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Thread: Anti slip coating

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    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    Anti slip coating

    Is there such a thing like an anti slip coating that can be put in on ARed lenses (especialy super hydro coated) that will prevent them from turning? It comes of in the edger i guess with water!?I think I red somewhere that satis loh is comming out with something like that.
    Help.

    Chris did you came up with something like that yet?

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    Rising Star
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    When you order Zeiss Advantage it should come with special blocking pads and the clear stickers to put on the lens to prevent it from slipping while edging. I know that certain pads are better for the hydrophobic coatings, and definitely look into the sticker pads.

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    OptiBoardaholic Thumbs's Avatar
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    If your looking for a blocking pad to prevent slipping/turning in your edger, I believe 3/M and SatisLoh have developed a pad called Leap LSE and is only availble from SatisLoh.

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    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    I have the pads. This was something about a clear coat that gets put on the lens in the AR lab and comes off in the process of edging.
    Thanks for the replyes! I currently use the ricky pads in combination with an anti slip blue discs and a newer ones hydro pads from DAC. But I am sick of putting 3 pads on and still sometimes it slips!

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    Yes there is such a thing. It is patented by Essilor. At least that is the reason why I hear that others aren't doing it. The mfg of the equipment that one of my labs uses for their house AR is working on it. Word is that they can't get around the patent.

    It's just what I hear. I don't need to hear from anyone that claims that they own the patent. If that's the case; sue Essilor.

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    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    Does Crizal A have it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LENNY View Post
    Does Crizal A have it?
    Yes, Alize has a blue coating over top that you wipe off after edging

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcE View Post
    Yes there is such a thing. It is patented by Essilor. At least that is the reason why I hear that others aren't doing it. The mfg of the equipment that one of my labs uses for their house AR is working on it. Word is that they can't get around the patent.

    It's just what I hear. I don't need to hear from anyone that claims that they own the patent. If that's the case; sue Essilor.
    Does anyone have the patent information if in fact it does exist?

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly, I heard from my Zeiss rep that it's the process that is patented by Essilor, not the actual coating. I think the blue coat is a MgF2 (Magnesium Fluoride) coating that you're talking about. Maybe Chris can stuff some MgF2 into a can of hairspray and invent a new way to apply it?

    We have zero trouble with our hydrophobic AR lenses torquing in the edger, but we use the same clear pads and then the leap pads and run all AR lenses in "soft" mode on our Santinelli edger to take stuff off more slowly. Our older Optronics edger with the flow rate on the slowest setting would still torque any hydrophobic AR lens that wasn't CR39. The Santinelli has been a dream come true with these new lenses.
    -Steve

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    This is the link for their patent pending:

    http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/fetch.j...ERY=WO02092524

    In an earlier thread about this it seems the patent was denied. From the wording of their patent application they are "depositing" a coating on top of the Super AR which sounds like they are doing this in the AR coatig chamber rather than as a dip coat. How do others read the wording?

    Doc

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    That would likely be accurate, because it's only applied to the front surface of the lens.

    BTW, Lenny, what edger are you using?
    -Steve

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Exclamation Get smart..........................

    Quote Originally Posted by snowmonster View Post

    BTW, Lenny, what edger are you using?
    It is not a matter of what edger you are using, they all clamp the lens with pressure.................you can compare the slick coat to the coating on paper backing for self sticking postage stamps. The glue will not stick on it.

    The only natural and reasonable, least expensive solution is to purchase the lenses without the slick coat......................cut the lenses the normal way without slippage..............and then apply the slick coat yourself after edging.

    Maybe Chris can stuff some MgF2 into a can of hair spray and invent a new way to apply it?

    Magnesium Fluoride can not be stuffed into a spray can, it has to be evaporated in a vacuum chamber. Just look at the periodic table that contains all the possibilities you could add to a lens at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table_%

    Magnesium fluoride has been evaporated and used for AR coatings forever, and I dint think you can patent a process that is old.

    The slick coat when applied before edging will be a problem for the optician for a long time to come.

    However a polysiloxane from Dow Corning we use and adapt to be applied chemically instead under vacuum will do the same trick as all the other slick coats applied in factory under vacuum.

    This chemical applicationalso has a feature that none of the factory applied slick coats have:

    Ant-Fog (disspates fogging in 8 seconds)
    Anti-Static (no dust attraction)

    To conclude I do not see any slippage problems if you are properly organized and can provide the same service for a lot less.


    Chris Ryser
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    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Magnesium Fluoride can not be stuffed into a spray can, it has to be evaporated in a vacuum chamber. Just look at the periodic table that contains all the possibilities you could add to a lens at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table_%
    Ok, that was a joke.

    I will say this about Chris's hydrophobic product - he sent us a sample about 2 months ago and we've been using it on top of our polycarb AR lenses that we stock and it definitely does make them more slick. My optician and I have occasionally taken an Alize or Teflon lens and compared the surface slickatude with one of our Vision Ease AR lenses with the Chris Ryser coating and we can tell a slight difference with our fingers but it's fairly negligible. It certainly is a lot nicer not having to worry about the lens twisting in the edger.

    But the edger does make a difference. We were at the point with our older Horizon edger where we wouldn't even try a Teflon AR lens because of the axis problems. Alize wouldn't matter because of the top coat.
    -Steve

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    piece of tape

    I use a small piece of surface tape on the front and back side unless I have some of the stickers from the manufacturer. Also, as had been said, make sure to match the base curve of the block to the lens.
    Last edited by KStraker; 11-02-2007 at 01:42 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowmonster View Post
    That would likely be accurate, because it's only applied to the front surface of the lens.

    BTW, Lenny, what edger are you using?
    Kappa CTD

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    Stick out tongue We have zero slippage issues with hyrdo coatings!

    :finger:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    It is not a matter of what edger you are using, they all clamp the lens with pressure.................


    The slick coat when applied before edging will be a problem for the optician for a long time to come.

    As a matter of fact the equipment used makes all the difference in the world; does any 10 year old edger process trivex with hydo and not have slippage- I DOUBT IT!
    The newer machines have variable feed rates by material and motor speeds that are specific to materials; this combined with a "soft" mode eliminates most problems.

    We have upgraded our wheel to one from SuperAbraisive and use the hydro pads on the block and a clear one on the back of the lens. We almost never use the "soft" mode since we changed the roughing wheel.

    The only problem I see with slick coat's is for those who don't upgrade the equipment processing the lenese to keep up with technology.

    By the way, we process 70% Phoenix trivex and 100% of our lenses used have a hydro coating on them. This is the toughest combination for any equipment to process and we use our ME-1000 with no slippage.

    You have some great knowledge;
    It would be nice if you looked to provide solid reasons to utilize new technolgy and not knock it. Most people reading this forum want solutions; not excuses for failure to accept new technology.

    The more help we can provide each other, the better chance we all have of success.

    Craig

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    OptiBoard Professional Kyle's Avatar
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    AR slippage

    I've had minimal problems with slippage on my old 7070Sx from Santinelli.

    Why?

    • lenses are room temperature
    • lenses are thoroughly clean
    • I use the largest block practical (also decreases chance for coating breakdown as clamping pressure is distributed over a larger area)
    • I use the appropriate block curve to maximize surface contact
    • I apply light compression of the block against my bench before edging to ensure uniform adhesion - you can actually notice the increased lens/leap/block contact
    • lenses are edged immediately after blocking
    • I monitor the edging process instead of just walking away

    I did have a few Kodak CleAR lenses slip before they modified their formula but I could count on one hand the number of slippages I've personally had within the last 3 years (all of TWO).

    I regularly use Teflon, Satin, Super ECP, Alize, CleAR coatings.

    About a year ago the Santinelli mechanic (YOU DA MAN, DURAND!!) adjusted clamping pressure to just slightly above the default value (mainly his suggestion, but since I'd had that "flood" of two slippages, I agreed).

    Oh, and I use standard leap pads for the most part (unless I run out)

    I don't have recent experience with other machines but in my findings over the last 18 years lens slippages occur mostly when rushing through a job. What it boils down to is that the new coatings just aren't as forgiving as the old. In my opinion they don't necessarily warrant a modification of procedure unless you simply weren't doing it right in the first place.

    kk

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    :finger:

    As a matter of fact the equipment used makes all the difference in the world;

    ....................... if you looked to provide solid reasons to utilize new technolgy and not knock it. Most people reading this forum want solutions; not excuses for failure to accept new technology.
    Obviously I am not involved at all in mechanical technology so I can not make any judgements in that department.

    However I have a pretty good track record in what I am doing and have come up with some new technologies long before the rest of the pack. So if you say that equipment makes all the difference you have made your point.

    Now you have to tell us how much it cost's to switch to the "equipment that makes all the difference in the world".

    Only then Optiboarders can judge what fits their pocket better.................replace the 10 year equipment at $ ??,???.??

    ...........or save $ ??.?? on every par of lenses purchased without a slick coat and still use the 10 year old machine.
    Chris Ryser
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    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Chris, I can tell you that using Alize, Teflon and Carat Advantage puts money in my pocket that make the edger worthwhile.

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    OptiBoardaholic Thumbs's Avatar
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    Lenny,
    You may want to check to make sure the chuck pressures are set correctly on your CTD. You can program different pressures based on block size, materials you are cutting, and cycle speed (EAS program, the icon with the single and dual star). To do this you will want to turn your edger on, but do not initiatize. When the Essilor screen appears, hold down button # 9 and #2 at the same time. The blocking pressure screen will appear and you will see all materials in the first column and block diameters in the next 4 columns combined with EAS icons. Program according to the diagram on the right-side of the screen (small arrow, heavy arrow and water goblet).

    Good Luck

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    Technology is expensive!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Now you have to tell us how much it cost's to switch to the "equipment that makes all the difference in the world".

    Only then Optiboarders can judge what fits their pocket better.................replace the 10 year equipment at $ ??,???.??

    ...........or save $ ??.?? on every par of lenses purchased without a slick coat and still use the 10 year old machine.
    My machine sells for apprx. 60K, depending on the options and a basic machine that does not drill is in the range of 30K; this equipment allows us to process the materials and coatings necessary to offer what is best for the client, not what we can process.

    I am all for your slick coat and wish you the best with it; anything that can help us provide the client a better product is fine with me. If I didn't have the equipment we have, I would certainly be interested in the slick coat.

    Keep pushing new ideas and technology. In the end, the consumers will decide what they want and don't want, but we as a group need to offer and explain the best the industry has to offer.

    Thanks for your input.
    Craig

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    AR Committee Meeting at 2006 VEE

    I attended a meeting hosted by the AR Committee and the VCA at VEE in 2006.

    The open meeting was a set up as a forum to share what could be shared on edging super slick AR lenses. There was a mix of labs (independent and retail), lens manufacturers and the industry equipment and consumable suppliers.

    What became clear, is that the optical industry is at a crossroads not seen since the introduction of CR39 plastic lenses that crashed the mineral glass party in the 1970's.

    Several independent lab principles stood up for the uncut market, a big part of their business. Something had to be done to help this group otherwise the only uncut business will be in CR39 and Poly, maybe with a basic AR.

    There is no silver bullet. The discussions got heated, ebbed and flowed, but in the end the consensus was todays edgers need to be able to handle new lens materials but also new lens treatments. The materials and treatments are not likely to be friendlier than what we have now.

    I had dinner with an east coast lab principle at VEW. He told me about the new automation in his lab. The edgers adjust to the type of lens material, AR and frame specifications...all from reading a barcode. His yields are paying for the equipment.

    Jim
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    Quote Originally Posted by LENNY View Post
    Kappa CTD
    I posted about this before. Here a few things to try just to make sure that everything is work as good as your equipment can.

    Use the red blocks from BPI. They are flexible and adjust to the BC, so you get full contact. They are called G/K for gamma/kappa.

    I clamp them for a minute or so in the edger.

    Make sure that you have NO water dripping on the roughing wheel. Just a few drops can cause slippage on a poly or trivex lens

    I just bought one of those "trivex" wheels from superabrasives too. I haven't installed it yet but hope it will help on both poly and trivex, which is 70% of my lenses.

    Of course you know all the rest: clean the front, use tape or the sticky pad, use "fragile" mode, good and fresh leap pads.

    And finally, if the lenses are a high minus (and high value), I will edge them three eyesizes too big and them realign and reblock and re-edge to size. Time consuming, but when the lenses cost $XXX and take a week to get with that great AR, you gotta be careful.

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    No more special pads as well as essilor patent...

    ...since a company based in FL USA has developed a new product that is spin coated onto coated lenses with, as a last layer, a SuperHydrophobic material.
    The Essilor patent includes every kind of transparent coating applied over a Super Hydrophobic material to make easier the edging... where is the trick? Easy, the spin coated material is colored... and it could be easily removed whashing the lenses after the drilling, the edging and the mounting.
    Bye bye.

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    Blue Jumper No slipping..............

    Quote Originally Posted by LENNY View Post

    Chris did you came up with something like that yet?
    We are still looking to find something easy to work with and that works.

    However if you are in a help desoerate mode you can always get a hydrophobic top coat solution......................order your lenses without it..............put the lenses through edging and just before mounting them into the frame you dip them into the solution and that's it, they will air cure in a couple of minutes..

    No turned lenses, no slipping besides that, you save big bucks on every job.

    http://optochemicals.com/products/info_easyclean.htm


    http://optochemicals.com/products/in...easyclean1.htm
    Chris Ryser
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    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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