God and Suffering

[Night Train]

I have been taking a class this fall at the college where I am employed. The class meets a general education requirement for my degree. Basically, the class has been an eye opening study about the Holocaust. It has really caused me to sit back and think harder about what I believe about God and about suffering. I am wondering if a few of you would mind sharing your views on this subject. Do you believe that God allowed the holocaust or even caused it? Does the fact that there is suffering cause you to believe that there is no God? I know we aren't going to solve this one, but I am wondering what your views are and how you came to that conclusion. And no Harry, I am not delving into the subject of suffering because the Colts have lost two games in a row. That topic is for another thread!:bbg:

[chip anderson]

Hitler caused it. We stopped it.
At least this is everyone except the ruler of Iran's version.

[hcjilson]

My understanding can be summed up by George Burns in the movie Oh God!
God gave us the gift of life on Earth. What we do with it is up to us.

[fvc2020]

My understanding can be summed up by George Burns in the movie Oh God!
God gave us the gift of life on Earth. What we do with it is up to us.

Beautifully said:). I'd only add one other thing. Evil is Evil.

Christina

[chip anderson]

As I tell my friends at church who tend to be very concerned with the afterlife. God did enough for me, just putting me here. He put me in the most fertile place on the planet. He created this rock I live on. It is beautiful. I go outside and what I see is far more beautiful than anything man has made. What more could I ask?
My benefits and troubles in life are largely of my own doing. God put me here to make or not make what I can of it.
What can a man or governent provide that is the equal of catching a big fish and watching it break the water?
I can find humor in anything, including many things I should not. If I were a holocaust victim, I could probably find enough humor in that to see me through.
Chip

[Christosfer]

I have been taking a class this fall at the college where I am employed. The class meets a general education requirement for my degree. Basically, the class has been an eye opening study about the Holocaust. It has really caused me to sit back and think harder about what I believe about God and about suffering. I am wondering if a few of you would mind sharing your views on this subject. Do you believe that God allowed the holocaust or even caused it? Does the fact that there is suffering cause you to believe that there is no God? I know we aren't going to solve this one, but I am wondering what your views are and how you came to that conclusion. And no Harry, I am not delving into the subject of suffering because the Colts have lost two games in a row. That topic is for another thread!:bbg:

I find this topic very interesting and have listened to a great many speak on the subject. If you look up Ravi Zacharias you will find some great pod casts from him on the subject.
One of the things that Ravi says is that we must first see that suffering is a Judeo/Christian idea. To a Muslim it is the will of Allah, to a Buddhist it is kharma, but you cannot be an atheist and believe in suffering and be logically consistant. If there is no God and life is an accident of matter+time+chance, then there is no meaning to life, and to say that there is suffering is to imply that there is meaning.

Most interesting is that Christianity offers a solution to suffering in the hope of the resurrection. God came into the world as a man like us in the person of Jesus Christ and suffered in perfect obedience. Now the empty tomb stands not only as evidence of our hope, but also the thing that stumps the skeptics. Jesus' enemies only had to show that the tomb was not empty to stop the spread of Christianity, but instead they verify the empty tomb by making up the story that his body was stolen.

All that from a comment on suffering. Something to think about.

[AngryFish]

I’ve seen a dog lay broken in a gutter next to a busy road whimpering in agony as death approached and saw suffering. I don’t think a belief in any god would have offered meaning to its suffering. Yet it entered its life with only one promise, it would suffer, whether through loss, hunger, pain, loneliness, abandonment, or a countless host of other uncomfortable things or ultimately in death. I think it is an ill-considered understanding of the human condition to state with such a broad and sweeping a notion that to acknowledge suffering is proof of meaning in the context of having to acknowledge Jesus as the only solution. You are making too much of a leap with your logic. In your wake suffering continues a little more agitated.

[cocoisland58]

Having grown up an Irish Catholic I can tell you that the general speil was, the more you suffer on earth, the greater your reward in heaven (assuming you have followed all the other rules). I have seen enough people suffer to say that if there is a heaven, they deserve much happiness in it. My own belief is that if there is a God he is pretty much hands off but I have seen things happen that would seem to be nothing else but an intervention from above. Even so the thought of a hands off God helps me deal with the fact that innocent children are raped and killed, among other atrocities that a hands on God could not allow. As I grow older and watch way too much news on the TV I find myself becoming more and more an Agnostic. However I'm sure I will do a turn around if I should ever find myself in dire straits. Such is human nature. Deep down I do believe but wonder what the heck He's doing up there while yes...all the suffering goes on down here. Who am I to try to figure it out when higher brains than mine have not been able to?

[Jubilee]

I wish I could find this perfect piece of prose I once had that expressed my thoughts so well.

Basically, I believe that God created the world and man. He also gave us the freedom to do what we want with it. He gives us words of wisdom and instruction. Tries to make sure we understand right from wrong. However, in the end it is up to US to live up to the potential we have for ourselves and this world. Much the same as it is for a parent to teach their children, and let them make choices right or wrong to learn and grow. And sometimes, those periods of great personal growth occur when someone be it ourselves or another has failed.

Does it make us sad when our children go against our teachings? It does me. When you child lies, cheats, or fight... how do you punish them? I mean, what crimes should make someone get stuck by brimstone and fire?

I don't think it is possible to know joy without sorrow. Do I want to experience that, do I want to see others experience that? NO. I try to avoid it. However when I look back on my darkest times, I also can see the growth I experienced, my compassion for my fellow man rising, and my inner strength fortified.

Maybe we are tended like roses.. needing occasional pruning to allow for us to bloom and grow...

[1968]

One of the things that Ravi says is that we must first see that suffering is a Judeo/Christian idea. To a Muslim it is the will of Allah, to a Buddhist it is kharma, but you cannot be an atheist and believe in suffering and be logically consistant. If there is no God and life is an accident of matter+time+chance, then there is no meaning to life, and to say that there is suffering is to imply that there is meaning.

Suffice it to say, there are plenty of people who disagree with this.

[Uncle Fester]

Do you believe that God allowed the holocaust or even caused it? Does the fact that there is suffering cause you to believe that there is no God?

Regarding the first sentence. To believe that means that God caused the Colts to lose the last 2 games. Doesn't it? Mr Jilson is right on on this.

Regarding the second sentence. No. But I believe in reincarnation and that to me explains why a soul would sacrifice itself to help teach another that God wants us to live by the golden rule.

Reincarnation to me answers so many of lifes profound mysteries.

[Christosfer]

I’ve seen a dog lay broken in a gutter next to a busy road whimpering in agony as death approached and saw suffering. I don’t think a belief in any god would have offered meaning to its suffering. Yet it entered its life with only one promise, it would suffer, whether through loss, hunger, pain, loneliness, abandonment, or a countless host of other uncomfortable things or ultimately in death. I think it is an ill-considered understanding of the human condition to state with such a broad and sweeping a notion that to acknowledge suffering is proof of meaning in the context of having to acknowledge Jesus as the only solution. You are making too much of a leap with your logic. In your wake suffering continues a little more agitated.

I did not write that with the intent of insulting you. However, I think the very issue of suffering points to the fact that we feel it's not supposed to be like this. That is, when you or I see animal suffering or children, it doesnt seem right. I believe that the feeling we have is true, it is not right. I also believe it will be made right. All the accounts will be settled.

[Christosfer]

Regarding the first sentence. To believe that means that God caused the Colts to lose the last 2 games. Doesn't it? Mr Jilson is right on on this.

Regarding the second sentence. No. But I believe in reincarnation and that to me explains why a soul would sacrifice itself to help teach another that God wants us to live by the golden rule.

Reincarnation to me answers so many of lifes profound mysteries.

You believe in God and reincarnation? Does that mean that you believe that we have to work off our bad kharma too? If so, how does God play into this system?
One other question I have for you since you believe in reincarntion; how does reincarnation account for the increase in global population, where do the souls come from?

[Christosfer]

Suffice it to say, there are plenty of people who disagree with this.

I am sure that you are right. Although, believing something to be true has no bearing on it being true or not, outside of preference sort of beliefs such as red is the best color.
A person can believe that suffering is wrong and not believe in a creator God. How could they say that the suffering they experience is anything more than a preference type of belief? "It is suffering to me, therefore it is suffering."

If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver. That is really the basis of what I am trying to say.

[AngryFish]

"I did not write that with the intent of insulting you. However, I think the very issue of suffering points to the fact that we feel it's not supposed to be like this. That is, when you or I see animal suffering or children, it doesnt seem right. I believe that the feeling we have is true, it is not right. I also believe it will be made right. All the accounts will be settled." Christofer



No offense taken. Without exception everything that has a beginning has an end. Prior to the end it is reasonable to expect degradation, it is also reasonable and witnessed that aberrations from best case scenarios are frequent, some would argue common. Sensory input in place to promote best case outcomes would record unfavorable circumstances and negatives in some organisms as “suffering” in order to foster a better chance of survival and procreation. Whether noticed in a tree, grass, a star or galaxy, organic or inorganic, a cyclic re-birth of things, life as we currently understand it, seems to be “in its time”. I don’t see the direct connection between this agreed upon state and suffering, when suffering is linked to spirituality it makes its first leap and when it is tied to a single answer, it’s second. I am not concluding that you are right or wrong, just suggesting there are a few more steps to take us through before we can reach your conclusion.

[AngryFish]

“If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver. That is really the basis of what I am trying to say.” Christofer

The idea of a moral law is similar to the idea of a natural law and in fact, I believe, that most law considered moral law is not in conflict with natural law, as it pertains to human interaction. The “laws” needed would be the result of two necessary conditions, one for life to exist, and two, to then exist more comfortably. No spiritual component needs to be introduced to explain or understand that certain protections are necessary and must be in place for the sake of insuring procreation and the ability to sustain life. Once that is accomplished additional laws based on the same understood necessities that allow for the sustaining of life are extrapolated to increase comfort and aid in the management of the larger populations that follow. So the definition of moral is then subjugated by the type of life it pertains to.

[For-Life]

I think the holocaust woke up the world to horrible racial offenses being committed. I wonder if that did not happen if it would have only got worse.

[1968]

I am sure that you are right. Although, believing something to be true has no bearing on it being true or not, outside of preference sort of beliefs such as red is the best color.
A person can believe that suffering is wrong and not believe in a creator God. How could they say that the suffering they experience is anything more than a preference type of belief? "It is suffering to me, therefore it is suffering."

If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver. That is really the basis of what I am trying to say.

I do understand that you believe that to be true, and I certainly agree with you that believing something to be true does not necessitate that it is true.

[hcjilson]

Regarding the first sentence. To believe that means that God caused the Colts to lose the last 2 games. Doesn't it? Mr Jilson is right on on this.

Regarding the second sentence. No. But I believe in reincarnation and that to me explains why a soul would sacrifice itself to help teach another that God wants us to live by the golden rule.

Reincarnation to me answers so many of lifes profound mysteries.

Unfortunately, in my sphere of belief, God is too busy to take sides between the Patriots and the World Champion Colts ( I can't believe I actually typed that!). What he has done is leave it for friends to hash it out with trash talking. God loves BOTH teams equally.......but through his gifts, the Patriots are more talented!

[Judy Canty]

Then I guess I'll chant most earnestly for my poor Redskins. It's Dallas week...:shiner:

[cocoisland58]

Someone decided that my earlier post deserved a red dot on my reputation. Certainly my fellow optiboarders embrace opposing views on most any subject so I can only surmise that it was Sister Philomena from fourth grade religion class. Sorry Sister, I forgot not to question the powers that be.

[Christosfer]

No offense taken. Without exception everything that has a beginning has an end. Prior to the end it is reasonable to expect degradation, it is also reasonable and witnessed that aberrations from best case scenarios are frequent, some would argue common. Sensory input in place to promote best case outcomes would record unfavorable circumstances and negatives in some organisms as “suffering” in order to foster a better chance of survival and procreation. Whether noticed in a tree, grass, a star or galaxy, organic or inorganic, a cyclic re-birth of things, life as we currently understand it, seems to be “in its time”. I don’t see the direct connection between this agreed upon state and suffering, when suffering is linked to spirituality it makes its first leap and when it is tied to a single answer, it’s second. I am not concluding that you are right or wrong, just suggesting there are a few more steps to take us through before we can reach your conclusion. [ANGRYFISH]

You are obviously a well educated and thoughtful person, so I am very glad to engage in this conversation. You are causing me to think about what I belive and why I believe it, which I have done, but to put it to words succinctly is another thing.
Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "in it's time" for me, I am not sure what you meant by that.
I will say this one thing, it is not just the suffering, but it's agreed uponness. Make sense? I am running short of time, but I was going to quote C.S. Lewis from Mere Christianity. I will do that another time.

[DragonLensmanWV]

You believe in God and reincarnation? Does that mean that you believe that we have to work off our bad kharma too? If so, how does God play into this system?
One other question I have for you since you believe in reincarntion; how does reincarnation account for the increase in global population, where do the souls come from?

Simple. God just goes to SoulMart and gets them on closeout.:D
Sorry to inject some humor here.

Has anyone here read Piers Anthony's On A Pale Horse?

[gemstone]

I’ve seen a dog lay broken in a gutter next to a busy road whimpering in agony as death approached and saw suffering. I don’t think a belief in any god would have offered meaning to its suffering. Yet it entered its life with only one promise, it would suffer, whether through loss, hunger, pain, loneliness, abandonment, or a countless host of other uncomfortable things or ultimately in death. I think it is an ill-considered understanding of the human condition to state with such a broad and sweeping a notion that to acknowledge suffering is proof of meaning in the context of having to acknowledge Jesus as the only solution. You are making too much of a leap with your logic. In your wake suffering continues a little more agitated.

You ask God how can he allow such suffering. The answer may well be. I am only on Earth as a spirit. Only in the hearts of men and women like you, that would allow me in. I ask you now, how could you allow such suffering? What relief have you offered? You were there physically.

[chip anderson]

God gives you the world, God gives you life. Who are we to ask for more. Nowhere does God say that we will be exempt from lifes tragedies, accidents, or life except. Go outside and look at the world (at least the part made by God) then what more could you ask.


Chip

Some of us ask God (others ask the government) to deliver us from ourselves. Why should he?