What I find interesting now is that the tapes are/have been destroyed. Nice accountability and transparency.
Yes. It is torture and the US should never do it. (John McCain)
Yes. It is torture and the US should do it. (Rudy Giuliani)
No. It is not torture. It is an "enhanced interrogation technique". (Tom Tancredo)
I don't know. (also Rudy Giuliani)
Refuse to answer. (Mitt Romney)
What I find interesting now is that the tapes are/have been destroyed. Nice accountability and transparency.
For-Life:
If you had do something that was against the law or in a gray area for the good of the country or your fellow man would you keep the evidence? Would you call the New York Times and say here it is, I done it!
Don't be foolish!
If you fix something that you are not 100% sure will hold up (like a solder job, or questionable screw insertion) would you alert your competion or the press. Have you never fixed something for a friend that would work but was so sloppy (multiple solderings, etc) that you didn't tell the patient: "Here it is, I think it will work til you see the doctor (or can afford new glasses) but please don't tell anyone we did it? I have an will when it seems to be the best thing I can do at the time. (I can expect a whole bunch of holyer than thou comments after this I am sure.)
Chip
Chip, if this information was so confidential, then congress would not have known about it in the first place.
I'm sure they did their best to see that Congress didn't. Which only re-inforces how hard it is to keep secrets in Washington. Especially when the majority of congress doesn't seem to loyal to the United States anymore.
Or maybe the values of the torturers and the people using these forces are no longer loyal to the United States anymore.Originally Posted by chip anderson
Is this a moral issue?
Or just a legal/ethical issue?
Just wondering.
Absolutely both to my mind. That's supposedly what has always made the US the "shiny city on the hill" Not just opportunity, but values.
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Reported by ABC News, December 10. See Esposito & Ross for the complete report.A leader of the CIA team that captured the first major al Qaeda figure, Abu Zubaydah, says subjecting him to waterboarding was torture but necessary.
In the first public comment by any CIA officer involved in handling high-value al Qaeda targets, John Kiriakou, now retired, said the technique broke Zubaydah in less than 35 seconds.
"The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate," said Kiriakou in an interview ... on ABC World News [that was also aired] on ABC Nightline.
"From that day on, he answered every question," Kiriakou said. "The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks ..."
Video interview with former CIA agent runs 04 min 32 sec after a brief commercial.
John Kiriakou was a CIA counter-terrorism official from 1998 to 2004. In September, he coauthored a brief op-ed in the Los Angeles Times that ran under the title We're losing in Afghanistan too ...; see Kiriakou and Richard Klein.
Last edited by rinselberg; 12-12-2007 at 01:10 PM.
Yeah, so what if these terrorists capture American soldiers and torture them for information.
What do you feel about that?
When terrorists or insurgents capture U.S. or Multi-National soldiers, contractors or any other of "our" people, the way they treat "us" has little if anything to do with what they think might happen to them if it were the other way around and "we" captured "them".
That's what I think.
The real point here is that by all reports, only two detainees, both highly exceptional (the other was Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, widely credited as the mastermind of 9-11) were ever waterboarded in CIA custody or presence and not any in more recent years.
As I said before: "Waterboarding should be rare, safe and legal ..."
Their using torture is not a justification for us using torture. That goes back to my quote from George Washington earlier. We’re supposed to be better than that. It’s always been one of the hallmarks of our governmental/military operations. And when we’ve crossed the line, those involved have been called to task.
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No, the real point here is if they commit torture you would most likely freak out and want whoever perform the torture to be hung.
They can argue the same things you are. If Saddam captured a CIA member in 2001, he could have tortured him and found out that the US plans to lie and attack his nations for whatever reason in 2003. He could have then launched an attack on the US to protect himself.
That is what you are saying essentially.
Well Grubbie and For-Life ... I'd be the last one to say that you're not entitled to your opinion. But I'm pleased to remark that the latest OptiBoard poll numbers (at the top) show 16 on my side of the ledger and 13 on your side. I think that's a good showing for the "pro-choice" crowd ...
Last edited by rinselberg; 12-12-2007 at 05:25 PM.
Are you reading more posts and enjoying it less? Make RadioFreeRinsel your next Internet port of call ...
That is fine. Does not make it right.
In my opinion, I find that poll results to be pretty sad, and evidence of the lack of historical education of the US population in general. Anyone who has studied history realizes that torture does not produce reliable evidence, and that all it does is create a breeding ground for more enemies.
And I find it really interesting and refreshing that For-Life and I can be relatively as far apart politically as you could hope for, and yet we both are grounded in a morality that finds this abhorrent.
EDIT: I don't want to sound condescending in this post, but I have to say that, rinsel, I'm pretty surprised that we're on opposite sides on this. My experience of your other posts would have led me to believe you would have the same stance as myself and For Life
Last edited by Grubendol; 12-12-2007 at 03:38 PM.
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I would have framed the poll differently; just two options:
Either ...
Waterboarding of detainees, in whatever form and regardless of the circumstances, is torture, and the U.S. must not allow it to happen again.
The U.S. should also declare, publicly and unambiguously, that interrogations using waterboarding are illegal and that anyone who takes part in the waterboarding of detainees or becomes aware of it without reporting it will be subject to prosecution by the Department of Justice.
or (gets my vote) ...
The U.S. should not get involved in a free-ranging and public discussion of methods used by the CIA and other covert agencies, and should specifically refrain from public statements concerning or implying the legality or illegality of waterboarding. These are issues to be decided by the administration, within the bounds that are permitted by the elected representatives that sit on the Congressional committees that are charged with the legislative oversight of intelligence gathering and national security. Waterboarding of detainees is not a matter for public scrutiny or debate.
Last edited by rinselberg; 12-13-2007 at 06:49 AM.
You could certainly post that poll, however, I was curious to know how the people here would describe waterboarding.
I'm not sure what that meant (from 1968). But this was a good poll that has generated an interesting discussion. If there were room for a second or follow-up poll about "waterboarding", this (again) is how I would frame it:
Either ...
Waterboarding of detainees, in whatever form and regardless of the circumstances, is torture, and the U.S. must not allow it to happen again.
The U.S. should also declare, publicly and unambiguously, that interrogations using waterboarding are illegal and that anyone who takes part in the waterboarding of detainees or becomes aware of it without reporting it will be subject to prosecution by the Department of Justice.
or (gets my vote) ...
The U.S. should not get involved in a free-ranging and public discussion of methods used by the CIA and other covert agencies, and should specifically refrain from public statements concerning or implying the legality or illegality of waterboarding. These are issues to be decided by the administration, within the bounds that are permitted by the elected representatives that sit on the Congressional committees that are charged with the legislative oversight of intelligence gathering and national security. Waterboarding of detainees is not a matter for public scrutiny or debate.
I think that a second "waterboarding" poll would be one poll too many for the purposes and interests of the ECP community.
Therefore and thusly, I respectfully rest my case.
Last edited by rinselberg; 12-13-2007 at 06:51 AM.
If:
Waterboarding were truly an issue with the congress and not a publicity stunt.,
The Congresss were truly loyal to the United States,
The Press were truly loyal to the United States,
It were a "severe" measure it and more traumatic techniques would not be used training on our on servicemen (too bad John McCain didn't pay attention in class when he got his instructions).
The proceedures would not appear in the press, or be discussed in public.
Once the enemies of the United States learn whatever interrogation technicques are used, they can train to resist such measures, there fore the techniques become useless. If "all" techniques are discussed in public then "all techniques" up to and including holding their hand, talking sweetly and giveing them chocolate become useless.
There are limits on free speach and "the publics right to know" too bad the Congress doesn't see the limits.
Besides the gentlemen that has everyone upset being cited in the press claims to have a visit from Allah the very night after being waterboarded. Surely something that brings these "people" closer to thier god should be applauded.
Chip
And Yes, the small "g" is intentional.
What????????
The press should be loyal to providing unbiased and truthful news. Press being loyal to the State? Where are you living? Russia?
Chip, you should be angry. The values the US was built on, freedom of speech, moving away from tyranny, good honest leadership, it is all being forgotten by the current government.
Has long been forgotten by government, just easier to overlook when you support the regime, and easier to condemn when you don't.
We can all become like Britney Spears "I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes."
I guess what you're looking for in the press is the same as what Hitler and Stalin demanded of their press. Unquestionable "loyalty" in lieu of death.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
No what I am looking for is a Congress that can keep state secrets, do it's investigations on secret matters, draw it's conclusions and attend to the matter withou leaks.
The fault is not with the press in this matter but with the Congress. The "intelligence" (a bit of an oxymoron when refering to Congress) committes should play it's cards close to the vest and not use state secrets as photo opps.
Of course, I am for open government but not when state security is the matter in hand.
Chip
Congress is supposed to represent the people. Not some angry, money grubbing, power hungry groups and lobbyists.
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