God and Suffering

[rinselberg]

It's a quality cover, rins. Is that you on vocals?

That's a "killer"! I have no talent whatsoever at performing music, neither instrumental or vocal. I just "borrowed" that mp3 because I couldn't find one of the original Chicago track anywhere on the Web for free. It never occurred to me that anyone would think that I was on the audio track myself. The cover of Does Anyone Really Know What Time It Is? was performed by these folks. When I said "hawking my wares", I was only joking. The only "wares" are this OptiBoard post that I made about Loop Quantum Gravity and its implications regarding the nature or physics of what we experience as "time".

[rinselberg]

..the Milgram experiment proved [that] humans in general will do whatever a person dressed up as an authority figure tells them to do . . .

In the context of the Nuremberg trials--especially the first such trial, known as "The Trial of the Major War Criminals" (Germany; 1945) and also, the [Adolf] Eichmann trial (Israel; 1961)--my uncredentialed opinion is that the Milgram experiment(s) actually have little relevance.

The roster of Major War Criminals was headed up by Hermann Goring. It comprised 24 of the highest ranking members of the Nazi regime. Eichmann could easily have fit into the same category.

How are these defendants comparable in any way to the "little people" in the Milgram experiment who kept pressing the buttons that they thought were causing a subject to receive painful, even life-threatening electrical shocks? The Milgram button pressers were recruited from ordinary occupations like teaching. They were compensated with the grand sum of $4.50 per hour for their participation.

The Major War Criminals were more like the authority figure in the Milgram experiments: the labcoat-attired "scientist" who told the participants to disregard the dire protestations of the Milgram "victims" and keep pressing the "shock" buttons.

Goring's involvement in Nazi activities spanned most of his adult life. Ultimately it enabled him to live like a multi-millionaire. Ironically, his anti-Semitism and aggressive German nationalism--by some expert accounts--were more a ploy that enabled him to live the life of "the rich and famous" (under Hitler), than an expression of authentic Nazi beliefs.

The other Major War Criminals were handsomely compensated in various ways. For some, it was the appointments to high military and government posts with commensurate material compensations. For others: a chance to exercise their anti-Semitism and other Nazi convictions beyond any imaginable limits or constraints.

It's worth noting that of the Major War Criminals, three were acquitted and several received prison sentences ranging from 10 years to life. Not all were consigned to the hangman.

Does that sound like the workings of a "Kangaroo court"..?

There's an almost universal idea about Eichmann, that he was a somewhat mortified "clerk" or "order taker" who didn't want to help murder millions of innocent people, but was incapable, by personal conviction and "national" character of stepping out of line or bucking the system. Or even just resigning his post or trying to turn his back on the Nazi regime in some other way. In other words, a "Milgram experiment" Eichmann.

I saw a documentary on the Eichmann trial some years ago. It seemed like a carefully researched presentation. This documentary presented a very different Eichmann. Testimony at the trial established beyond reasonable doubt that Eichmann was anything but a reluctant and mortified "paper pusher". Eichmann liked murdering people. In fact, "liked" is an understatement. He "loved" it. He did everything he could to advance the Holocaust, and continued in it, even when some of his peers and even his nominal superior (Himmler) were trying to back away from it--to stop it and try to cover it up or escape from the certain judgement that they could finally see coming as the German war was being lost.

The "paper pusher" Eichmann was a phoney image that Eichmann (and perhaps his defense counsel) tried to create at the trial in 1961. That image was popularized by the Jewish philosopher and political theorist, Hannah Arendt, as "the banality of evil". It was an image that captured the world's imagination. But Arendt was a somewhat self-contradictory person in her thinking and even in her path through life. (I think her husband--a Pole?--was known to be somewhat anti-Semitic.)

So where does the Milgram experiment fit into this context?

Hardly at all.

When you consider the subsequent legal proceedings against lower-ranking Nazis, there could be more "Milgram" relevance. But few of those defendants were sentenced with even as much as serious prison time. I'll bet dollars-to-donuts that systematic research would confirm my views on this.

[Spexvet]

What is your evidence for that claim?

George W. Bush.:p:p

[rinselberg]

There is no god..

What is your evidence for that claim?

George W. Bush.. :p:p

Nope. It's this.. :p:p . . . and this.. :finger: :cheers: :hammer: :bbg: :angry: ... etc.

"No, you may not use smilies."
--posted by an OptiBoarder who is no longer active

[AngryFish]

“Does that sound like the workings of a "Kangaroo court"..?”

I think a Court with an agenda is one fair way to describe it as some of the following demonstrates the forgone conclusion that directed the Allied Forces, and therefore the Courts actions’.

The United States Chief Prosecutor during the hearing of 26 July 1946 at the Nuremberg Trial, said that the International Military Tribunal was simply a “continuation of the war effort of the Allied nations” against Germany, with which they were “technically still at war,” even though the enemy’s political and military institutions had been crushed.5

Another startling method to insure a “correct adjudication” was the addition of articles 19 and 21 of the London Agreement of 8 August 1945, which stated the Nuremberg Tribunal “shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence” and “shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge, but shall take judicial notice thereof.” 7 In practice, these articles authorized the accusers to repeat the most unsubstantiated accusations as if they were proven facts—such as the instantaneous destruction of an experimental village of 20,000 Jews on the outskirts of Auschwitz by means of a new German “destructive substance” (Zerstörungsstoff) 8 or to lie, as in the case of the Katyn Forest massacre, perpetrated by the Soviets, and which was knowingly attributed to the Germans.9

5 Der Prozess gegen die Hauptkriegsverbrecher vor dem Internationalen Militärgerichtshof. Nürnberg. 14 November 1945 – 1. October 1946. Veröffentlicht in Nürnberg, Deutschland, 1949, vol. XIX, p. 440 (hereinafter: IMG).
· 6 A.J.P. Taylor, Le origini della seconda guerra mondiale. Bari, 1975, p. 37.
· 7 IMG, Vol. I, p. 16
· 8 This story was told by Prosecutor Justice Jackson of the United States during the hearing of 21 June 1946 (IMG, Vol. XVI, p. 580). Carlos Whitlock Porter, in the book, Made in Russia: The Holocaust, (Historical Review Press, 1988) has collected a great number of these allegations, which may be consulted in facsimile from the corresponding pages from the Nuremberg trial transcript (American edition).
· 9 IMG, Vol. VII, p. 470. The Soviets did not restrict themselves to a simple affirmation of this lie, but introduced “more than one hundred witnesses,” “forensic medical reports,” and “documents and exhibits” in support of it—all totally false.

[chip anderson]

At the end of a war there are the guilty and the scapegoats.
Many German war criminals were rounded up by ourselves, the Brits, and the Soviets as soon as we could catch them. Not for prosecution but because they had knowledge that we could use. We needed to know about rockets, jet engines, bombs, radiation, chemistry and lots of other things in which we felt their knowlege might be superior to ours.
Suddenly these people were not war criminals but supressed German Citizens forced to work for the Nazi's now willing to help the Allies.

War is a strange thing and many strange things happen before during and after. If the Alkida, the Talliban, and whatever had some technology we could use, some of them would be liberated today. As it is they can only go back and make war on us with primitive tools (as compared to ours).

After any war there is little use for the more barbaric politicians so they must go on exibit and be done away with in a short time (lest for some reason they escape, or are released and cause even more trouble as living martyrs.. a'la Lamumba.

Chip

[AngryFish]

Faith in Truth may seem to becomes more necessary as science sheds increasing light through understanding. But as we realize the mechanism for how things operate in the physical world we are able take increasing comfort in better knowing the miraculous revealed. The reassurance is in the complexity and how seamless the various and intricate details are woven together give us assurance of the far from random nature of things. I recently learned how far more complex a rock was, in terms of atomic organization, than a watch or even human DNA and if gave me cause to now hold what I viewed as random as in fact far more considered than I first assumed.

I often wondered about the beauty in unseen detail and events. What is the purpose or need in things unknown in terms of their exquisite nature and mans ignorance of them and now wonder if it is simply an extension of how scientific pursuit is encouraged by a God not afraid of revelation.

To come to understand the nature of evolution and its decenting impact on the six literal days of creation recorded in Genesis is not an insult or blasphemy to a God who endowed part of that creation with reason and intellect, it is an inevitability. A scientist is no more wrong concluding their is no God in light of his understanding than a Godly man is being convinced that denying current truth is necessary to affirm his belief in the same God.

I can speak as one who is scientifically ignorant but who possesses a level of reason sufficient to allow me to safely assume that those more educated, in theses areas of my relative ignorance, know more than I do about those areas in which they have been convinced by application of this same reasoning ability. Far from an enemy they are my proxy, dedicated to advancing a facet of our collective understanding of the world in ways I will never completely understand. But I have to reason their understandings are based in some truth as so much of what we have is the result of these truths applied. Further they are honorably motivated by a burning desire to understand the unknown using reason and intellect in the same way I would had I the same education, access to information, and passion for scientific understanding.

I can see how for a scientist it would be frustrating to seemingly have to deny what has been concluded based on study and application and goes against what they know to be true in order to allow for God. I also recognize the same can be said for an individual who knows, as the result of the application of knowledge and experience, the reality of a personal God who is not expressable as a quantifiable being.

It was in the fleeting moments of the end of this day that these seeming inconsistencies married in my arms. As I carried my son off to bed I stopped to rock him in a chair before I placed him under his covers for the night. As I held this little marvel of nature in my arms, his right foot resting in the palm of my hand, I was struck by this seamless joining of spirit and biology. His body and its functions can be reveled by science, his thoughts and feelings understood as chemical reactions, yet his essence is undeniably unique and unknowable and he will forever be a mystery never completely understood, even to himself, much like the God who created him. I say that as one who has like many, on occasion, heard a still small voice and knows the truths It reveled were not possible to intuitively know given the limitation of the vessel to which they were imparted, that the Spirit is as able as the flesh is weak.

No denial of truth is needed to embrace either science or God the simple elegance of each points to the other.

[hcjilson]

That was impressive! Many often say that what sets man apart from other forms of life is intelligence. Rather, I prefer to think that it is faith that sets us apart.

[Caree]

god Is Spelled With A Capitol G!!

Capital Is Spelled With An A

[chip anderson]

Caree: At least we know which is more important to you.....

[Steve Machol]

Caree: At least we know which is more important to you.....

You're showing your ignorance Chip. I've known Caree since she was 2 years old. When you don't know what you are talking about, it's best to just keep quiet.

[chip anderson]

Now Steve:

Surely you don't think criticising some one that would worry about the spelling of other words and not capitalize God in big bold capital letters, is in there with extreeme clan inspired bigotry that you and Judy think I possess. I shall always defend God (and yes I know He doesn't need my help) and those I feel that are oppressed. We just disagree on those we feel are oppressed.
If someone feels God does not need to be capitalized, but capital does, that's just wrong.

Chip

[braheem24]

If someone feels God does not need to be capitalized, but capital does, that's just wrong.

I agree with you Chip. Unfortunatly that's not the case, you're mis-reading her comment.

[Caree]

I agree with you Chip. Unfortunatly that's not the case, you're mis-reading her comment.

Indeed, I capitalized capital because it was the first word in the sentence. My children call me the grammer police and they are both English majors and writers now...Chip,hon,I am a Christian (notice the upper case letter) and proud of it. I certainly did not mean to criticize or offend you,I was just teasing you for taking yourself far to seriously. Lighten up dude,life is too short for issues like this,have a little fun once in a while. Sing and life will be more positive. Thank you Steve,you were always my favorite brother!

[Caree]

Now Steve:

Surely you don't think criticising some one that would worry about the spelling of other words and not capitalize God in big bold capital letters, is in there with extreeme clan inspired bigotry that you and Judy think I possess. I shall always defend God (and yes I know He doesn't need my help) and those I feel that are oppressed. We just disagree on those we feel are oppressed.
If someone feels God does not need to be capitalized, but capital does, that's just wrong.

Chip

All I did was click quote,that is how it transferred,I didn't type God with a lower case G. XX

[chip anderson]

But Caree: You didn't capitalize God.

[Caree]

But Caree: You didn't capitalize God.

See my above message,I DIDN"T TYPE IT AT ALL, clicked QUOTE and that is how the system transferred it. I have not tried,but I don't believe it will let me edit a quote from another person.

[k12311997]

As I held this little marvel of nature in my arms, his right foot resting in the palm of my hand, I was struck by this seamless joining of spirit and biology.

I have often wondered how it is possible for someone to look at a new life and not believe there is something more than just the joining of sperm and egg.

[Andrew Weiss]

A different point of view:

This is from the latest book I'm working on. I don't use the word "God" in this section. Whether you use the word God, or Divine, or True Nature to describe it doesn't matter to me. And whether you transform your consciousness through Buddhist practice, faith in the Christ or in Allah, or through other means doesn't matter to me; I believe what matters is that each of us takes that step.

This world we live in is the creation of our common consciousness. Every aspect of it, from the ones we love like the beautiful sunset to the ones we abhor like the ethnic cleansing in Somalia, is the created, manifested result of different aspects of our common consciousness. Ethnic cleansing, whether it occurs in Somalia, Yogoslavia, Tibet or Nazi Germany is the inevitable consequence of deeply held fear of those who are different from ourselves; so are the resulting mental formations which tells us that only we know the real truth, only we are truly pure, and those “other people” deserve to be slaughtered and tortured. Look deeply into yourself and see whether that fear of the “other” lives in you; unless you have worked with it already, I have no doubt that you will find it deep inside, whether you have ever acted on it or not.

The inevitable karmic conclusion, the result of cause and effect, is simple: we will continue to have ethnic cleansing so long as those mental formations about the “other” play a dominant role in the collective consciousness. Once that settles in, you will begin to see what a big and powerful undertaking it is to work on changing the collective consciousness. The more of us who hold a different point of view, who see the fear of the “other” as an opportunity to work toward peace and understanding, the more likely those old mental formations are to give way.

We play out our collective karma on the stage of this planet and this universe. The karma each of us embodies is both a piece of our collective karma, the result of our collective consciousness, and our own individual karma, the result of our individual actions. If we have a common consciousness of scarcity, of rich and poor, then for each person playing out the manifestation of surfeit there is someone playing out the manifestation of lack. And it just may be that the person playing out the manifestation of lack is doing so, not because she did something awful in this lifetime or a former one which would mean she “deserved” to be poor, but because she is a great being who has taken on this manifestation out of her compassion and love so we can see how degrading and destructive poverty is. When we delve deeply into our collective consciousness, we can see how many beings have sacrificed themselves, lifetime after lifetime, in their effort to change our collective consciousness by showing us the consequences of our collective karma and trying to awaken our compassion. We can listen to them. The Cambodian Buddhist monk Maha Ghosandanda wrote a prayer for world peace which begins, “The suffering of Cambodia has been deep. From this suffering arises Great Compassion.” We have the opportunity to harness this great compassion and change that deep suffering by changing our consciousness.

[LandLord]

A different point of view:

This is from the latest book I'm working on. I don't use the word "God" in this section. Whether you use the word God, or Divine, or True Nature to describe it doesn't matter to me. And whether you transform your consciousness through Buddhist practice, faith in the Christ or in Allah, or through other means doesn't matter to me; I believe what matters is that each of us takes that step.

This world we live in is the creation of our common consciousness. Every aspect of it, from the ones we love like the beautiful sunset to the ones we abhor like the ethnic cleansing in Somalia, is the created, manifested result of different aspects of our common consciousness. Ethnic cleansing, whether it occurs in Somalia, Yogoslavia, Tibet or Nazi Germany is the inevitable consequence of deeply held fear of those who are different from ourselves; so are the resulting mental formations which tells us that only we know the real truth, only we are truly pure, and those “other people” deserve to be slaughtered and tortured. Look deeply into yourself and see whether that fear of the “other” lives in you; unless you have worked with it already, I have no doubt that you will find it deep inside, whether you have ever acted on it or not.

The inevitable karmic conclusion, the result of cause and effect, is simple: we will continue to have ethnic cleansing so long as those mental formations about the “other” play a dominant role in the collective consciousness. Once that settles in, you will begin to see what a big and powerful undertaking it is to work on changing the collective consciousness. The more of us who hold a different point of view, who see the fear of the “other” as an opportunity to work toward peace and understanding, the more likely those old mental formations are to give way.

We play out our collective karma on the stage of this planet and this universe. The karma each of us embodies is both a piece of our collective karma, the result of our collective consciousness, and our own individual karma, the result of our individual actions. If we have a common consciousness of scarcity, of rich and poor, then for each person playing out the manifestation of surfeit there is someone playing out the manifestation of lack. And it just may be that the person playing out the manifestation of lack is doing so, not because she did something awful in this lifetime or a former one which would mean she “deserved” to be poor, but because she is a great being who has taken on this manifestation out of her compassion and love so we can see how degrading and destructive poverty is. When we delve deeply into our collective consciousness, we can see how many beings have sacrificed themselves, lifetime after lifetime, in their effort to change our collective consciousness by showing us the consequences of our collective karma and trying to awaken our compassion. We can listen to them. The Cambodian Buddhist monk Maha Ghosandanda wrote a prayer for world peace which begins, “The suffering of Cambodia has been deep. From this suffering arises Great Compassion.” We have the opportunity to harness this great compassion and change that deep suffering by changing our consciousness.

Andrew's a new age tree hugger !!!

[Christosfer]

A different point of view:

This is from the latest book I'm working on. I don't use the word "God" in this section. Whether you use the word God, or Divine, or True Nature to describe it doesn't matter to me. And whether you transform your consciousness through Buddhist practice, faith in the Christ or in Allah, or through other means doesn't matter to me; I believe what matters is that each of us takes that step.

This world we live in is the creation of our common consciousness. Every aspect of it, from the ones we love like the beautiful sunset to the ones we abhor like the ethnic cleansing in Somalia, is the created, manifested result of different aspects of our common consciousness. Ethnic cleansing, whether it occurs in Somalia, Yogoslavia, Tibet or Nazi Germany is the inevitable consequence of deeply held fear of those who are different from ourselves; so are the resulting mental formations which tells us that only we know the real truth, only we are truly pure, and those “other people” deserve to be slaughtered and tortured. Look deeply into yourself and see whether that fear of the “other” lives in you; unless you have worked with it already, I have no doubt that you will find it deep inside, whether you have ever acted on it or not.

The inevitable karmic conclusion, the result of cause and effect, is simple: we will continue to have ethnic cleansing so long as those mental formations about the “other” play a dominant role in the collective consciousness. Once that settles in, you will begin to see what a big and powerful undertaking it is to work on changing the collective consciousness. The more of us who hold a different point of view, who see the fear of the “other” as an opportunity to work toward peace and understanding, the more likely those old mental formations are to give way.

We play out our collective karma on the stage of this planet and this universe. The karma each of us embodies is both a piece of our collective karma, the result of our collective consciousness, and our own individual karma, the result of our individual actions. If we have a common consciousness of scarcity, of rich and poor, then for each person playing out the manifestation of surfeit there is someone playing out the manifestation of lack. And it just may be that the person playing out the manifestation of lack is doing so, not because she did something awful in this lifetime or a former one which would mean she “deserved” to be poor, but because she is a great being who has taken on this manifestation out of her compassion and love so we can see how degrading and destructive poverty is. When we delve deeply into our collective consciousness, we can see how many beings have sacrificed themselves, lifetime after lifetime, in their effort to change our collective consciousness by showing us the consequences of our collective karma and trying to awaken our compassion. We can listen to them. The Cambodian Buddhist monk Maha Ghosandanda wrote a prayer for world peace which begins, “The suffering of Cambodia has been deep. From this suffering arises Great Compassion.” We have the opportunity to harness this great compassion and change that deep suffering by changing our consciousness.

I suppose that if you mean by world, our culture, and that we contribute to that culture, then I can accept that. ("This world we live in is the creation of our common consciousness.")
I am thinking that you meant that a bit more literally. It looks to me like you think this is really truly true. You really believe what you said.
In fact it sounds rather dogmatic.
Here are a couple problems that I have with the "new age".

1. It is inherently self contradictory.

2. If Jesus being so good was reincarnated, what hope do I have?

3. THE SINGLE MOST DEPRESSING THOUGHT THAT I CAN IMAGINE IS TO DISCOVER THAT I AM GOD. You mean...I'm it??? I disappoint myself, that is not a quality that I expect from God. Are you going to correct me on that last thought, then I am wrong too??? I am GOd and I didn't know it??
If I am God then I am most certainly Atheist!!!!!!!!!!!


I actually went to a large dicussion of Eckhart Tolle's new book, "New Earth". It is amazing what people will believe.

[Andrew Weiss]

I suppose that if you mean by world, our culture, and that we contribute to that culture, then I can accept that. ("This world we live in is the creation of our common consciousness.")
I am thinking that you meant that a bit more literally. It looks to me like you think this is really truly true. You really believe what you said.
In fact it sounds rather dogmatic.
Here are a couple problems that I have with the "new age".

1. It is inherently self contradictory.

2. If Jesus being so good was reincarnated, what hope do I have?

3. THE SINGLE MOST DEPRESSING THOUGHT THAT I CAN IMAGINE IS TO DISCOVER THAT I AM GOD. You mean...I'm it??? I disappoint myself, that is not a quality that I expect from God. Are you going to correct me on that last thought, then I am wrong too??? I am GOd and I didn't know it??
If I am God then I am most certainly Atheist!!!!!!!!!!!


I actually went to a large dicussion of Eckhart Tolle's new book, "New Earth". It is amazing what people will believe.

Actually, what I posted was Buddhist, not new age. I apologize if it came across as dogmatic. I don't ask anyone to accept what I write as some sort of gospel. Even when I teach my meditation classes, all I ask of my students is to trust their own experience.

When I ordained in the Buddhist tradition, one of the vows I took was to alleviate suffering wherever I found it. In Judaism, there's a phrase "tikkun o'lam". It means "to fix the world". It doesn't matter to me whether you see yourself as a manifestation of the Divine or whether you see yourself as God's servant. What does matter to me is that we do our best to make this world better for all of us. I come back to the Dalai Lama's comment: "My religion is kindness." That speaks for me, too.

[AngryFish]

Why is it the Tibetians are rioting?

[chip anderson]

I figured it out a few week-ends ago. God is suffering over our actions, not we over his.

Chip

[LandLord]

Actually, what I posted was Buddhist, not new age. I apologize if it came across as dogmatic. I don't ask anyone to accept what I write as some sort of gospel. Even when I teach my meditation classes, all I ask of my students is to trust their own experience.

When I ordained in the Buddhist tradition, one of the vows I took was to alleviate suffering wherever I found it. In Judaism, there's a phrase "tikkun o'lam". It means "to fix the world". It doesn't matter to me whether you see yourself as a manifestation of the Divine or whether you see yourself as God's servant. What does matter to me is that we do our best to make this world better for all of us. I come back to the Dalai Lama's comment: "My religion is kindness." That speaks for me, too.

Andrew,
What I like about you is
1) you accept others as they are
2) your commitment to alleviate suffering
3) and to improve the world

I strive to acquire those attributes. What gives me a negative impression of Buddhism is the belief that suffering has no benefit or purpose. Am I wrong about Buddhism?