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Thread: Help! Nidek Intelligent? Blocker ICE-9000

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Confused Help! Nidek Intelligent? Blocker ICE-9000

    G'Day All,
    I am seeking help,advice,suggestions in relation to our expensive and erratic Nidek Ice-9000 intelligent(?)blocker.
    It works fine on basic lenses,but the problems begin when you try to block high minus bifocal lenses, high cyl bifocal lenses or ground prism lenses(s/v,bifocal or progressive).
    In my opinion there is a fault in the design,in that as the light source passes through the lens, the image deviates due to the prismatic effect,so that on the screen you dont see the true position of the lens for blocking.
    The result is high minus/cyl/prism bifocals with segs set at different heights,incorrect heights etc.
    The sales technicians have finally admitted the built in camera in these units has a problem with prismatic effect on some lenses and claim that Nidek have suggested dotting up a plano lens,positioning the dot as if you were to block the lens,then place the prismatic lens OVER the plano lens,lining up the two lenses, then block the lens! (is it just me,or does this sound ridiculous) I reckon the light will pass through the plano lens,then through the prismatic lens,then deviate,giving the same result as before.
    Our old (much less expensive & non intelligent?)blocker never had any problems in this regard & was much more accurate.
    I would appreciate any feedback from anyone who has one of these machines that has a sensible solution.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder mshimp's Avatar
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    Nidek ice blockers

    Strong cyls at oblique angles and rx prisms/ lots of problems. No way to fix it that I,m aware of. I just have to compensate for them. Too bad they don,t have a way to neutralize the prism or the cyl. I believe gerber/coburns made a stab at trying to do this with one of there finish blocking systems.

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    This makes me extremely happy that I just went with their manual CE-1 blocker that was included (at no charge) in our edger purchase from Vision Systems. Great service with them, by the way.

    -Steve

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    RETIRED JRS's Avatar
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    Is the problem associated with the centering routines when the system does the lens analysis function? Or is it truely a paralaxing (sp) issue?
    J. R. Smith


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    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    I'm sure it is a paralax type issue, due to the image deviation, we block these type of lenses in manual mode because automatic mode gives even worse results.
    I am still amazed that we were never made aware of this problem by the sales technicians (either they had not done their homework or were worried we wouldn't buy it if we were made aware(which we wouldn't have).We had to find out the Hard(and expensive)Way.

  6. #6
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    This makes me extremely happy that I just went with their manual CE-1 blocker that was included (at no charge) in our edger purchase from Vision Systems. Great service with them, by the way.
    -Steve

    The weird thing is that you expect the wizz-bang top of the line Nidek Blocker to give you accurate & relatively trouble free performance! this certainly 'aint the case'. Our other Lab has a much cheaper more manual type blocker & has no problems with complicated lenses.
    I think it is a case of Nidek trying to Dazzle us with "bells & whistles" & losing sight of the reason we want the best ie. accurate finished lenses!
    My advice to Nidek is K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

    - Aussie

  7. #7
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    As I said before the Blocker works fine on basic lenses,but just can not cope with prism/high cyls or high powered bifocals and this really should be made clear in the "sales pitch"

    - Aussie
    Last edited by Aussie; 10-11-2007 at 06:40 AM.

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie View Post
    I am still amazed that we were never made aware of this problem by the sales technicians (either they had not done their homework or were worried we wouldn't buy it if we were made aware(which we wouldn't have).We had to find out the Hard(and expensive)Way.
    I'm totally not amazed. Their job is to sell stuff.

    -Steve

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    Vision Equipment OptiBoard Corporate Sponsor Leo Hadley Jr's Avatar
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    Thanks for the plug Steve :D

    I never really could justify the cost of an "intellegent" blocker The greatest blockers I have ever used were always well under a grand.

    OP,

    Is it possible to manually dot the lenses and block them on that machine? I never had a chance to play with an intellegent blocker.
    Leo Hadley Jr
    Vision Equipment
    T: 855.776.2020

    www.visionequipmentinc.com

  10. #10
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowmonster View Post
    I'm totally not amazed. Their job is to sell stuff.

    -Steve
    Yeah,that may be so,but their reputation becomes sullied in the short term cash grab & no repeat business from us!

  11. #11
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpticLabRat View Post
    Thanks for the plug Steve :D

    I never really could justify the cost of an "intellegent" blocker The greatest blockers I have ever used were always well under a grand.

    OP,

    Is it possible to manually dot the lenses and block them on that machine? I never had a chance to play with an intellegent blocker.
    Yes, Because of the afore mentioned problems with complicated lenses, the manual mode gives a better result than automatic mode, but it is erratic & unpredictable because of the inherent flaw in the set up.(light source Below the lens and the Marking Grid Above the lens - so with prism/high cyls/high powered bifocals the image on the Grid is not in the true position because of the prismatic effect of the Lens.)
    For an intelligent blocker it has a pretty low IQ!

    -Aussie
    Last edited by Aussie; 10-11-2007 at 09:06 AM.

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Trevor D's Avatar
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    Crier

    Hey Aussie,

    I've noticed problems with bifocals and progressives that higher powers (and even low cyls) are coming out with a consistent 1/2 mm difference
    in height. 1/2 a mm is not too much concern really but when it is on nearly every pair then I think it's a worry!

    Have you found any axis problems occurring? I'm finding the left lenses are twisted slightly off axis as well! (I block everything except low powered SV on manual mode.)

    As for compensating the parallax error, I remember reading something in the instruction manual about there being some kind of compensation mode you can switch on or alter. I'll have to have a look on Monday.

    Trev

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    This is crap - sell the "intelligent" blocker and get a used CE-1 for a lot less. Seems like a big waste of money.

    Then go buy a sign for the front of your office. Adam - are you listening?
    -Steve

  14. #14
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor D View Post
    Have you found any axis problems occurring? I'm finding the left lenses are twisted slightly off axis as well! (I block everything except low powered SV on manual mode.)
    Do you have axis, or uneven O.C. height problems on Single vision? We dont,only on B/F,Prog.&ground prism lenses,that is why I am convinced it is a prismatic effect problem that the blocker cant handle.
    Recently I had to block a high cyl BiFocal.On both Lenses I could see that the image of the seg on the screen was not an accurate seg shape, I had to block& reblock till I could see that the chuck was sitting straight on both lenses & the same height on both lenses.
    A Manual Blocker doesn't have these problems!
    As far as I'm concerned It is a white elephant

  15. #15
    OptiBoard Apprentice Trevor D's Avatar
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    On SV with higher Rx (mostly high index stock), I was getting uneven OC heights. I started dotting them up and blocking manually which fixed the problem.

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    I am wondering if they were standard Hi index or whether aspheric type Hi index that might 'confuse' the 'intelligent' internal camera.
    Have you had any feedback on the problems from the mob that sold it to you?

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    Master OptiBoarder mshimp's Avatar
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    I have never had any problems with high minus lens of any kind. However I always block in PAS mode (manual?)

  18. #18
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mshimp View Post
    I have never had any problems with high minus lens of any kind.
    Just Single vision or is that including Bifocal,Progressive,& ground prism? & if so What'syour secret? I block them in manual mode too & nothing consistently works.

  19. #19
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    We did a trial with the Ice-9000 and experienced the same problems. We talked with Santinelli and we decided that we had a bad blocker or something. They sent us a new one to trial. Same Problems. We figured that it was too much $ to have block lenses manually. We went with the Ice Mini and it works fine for a lot less $.

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    My last company went with more basic age old design manual blockers because they were free with the Nideks edgers, and having now used the ICE elsewhere, not only did I get the problems you described but the image jumped through 90 degrees like a mad thing on basic SV spheres, and if the lens didn't cut it meant going all the way back to the beginning. Too much hassle, but then much of our surfacing equipment had not progressed in the last 20 years, because it worked.
    Optical technicians in Britain.

    http://www.optiglaze.co.uk/forum/

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by just eyes View Post
    We did a trial with the Ice-9000 and experienced the same problems. We talked with Santinelli and we decided that we had a bad blocker or something. They sent us a new one to trial. Same Problems. We figured that it was too much $ to have block lenses manually. We went with the Ice Mini and it works fine for a lot less $.
    This is the thing that Blows me Away, Nidek's top of the line expensive blocker Can't handle lenses that Nidek's cheaper 'low rent' blocker has no problems with! Shouldn't they recall these expensive 'Lemons', and fix these problems instead of the head in the sand attitude, continuing to sell them to unsuspecting Suckers,who expect Quality from Nidek! The problem is their design flaw & obvious lack of testing!

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGC_man View Post
    My last company went with more basic age old design manual blockers because they were free with the Nideks edgers, and having now used the ICE elsewhere, not only did I get the problems you described but the image jumped through 90 degrees like a mad thing on basic SV spheres, and if the lens didn't cut it meant going all the way back to the beginning. Too much hassle,
    After our experience with this monstrosity, I wouldn't buy anything other than a Manual blocker ever again!

  23. #23
    Master OptiBoarder mshimp's Avatar
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    Aussie, we use the older model ice-2000 and the only problems we have are with ground prism and with strong cyls at oblique angles. cyl problem only with multifocals

  24. #24
    OptiBoard Apprentice Aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mshimp View Post
    Aussie, we use the older model ice-2000 and the only problems we have are with ground prism and with strong cyls at oblique angles. cyl problem only with multifocals
    I saw a picture of a Nidek ice 2000 on the net,It looks the same basic principle as the ice 9000 and it seems it gives similar results with prism & high cyls,if anything it sounds better than the ice 9000 if it doesn't have problems with bifocals.
    Thanks Mate!

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Trevor D's Avatar
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    mshimp, how do you get around the oblique cyl problem?


    My boss is thinking of returning back to a manual blocker as this thing is costing us too much in remakes. My latest one was caused by a pair of progressives finish up with different heights because of differing amounts of prescribed base up and base down prism in each eye.

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