (There go my hopes for a brokered convention!)

[1968]

For those who haven't heard, Mitt Romney is out. (There go my hopes for a brokered convention!)

Dang... you think he would have stimulated the economy by himself by dropping a cool $40 million from his own bank account on ads and whatnot.

[Grubendol]

I don't know if any of you know about the problem with the "Double Bubble Trouble" in California or the fallout associated with it for those who voted Democratic when they were unaffiliated but it's becoming quite the commotion out here. There are at least 94,000 votes in LA County alone which have been thrown out because of it.

I wanted to share a commentary from a close friend who I consider to be one of the most intelligent guys I know...

Hi, everyone.

It's no secret that I've been lurking in the background for as long as these boards have been in existence; long ago I made a decision to stop actively participating because I found the (once-prominent) fruitless arguments and inevitably vitriolic personal attacks threatening to my mental health. I sort of have one of those all-or-nothing personalities. I'm either going in full steam or I'm staying home. So the rigidly disciplinary part of me said, "The best way for you to avoid being drawn into these situations is to stop posting altogether." So I did.

That being said... I'd like to share a little story with you.


I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person.

Okay, enough of the bull****. Let's face it: I consider myself an exceptionally intelligent person. I understand things. I have an eye for detail. I notice things other people don't (Yes, I saw the splash in Cloverfield). I rarely, if ever, have difficulty comprehending something I've read.

I am not a member of the Democratic, Republican, or any other political party. I have been registered to vote as non-partisan/unaffiliated since I was 18. I have voted for Democrats, and I have voted for Republicans. In all of my voting experiences, I have never felt confusion while standing in the box. I read all of the text carefully, and obsessively check to make sure that my ballot is properly inserted and aligned. I read and re-read each candidate and measure that I vote for, and make absolutely sure I am filling in the correct box. When I am finished, I scrutinize my ballot to make sure I have not made any errors or missed any issues.

On Tuesday, I walked into the Media City Church in Burbank. I gave the poll worker my name, she verified that I was politically unaffiliated, and asked which ballot I would prefer, giving me my choices. I asked her for a Democratic ballot. I was directed to use any of the "Democrat" booths.

As I always do, I went through the painstaking process of making sure that everything was set up properly. I inserted my ballot, read the entire booklet, making sure there was nothing I was overlooking, pulled my ballot back out to make sure that the correct numbered slot was lining up with my impending choice, reinserted the ballot, and then voted in a Presidential Primary for the first time in my life.

It felt good.

I proudly walked over to the drop box, became an outright nuisance to the poll workers who assured me that it could be inserted in any direction, face up, face down, top first, bottom first... it didn't matter. I apologized for the disruption, explaining in brief my neurotic fastidiousness about something so important and final and irreversible.

I walked out, still feeling good. I got in my car and drove home, and did what I usually do when I'm at home and awake. I sat down in front of my computer. Fired up the MySpace as part of my incessant website-checking rotation. And read a bulletin from a friend warning me and everyone like me that I had to be careful when voting, or my vote would be discarded.

Oh, God.

Did I fill in that bubble? I don't think I did.

But I read everything so carefully.

There's a light flashing on my answering machine. I check my messages. Scarlett Johansson is warning me that I have to be careful when voting, or my vote will be discarded.

But, but... the top part said to skip directly to the candidates if I was voting Democratic... didn't it? Oh, no. No.

I felt sick. Wouldn't you?


I don't feel sick anymore. Now I feel angry. And you can bet that if by some slim chance my discarded vote, put together with those of others like me, could have made a difference in the outcome of the Democratic nomination, and by extension, the future of this country and this world, I'm going to be a hell of a lot angrier.

If you are as disgusted with the idea of votes not being counted as I am, then go to the following link and sign the petition to get them counted.
http://www.couragecampaign.org/CountEveryVote

[For-Life]

If you are as disgusted with the idea of votes not being counted as I am, then go to the following link and sign the petition to get them counted.
http://www.couragecampaign.org/CountEveryVote

You should see the ballots here. At the top, it says something like "Place a mark in the circle next to your choice." What type of mark? Really doesn't matter. As long as it is noticable. Huge circle too. Lists the candidates and parties on the left.

Ohh, and they are all hand counted. Funny thing is, we get the results back within a couple of hours, and not a couple of days.

The only thing that we have electronically tabulated are our municipal elections. There are like 10 things to vote for, so it is easier that way. Even so, all you have to do is connect the arrows for the candidate you pick.

It is simple!

[Grubendol]

Honestly I think it's much better to have them handcounted. If you have enough volunteers or poll workers you can get them counted quickly and it's harder to rig with that many hands touching the ballots.

New York wants to go to an entirely paper based system with handcounting and the US Attorney General is trying to demand that they use electronic systems because of the Voter Rights Act.

[For-Life]

Honestly I think it's much better to have them handcounted. If you have enough volunteers or poll workers you can get them counted quickly and it's harder to rig with that many hands touching the ballots.

New York wants to go to an entirely paper based system with handcounting and the US Attorney General is trying to demand that they use electronic systems because of the Voter Rights Act.

I am a fan of electronic counting, if the system is fair and there is an equitable benefit. I think the problem lies in people just not wanting to keep it simple.

Even the scan tron equipment that education inistitutes use. As long as there is a decent mark in the circle, it picks it up. The main concern is when you place two marks in two circles or one mark in two circles. So you just make sure the choices are fair enough away.

[1968]

I am a fan of electronic counting, if the system is fair and there is an equitable benefit. I think the problem lies in people just not wanting to keep it simple.

Even the scan tron equipment that education inistitutes use. As long as there is a decent mark in the circle, it picks it up. The main concern is when you place two marks in two circles or one mark in two circles. So you just make sure the choices are fair enough away.

Congratulations on 4,500 posts!

[chip anderson]

We have been blessed with electronic voting this past year ago. And let me tell you the problems with dibold systems are too numerous to list.
I also remember back in the mid-50's I lived in Houston, TX and we were being first blessed with voting machines. At the time it was installed there were news stories that there were already 300 ways to rig the outcome on these machines.

Be carefull what you wish for.

Chip

[For-Life]

Congratulations on 4,500 posts!

thank you

I really need to spend more time working

[For-Life]

We have been blessed with electronic voting this past year ago. And let me tell you the problems with dibold systems are too numerous to list.
I also remember back in the mid-50's I lived in Houston, TX and we were being first blessed with voting machines. At the time it was installed there were news stories that there were already 300 ways to rig the outcome on these machines.

Be carefull what you wish for.

Chip

Were there problems or "perceived problems?"

It is my belief that electronic counting is far more accurate. With hand counting, you have people making many mistakes and using subjective means of deciding if a form is spoiled or not.

[1968]

I wanted to share a commentary from a close friend who I consider to be one of the most intelligent guys I know...

I heard of this problem, too... that relatively bright people were having trouble deciphering what to do. Unfortunately, the state of politics in the United States has left me feeling disenfranchised for so long that I have a hard time getting worked up about those trying to vote for Clinton or Obama.

[1968]

Were there problems or "perceived problems?"

It is my belief that electronic counting is far more accurate. With hand counting, you have people making many mistakes and using subjective means of deciding if a form is spoiled or not.

I suggest we put up an Optiboard poll (like this one!) and have the government tell everyone to register here and place their vote. Let Steve be the fall-guy!

[1968]

It's a little off topic, but here are some voter related issues that I would like to see:

1) Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment (i.e. do NOT let Senators be elected by the people of a State, but rather by their State legislatures).

2) Somehow rotate the primary and caucus schedules so that the same States do no always go first.

[chip anderson]

Why not do like Louisianna: Vote on Saturdays when everyone has the day off.

[Spexvet]

Why not do like Louisianna: Vote on Saturdays when everyone has the day off.

Not everyone.

[For-Life]

It's a little off topic, but here are some voter related issues that I would like to see:

1) Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment (i.e. do NOT let Senators be elected by the people of a State, but rather by their State legislatures).

In Canada, one issue is senate changes. We currently have an appointed Senate. The Conservatives want it elected. My concern is that through election, it will go through stricter party lines. Right now, while there are some Liberal and Conservative Senators, there is not party obligation, so I believe they vote closer to their hearts than to the party.

[1968]

Why not do like Louisianna: Vote on Saturdays when everyone has the day off.

I imagine there might be a few people watching LSU beat up on somebody during the second Saturday in November.

I wonder what would happen if I legally changed my name to "None of the above" and got my name on the ballot...

[Grubendol]

In Australia, voting day is a holiday and it is required.

I’d like to see at least part of that mandated here….

[1968]

In Australia, voting day is a holiday and it is required.

I’d like to see at least part of that mandated here….

Are you stating that voting should be mandatory, or that there should be a mandatory day off to allow people to vote?

[For-Life]

In Australia, voting day is a holiday and it is required.

I’d like to see at least part of that mandated here….

With that, an increase in people voting for someone based on their looks or their name.

[1968]

With that, an increase in people voting for someone based on their looks or their name.

Exactly! I am completely opposed mandatory voting as well as the "Get out and vote!" message. People who pay little or no attention to the issues or candidates decide only a few days before the election for whom they would like to vote out of a sense of "civic duty". By that time, the only candidates they are exposed to are those on the TV.

[Grubendol]

Are you stating that voting should be mandatory, or that there should be a mandatory day off to allow people to vote?

Well, I phrased it that way so you could play the guessing game on what I meant ;)


In all honesty though, I kinda like the idea of both…but if I were forced to choose just one it would be the voting holiday.

It would be easier to get people of all ages to work the polls and you would de facto end up with a higher turnout because of the ease of voting.

I have wanted for years to be a pollworker but I can’t because of work…

[For-Life]

Exactly! I am completely opposed mandatory voting as well as the "Get out and vote!" message. People who pay little or no attention to the issues or candidates decide only a few days before the election for whom they would like to vote out of a sense of "civic duty". By that time, the only candidates they are exposed to are those on the TV.

I would so rep you for that, but I have to spread more love first.

I hate those "it doesn't matter who you vote for, as long as you vote" campaigns. It does matter!!! I am all for democracy, and believe it is the best system out there, but I hate the fact that some moron waters down my educated vote.